Spirited News, Observations & Thoughts IV

[Goofyernmost]

I know you are opting out of this argument, but I am going to respond anyway for others who are reading.

It doesn't reduce the amount of attractions others can experience, if they, too, make the effort to fully utilize Fastpass. But even then, in the end, you are not riding more with Fastpass than without it. That is the illusion Fastpass creates and why people are in favor of it. Instead you are doing more work to ride essentially the same amount that you would be able to ride if it didn't exist.

Ride capacities are fixed. There is no way to somehow increase their capacity and how much everyone can ride in a day. What Fastpass does is change how you wait.

In my previous post I mentioned why the myth that "if everyone were just using one line it would be the same wait time anyway" is wrong. With 80-95% of the ride's capacity being devoted to the Fastpass line, you are letting a higher number of people "skip" in front of you - in addition to the people that are physically in front of you - than would ever be possible with one solitary line, in which the number of people who will ride before you is fixed when you enter the queue.

Its also worth noting that the distribution of crowds, as well as the number of Fastpasses distributed, is quite different than when it debuted in 1999. In the early days, remember how they were generally always gone by mid afternoon? Today you can still grab a Fastpass for Space Mountain 90 minutes before the park closes. At midnight. Why? Because when there is demand, enough Fastpasses are distributed that the Fastpass line is now the "normal line." Add in the well documented GAC Abuse and other forms of scamming and abuse, and more people are entering via the Fastpass queue than ever before. You aren't bypassing the normal line. You're scheduling a time to use the normal line.

This will go in circles because having a Fastpass and walking up to an attraction and riding with minimal wait will always make people happy, but seriously ask any Cast Member that has ever worked a Fastpass attraction, be it college program newbie or ex-imagineer, and they will tell you the exact same thing. They'll also tell you that it creates a staggering amount of negative situations in the parks. And not just the typical "man, people are stupid!" hyperbole. More than any other single solitary thing at WDW, Fastpass is directly or indirectly responsible for the majority of complaints in the parks.

In totally agree with what you're saying. I do have one question though. Like the amount spent on NGE every time it get mentioned the figure gets higher and higher and higher.

I remember distinctly when I spoke to the person at WDW about my concerns, that I was told that it was around 35% that were going to be utilizing FP's because that was all that they were making available. Logically if you are standing in a standby line and you physically look at the numbers of people, both in the standby line and those passing through the FP line that ratio seems about right. On the other hand, logically if they were pushing 80 to 95% of all riders through FP the FP line would become horrendously long. The ride is only going to be able to put a specific number of people on the ride at any given time. That is an absolute. You can not squeeze 95% of the crowd in that quickly. It would end up total gridlock in both lines. I wish now that I new, from a black and white source what they numbers are when it comes to FP distribution, but I cannot wrap my head around numbers that high. It may seem that way when stuck in a standby line, but, it doesn't seem possible to me. They would have to change the name to Way More People Then The Standby Line Pass or the HardlygoingtobeFast-pass!

 

[flynnibus]

@Goofyernmost - 45mins ago I posted an open question on my facebook page to see what my acquaintances thought of FP. This is people I grew up with, people I work with, social circles, neighbors, etc.. not a Disney-centric sampling. The question was simple...

"quick one word replies... Do you think Fastpass was a good thing or bad thing for your trip?"

So far (45mins) - 6 replies.. all have replied GOOD.

 

[doctornick]

@Goofyernmost - 45mins ago I posted an open question on my facebook page to see what my acquaintances thought of FP. This is people I grew up with, people I work with, social circles, neighbors, etc.. not a Disney-centric sampling. The question was simple...

"quick one word replies... Do you think Fastpass was a good thing or bad thing for your trip?"

So far (45mins) - 6 replies.. all have replied GOOD.

That's the thing. Most people view FP as a positive (in my experience). They picture it as "skipping the line" and don't realize/recognize that it results in them waiting in standby longer for other rides. The idea essentially is that the standby lines are "long" anyway and this allows you to avoid them for some rides.

Now, I get it, I fully understand that FP does not make overall waits shorter because capacity is fixed. I realize that it's just a boondoggle to make people feel good about skipping lines. I realize that some superusers benefit, other regular users have relatively neutral impact (shorter waits sometimes, longer waits other times) and that non-users are worse off. But I think that by any large the opinions of guests who recognize FP argue that it is a "good thing" and benefits them.

 

[flynnibus]

Now, I get it, I fully understand that FP does not make overall waits shorter because capacity is fixed. I realize that it's just a boondoggle to make people feel good about skipping lines. I realize that some superusers benefit, other regular users have relatively neutral impact (shorter waits sometimes, longer waits other times) and that non-users are worse off

The only people that lose are those who don't use FP at all.. or who don't utilize their time while deferred to do something they enjoy. As long as some attractions have high waits, and others less.. you'll be able to come out head.

Think about it.. if there were no FP, standby lines would still be long for marque attractions and actually can climb higher. Why? Because if you know waiting is the only way you'll get on that ride, your tolerance for waiting for that attraction will increase. So people will be more willing to wait in longer SB lines. The speed of the Standby line really has no bearing on your decision to get in line or not. The posted wait time already takes into account the speed of the line.. they don't advertise how many people are in front of you but you expected wait. If that's 5 ppl/min or 50 ppl/min you don't know or care.. you care if it's a 15min wait or 60min wait.

 

[flynnibus]

You can not squeeze 95% of the crowd in that quickly. It would end up total gridlock in both lines

No, simply the standby line would put less people through per hour.. and the wait time would climb to the point where people were no longer willing to get in line and then it would stabalize... just like it does today. People do not get in line based on the people/hr of the line.. they get in or not based on the expected wait.

The difference is you have more need to get that FP because less people will be getting through standby. If FP is still too scarce.. then SB waits will increase as people become more desperate to ride.

 

[Goofyernmost]

@Goofyernmost - 45mins ago I posted an open question on my facebook page to see what my acquaintances thought of FP. This is people I grew up with, people I work with, social circles, neighbors, etc.. not a Disney-centric sampling. The question was simple...

"quick one word replies... Do you think Fastpass was a good thing or bad thing for your trip?"

So far (45mins) - 6 replies.. all have replied GOOD.

I am going to respond but this will be it because we are getting nowhere. You have your experiences, I have mine. I see things from one direction you see them from another. Just the way we are. Most people that feel FP is great only think of it in terms of what they got at that moment. None of them used a stop watch and really know if they saved anytime overall or not. They just know that for that particular attraction they were able to go to the front of a line of suckers tired looking people. They complained when they didn't have a FP because then the whole thing became real except this time they were the suckers tired looking people. So comparatively, FP was the best thing since sliced bread. On an individual bases from people that use it, it's wonderful as an overview of everybody's experience it leaves something to be desired. It's all in how you look at it and how much thought that one puts into the answer. So let's just agree to disagree in this particular conversation, we have already started to repeat ourselves in multitudes.

 

[flynnibus]

I am going to respond but this will be it because we are getting nowhere. You have your experiences, I have mine

They aren't just my experiences. That's why I solicited unbiased feedback from a diverse audience to illustrate for you its not just 'my experiences'. From single guys, to moms with kids, to dads with kids, from single women.. all of them have said 'good' so far in my unscientific survey. Value is always in the eye of the beholder. It doesn't take a lot of sleuthing to conclude FP is valued by guests.. people don't use it just because they be screwed if otherwise. They use it because they appreciate the benefit. Even if you thought they didn't get ahead in waits.. the point of not having to be trapped in a line is valued to many people.

It's not snake oil.. and people's actions speak far greater than their words when it comes to putting down FP.

 

[Nubs70]

They aren't just my experiences. That's why I solicited unbiased feedback from a diverse audience to illustrate for you its not just 'my experiences'. From single guys, to moms with kids, to dads with kids, from single women.. all of them have said 'good' so far in my unscientific survey. Value is always in the eye of the beholder. It doesn't take a lot of sleuthing to conclude FP is valued by guests.. people don't use it just because they be screwed if otherwise. They use it because they appreciate the benefit. Even if you thought they didn't get ahead in waits.. the point of not having to be trapped in a line is valued to many people.

It's not snake oil.. and people's actions speak far greater than their words when it comes to putting down FP.

My first trip to the Petri dish was years ago. It was not until the last 2 days that I discovered and made use of fast pass. I rode many more rides and had a much better time in the last 2 days than the previous 4 because I was not stuck in a physical line and could do other things while I was "waiting" in the virtual line.

 

[flynnibus]

My first trip to the Petri dish was years ago. It was not until the last 2 days that I discovered and made use of fast pass. I rode many more rides and had a much better time in the last 2 days than the previous 4 because I was not stuck in a line and could do other things while I was "waiting" in the virtual line.

Thx for sharing. What you describe is what I've observed as well... people aren't n00bs forever

 

[luv]

IMHO the number 1 reason is basic math. Universal currently has about 2,000 hotel rooms. WDW 25,000+. If you offered front of line access to guests staying on property at WDW half the people would gain access. The lines would be pretty long and those not staying on property would suffer. Eventually off site guests would either stop coming or buy in to the Express Pass option. Then everyone would have it. The whole system would collapse. At Universal the 2,000 rooms make up a much smaller percentage of total guests so it doesn't make not having express pass unbearable. What is interesting is the new Uni resort almost doubles their room capacity. Will these people all get Express pass too? If so will it result in much longer standby lines?

No, the people who stay in the new hotel will not be part of the FOTL thing. At least, that's what we've been hearing so far.

I, too, believe that Disney has been trying to copy what Uni has. Uni got EP and Disney soon followed with FP. Uni did FOTL and Disney is trying their hardest to find an equivalent.

Not only do I think this will be for Disney hotel guests only...I think that people staying in the more expensive places will get more FPs and such. But that is just a guess on my part and I have no info to support it.

 

[ford91exploder]

That is one thing I have wondered. People have often stated here how FP creates bad feelings among guests when they see so many people being let in ahead of them in line. And that is for a system that everyone has equal access to. Meanwhile, Universal has a system that also allows people to "butt into line" and it's not a big deal apparently. Should the Express Pass cause negative reactions for people "checking out" Universal?

UNI handles the merge better, As the EP people are merged into the line in car sized groups, where disney stops the standby line and lets in a huge block of FP users so the standby line stops at UNI the standby lines never stop moving. This is why EP probably does not create such bad feelings.

 

[GoofGoof]

No, the people who stay in the new hotel will not be part of the FOTL thing. At least, that's what we've been hearing so far.

I, too, believe that Disney has been trying to copy what Uni has. Uni got EP and Disney soon followed with FP. Uni did FOTL and Disney is trying their hardest to find an equivalent.

Not only do I think this will be for Disney hotel guests only...I think that people staying in the more expensive places will get more FPs and such. But that is just a guess on my part and I have no info to support it.

So pretty much they will be copying the entire Universal model. Universal offers front of the line access only to guests staying on site now, but once their value resort opens they won't be offering it to those guests just the ones staying in a deluxe resort. I'm agreeing with @willtravel and @doctornick. If Disney tried this at WDW there would be a whole lot of screaming.

 

[englanddg]

So pretty much they will be copying the entire Universal model. Universal offers front of the line access only to guests staying on site now, but once their value resort opens they won't be offering it to those guests just the ones staying in a deluxe resort. I'm agreeing with @willtravel and @doctornick. If Disney tried this at WDW there would be a whole lot of screaming.

Sortof.

Universal sells limited versions of their Express Pass, but recently...Universal now sells the Unlimited Express Pass to general guests as well, which carries the same benefits as the resort guests.

But...it's very expensive.

 

[luv]

A lot of people complained when Uni ripped out the old EP machines. Anyone who visited Uni that didn't stay in the hotels was ticked off. The ability to buy it when you come helped some.

Uni also sells an AP that includes EP after 4:00 p.m.

Although it will cost you (in some cases costing a lot!), you can still get the EP if you want it badly enough.

We have no idea what Disney is planning to. My guess was 1 FP a day for Values, 3 for Mods and 5 for Deluxe...but I literally made those numbers up and have no idea what they're going to do.

 

[71jason]

Seems like there are folks 'round here who have an overly romantic notion of pre-FP days (and I am not referring to a single poster, even if it seems like I'm responding to @Goofyernmost).

Not how I remember it at all.

All I can say is that FP has been a huge PLUS (pun intended) at least for me. But FP+, from all I've read/heard/seen, will turn that plus into a big, fat minus.

In fairness, how many fans on here actually remember pre-FP days? It's been a while. Several hotels and a park ago, too. Honestly, at this point I don't know you that you can compare pre-FP with today. Almost a quarter century, the Orlando market has changed dramatically.

Starting to sound like a broken record here (that metaphor is also lost on at least half the readership), but Universal did away with its clone of FP roughly a decade ago. Lines went down noticeably. Even with new crowds from Potter, they rarely go up to the old levels.

And while it may be a plus for you--you're a high-knowledge user, who is going to go to WDW no matter what (just like me and anybody else who spends enough time here to be a regular). The average guest uses like 0.6 FPs per day. That's not helping them in a meaningful way.

 

[Funmeister]

Shops and restaurants announced...for I-Drive! I don't think Disney has yet to announce a single tenant. What are hey waiting for? Oh...tenants.

http://www.orlandosentinel.com/business/os-international-drive-construction-20130827,0,1712222.story

 

[GoofGoof]

UNI handles the merge better, As the EP people are merged into the line in car sized groups, where disney stops the standby line and lets in a huge block of FP users so the standby line stops at UNI the standby lines never stop moving. This is why EP probably does not create such bad feelings.

Volume has to factor in too. I've heard on these boards that some rides at WDW have a very high percentage (as high as 90%) of capacity available via FP. That makes for a lot more FP returns. Probably less than 20% of guests at Universal stay on property so the volume never gets that high.

 

[71jason]

Shops and restaurants announced...for I-Drive! I don't think Disney has yet to announce a single tenant. What are hey waiting for? Oh...tenants.

http://www.orlandosentinel.com/business/os-international-drive-construction-20130827,0,1712222.story

Yeah, those were actually announced last year, I believe--at least half, I remember hearing about Chuy's before the Kissimmee branch opened up, and also Red Robin and Buffalo Wild Wings. That's the way most developments work.

 

[GoofGoof]

Sortof.

Universal sells limited versions of their Express Pass, but recently...Universal now sells the Unlimited Express Pass to general guests as well, which carries the same benefits as the resort guests.

But...it's very expensive.

A lot of people complained when Uni ripped out the old EP machines. Anyone who visited Uni that didn't stay in the hotels was ticked off. The ability to buy it when you come helped some.

Uni also sells an AP that includes EP after 4:00 p.m.

Although it will cost you (in some cases costing a lot!), you can still get the EP if you want it badly enough.

We have no idea what Disney is planning to. My guess was 1 FP a day for Values, 3 for Mods and 5 for Deluxe...but I literally made those numbers up and have no idea what they're going to do.

"Very expensive" and "in some cases costing a lot"...all words that are music to the ears of TDO.

I remember @ParentsOf4 had a few posts where he had a similar theory to your tier system for FP+ for the resorts. Then since this is the new perk for staying on property they eliminate EMHs altogether and save a bunch on labor costs.

 

[luv]

[

"Very expensive" and "in some cases costing a lot"...all words that are music to the ears of TDO.

I remember @ParentsOf4 had a few posts where he had a similar theory to your tier system for FP+ for the resorts. Then since this is the new perk for staying on property they eliminate EMHs altogether and save a bunch on labor costs.

Oh, yeah. I think EMHs are totally on their way out. Since Disney went to the morning & night EMHs, they haven't been a big perk, anyway...IMO.