Spirited News, Observations & Thoughts IV

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Pentacat

Well-Known Member
Oh, I'll be the first to categorize it as a puff piece. It mainly has one goal: to point out that the Universal love-fest (and now-common Disney bashing) is starting to tilt into groupthink.

The problem is even if a very small part of the public (the hardcore "base" if you will) may see Universal taking the lead it only matters if TWDC/TDO feels that heat. I'd say that the lack of announcements or progress is a pretty good sign that they don't feel it one bit. It's either that or they are all so enamored with Nextgen that they don't feel the need to play catch up with UNI.
 

Goofyernmost

Well-Known Member
So the original FastPass was designed to get more money from guests. The unintended consequence was an increased guest experience. They touted FastPass as a guest friendly way to experience their favorite attractions with limited lines. They built up goodwill with many guests, even if that wasn't their goal to begin with.

As I caught no fish or sharks with my first to casts, I am giving up fishing this week. I will probably put some effort into fleshing out a few more days of "Trudy" and her family, since there are many layers yet to come. I do like the decrease in insults and personal attacks lately and appreciate those that help limit that.

*1023*
The unintended consequence of Fastpass was a limited guest experience. It did not and does not equally share the upgraded experience. It never has and it never will. It doesn't matter if you call it Fastpass, Fastpass +, Fastpass +++++++, it still only enhances a few at the expense of the rest. The + only means that they have added yet another level of crappiness to and already crappy system. The original FP is one of those items that looked good on paper, but in reality was more detrimental then not. However, because of Disney's reputation of Warm and Fuzzy for all, people just kind of overlooked the negative and somehow figured that it would all equal out for them. They stood in standby and fumed while obnoxious "special" guests skipped their way up to the front and made them stand in the sun that much longer. Their thought...well at some point I'll get me one of them thar magical pieces of paper and I will be the one skipping on by them. It never really equaled out, but since you have no idea where you would have been without the system...there was nothing really to argue about.

It didn't build up good will anywhere near the extent that one would think. The reason is because it was the veteran that benefited because the veteran knew how to work the system. The first timer didn't really have the time to know the best way to use it. They were the ones standing in the lines with skowels on their faces where in previous years there were smiles. It enhanced for only a few. One doesn't continue in business by only make a few happy. Eventually, the past catches up and those that might have returned are not Disney fans because of their negative experiences.

As a lifetime fan of Disney it pains me no end to say this, but if I were you I would advise Trudy and her family to go to Universal Orlando for a couple of days. There they can capture the old feel of Disney. The one that us older then dirt people felt at WDW and kept us coming back. Everyone thought that Uni charging for their fastpass equivalent was awful, however, while looking in the face of the New FP+ as it appears it will be, the fact that if you are excluded there is no way to participate without paying the high ransom. At least at Uni you could pay a much smaller amount and still be able to benefit in a completely acceptable manner.

Let me throw in one more thought concerning this. My opinion is based on what has been leaked out and how it appears that this system is going to work. Since it, as of right now, has not been activated in any type of a "here it is" form, they could go a different route, if they do then they still might be able to pull some of us back in, otherwise it's not looking good for my future involvement with what was once a great institution.
 

wdisney9000

Truindenashendubapreser
Premium Member
If anybody cares about real-life experiences ( vs. conspiracy theories ) with Fast Pass+, there have been at least 4 trip reports posted with very positive feedback on FP+. Not perfect, but I think all the users were very happy with the overall experience.
While I am very glad those people had good experiences and a fun trip, it is difficult to gauge MM+ because Disney is tipping the scales big time to make sure those testers have a good experience. Allowing people to book FP+ on the same day they visit the park, giving extra FP+ for the big attractions and also being able to still use legacy FP all will be not possible once the system is fully online. Add in the fact that there is a small amount of testers with a large amount of CM/techs on standby to help in case a problem arises skews any feedback in my opinion. Yes, this is a testing phase, but the testing has been going on for months now and they still arent letting people use ONLY the MM+ system. If they were not giving out all the freebies and extra FP+ selections and catering to each individual and the testers were ONLY using the MM+ system we would probly be reading very disgruntled trip reports. There would be nothing wrong with that either as it is still in testing and those who sign up should be aware there will be problems. I could be WAY off though, just stating my opinion from what I have read. In the end, I am glad they had good trips, regardless/irregardless? of the testing.
 

71jason

Well-Known Member
Oh, I'll be the first to categorize it as a puff piece. It mainly has one goal: to point out that the Universal love-fest (and now-common Disney bashing) is starting to tilt into groupthink. Disney was once quite dominant and can be again... I think folks are starting to lose hope that they will do what's necessary. But a single massive improvement can vault them back to the top pretty quickly.

It's not so much a case of being "on top." WDW certainly is, and will remain so for the foreseeable future, in terms of number of guests and, I imagine, revenue. It's how big a slice of the pie they get, especially given that they are more of a hotel company than a theme park company these days. And no single improvement at this point is going to stop most Orlando visitors from spending 2 days at Universal. Those 2 days off-property are the first domino that sets everything else falling ...


As for the Loews hotels, I'll admit it's been years since I've stepped foot inside, so I concede my memory could be playing tricks and am happy to instead call them Deluxe hotels. I was *trying* to give the Disney-lovers some benefit of the doubt, but that article seems not to have needed it.

It's a weird thing to be called too optimistic with regard to Disney... hasn't happened to me in some time!

Long-time fan, and absolute credit to you for not being a total Pixie Dust addict--this is the man who coined the term "declining by degrees" and was pointing out WDW's drop in quality long before it was "online cool" to do so. But yeah, you miffed it on that one, sorry. The Lowes hotels are easily a star higher than even the monorail resorts.
 

flynnibus

Premium Member
It didn't build up good will anywhere near the extent that one would think. The reason is because it was the veteran that benefited because the veteran knew how to work the system. The first timer didn't really have the time to know the best way to use it. They were the ones standing in the lines with skowels on their faces where in previous years there were smiles. It enhanced for only a few. One doesn't continue in business by only make a few happy. Eventually, the past catches up and those that might have returned are not Disney fans because of their negative experiences.

I think you are focusing on extremes and ignoring everything in the middle to make the outcome what you want it to be.

If FP had no perceived value... no one would give a crap about being limited to 3 FP+ - but they do, so we know FPs are perceived as valuable. Nevermind how many permutations people have dreamt up to wonder if Disney is still going to comp them if they missed a FP+ reservation. To argue FP is not desirable for many is a fallacy that flies directly in the face of those facts.

But that's the extreme high end.. what about the middle? Every family I know of in my extended network of acquaintances who visit WDW all are aware of FP and know to use it. Do they know how to game it for max value? No, but they don't need to. They still use FP and desire to.

And what about the low end... the people who are clueless about FP and think its a paid upgrade, don't understand, etc. Yes, this population exists, but how prevalent is it? Are they forever stuck in this position or do they learn and then move up to the middle of the pack?

Your postulation that FP 'only enhances a few at the expense of the rest' and that it 'in reality was more detrimental then not' is not consistent with how the majority enjoy the parks. If it were true, Disney could unplug FP tomorrow and no one would mind at all. But do you honestly believe that to be true?
 

wdisney9000

Truindenashendubapreser
Premium Member
I think you are focusing on extremes and ignoring everything in the middle to make the outcome what you want it to be.

If FP had no perceived value... no one would give a crap about being limited to 3 FP+ - but they do, so we know FPs are perceived as valuable.
There is no other option except strictly using standby lines. The perceived value is for lack of any other option. They are not limiting the FP to 3 a day because people were gaming the system. Its crowd control.
 

flynnibus

Premium Member
There is no other option except strictly using standby lines

And if FP had no value for you.. you wouldn't care about being left with that option. But we all know the FP does have value.. and people have been fighting tooth and nail and spending countless amounts of energy over the last decade to maximize it.
 

orky8

Well-Known Member
While I am very glad those people had good experiences and a fun trip, it is difficult to gauge MM+ because Disney is tipping the scales big time to make sure those testers have a good experience. Allowing people to book FP+ on the same day they visit the park, giving extra FP+ for the big attractions and also being able to still use legacy FP all will be not possible once the system is fully online. Add in the fact that there is a small amount of testers with a large amount of CM/techs on standby to help in case a problem arises skews any feedback in my opinion. Yes, this is a testing phase, but the testing has been going on for months now and they still arent letting people use ONLY the MM+ system. If they were not giving out all the freebies and extra FP+ selections and catering to each individual and the testers were ONLY using the MM+ system we would probly be reading very disgruntled trip reports. There would be nothing wrong with that either as it is still in testing and those who sign up should be aware there will be problems. I could be WAY off though, just stating my opinion from what I have read. In the end, I am glad they had good trips, regardless/irregardless? of the testing.


This is a very important point. To use a similar analogy, imagine if all the restaurants were seated on a first come first seated basis. All of a sudden, Disney offers a select few the opportunity to try a new reservation system in which all restaurants have availability for any time they desire that evening because up to this point, reservations didn't exists. What's not to love? But when the system goes live, much like the current dining reservation system, the day of experience is going to be dramatically differnt than what is playing out in the tests because there won't be reservations available as they will all be booked up the moment booking is allowed. It's not a fair test and it's not accurate feedback because the testing environment is very different from what the actual guest experience would be.

While I think this idea of reservations will have many benefits to the uber planners, it is going to a dramtically different day of experience than what current testers are getting to experience.
 

scout68

Well-Known Member
I think you are focusing on extremes and ignoring everything in the middle to make the outcome what you want it to be.

If FP had no perceived value... no one would give a crap about being limited to 3 FP+ - but they do, so we know FPs are perceived as valuable. Nevermind how many permutations people have dreamt up to wonder if Disney is still going to comp them if they missed a FP+ reservation. To argue FP is not desirable for many is a fallacy that flies directly in the face of those facts.

But that's the extreme high end.. what about the middle? Every family I know of in my extended network of acquaintances who visit WDW all are aware of FP and know to use it. Do they know how to game it for max value? No, but they don't need to. They still use FP and desire to.

And what about the low end... the people who are clueless about FP and think its a paid upgrade, don't understand, etc. Yes, this population exists, but how prevalent is it? Are they forever stuck in this position or do they learn and then move up to the middle of the pack?

Your postulation that FP 'only enhances a few at the expense of the rest' and that it 'in reality was more detrimental then not' is not consistent with how the majority enjoy the parks. If it were true, Disney could unplug FP tomorrow and no one would mind at all. But do you honestly believe that to be true?


Please don't take this as my hat in the ring (or three) of this debate as my talents in this medium are grossly dwarfed by poster such as yourself and many others on this site.

I do honestly believe that if Disney were to spin the removal of FP with a fraction of effort they have force-fed The Next Gen Scheme, the hoards of glazed eyed uniformed fans would love the announcement. (myself included)

"After recent studies conducted at several of our Florida Parks it has been determined that level of magic and dreams will be increased. With the removal of FP we welcome guests to enjoy the multi million dollar "Minnie" entertainment found in many of our stand-by queues. Not to mention a shorter wait. Thus enabling you and your families to attend more shows and ride more attractions in less time."

Thank you,
The Puppeteers..............................We meant The Management.
 
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Lee

Adventurer
Oh, I'll be the first to categorize it as a puff piece. It mainly has one goal: to point out that the Universal love-fest (and now-common Disney bashing) is starting to tilt into groupthink. Disney was once quite dominant and can be again... I think folks are starting to lose hope that they will do what's necessary. But a single massive improvement can vault them back to the top pretty quickly.

As for the Loews hotels, I'll admit it's been years since I've stepped foot inside, so I concede my memory could be playing tricks and am happy to instead call them Deluxe hotels. I was *trying* to give the Disney-lovers some benefit of the doubt, but that article seems not to have needed it.

It's a weird thing to be called too optimistic with regard to Disney... hasn't happened to me in some time!
I didn't see it as a puff piece as much as just a....pep talk of sorts.

Disney can...
Disney may...
Disney might...

Very optimistic, but not outrageous. Though I'm not sure I share the same level optimism.
 

Lee

Adventurer
Please don't take this as my hat in the ring (or three) of this debate as my talents in this medium are grossly dwarfed by poster such as yourself and many others on this site.

I do honestly believe that if Disney were to spin the removal of FP with a fraction of effort they have force-fed The Next Gen Scheme, the hoards of glazed eyed uniformed fans would love the announcement

"After recent studies conducted at several of our Florida Parks it has been determined that level of magic and dreams will be increased. With the removal of FP we welcome guests to enjoy the multi million dollar "Minnie" entertainment found in many of our stand-by queues. Not to mention a shorter wait. Thus enabling you and your families to attend more shows and ride more attractions in less time."

Thank you,
The Puppeteers..............................We meant The Management.
I'd be ok with that.
Give me Indy/Potter quality queues, and I'd be ok with reverting back to the pre-FP days.
 

WDWFanDave

Well-Known Member
The more I think about FP+ and all of the associated acronyms (DME, NGE, MM+, MB, etc), the more I believe that the only way they will be able to get any significant ROI is to make FP+ with multiple levels available.

Buy a 1 day ticket? Great, you get 1 FP+ pick, from whatever is left available for the day.

Staying offiste, but multi-day passes? Perhaps 2 per day?

Onsite, starting at 3 FP+ per day, depending upon resort classification.

Want more? Sure, we can do that...just open your wallet.

If Universal charges $90 for an unlimited pass, surely we can see TDO/TWDC charge something like $129/$149/$169.

Sending me emails/texts, etc., trying to nickel and dime me to death, in order to recoup the investment just doesn't make as much sense.

One thing is for sure...they are certainly delivering on the promise to completely change the theme park experience.

Just my thoughts/observations for the moment. :)
 

Goofyernmost

Well-Known Member
I think you are focusing on extremes and ignoring everything in the middle to make the outcome what you want it to be.

If FP had no perceived value... no one would give a crap about being limited to 3 FP+ - but they do, so we know FPs are perceived as valuable. Nevermind how many permutations people have dreamt up to wonder if Disney is still going to comp them if they missed a FP+ reservation. To argue FP is not desirable for many is a fallacy that flies directly in the face of those facts.

But that's the extreme high end.. what about the middle? Every family I know of in my extended network of acquaintances who visit WDW all are aware of FP and know to use it. Do they know how to game it for max value? No, but they don't need to. They still use FP and desire to.

And what about the low end... the people who are clueless about FP and think its a paid upgrade, don't understand, etc. Yes, this population exists, but how prevalent is it? Are they forever stuck in this position or do they learn and then move up to the middle of the pack?

Your postulation that FP 'only enhances a few at the expense of the rest' and that it 'in reality was more detrimental then not' is not consistent with how the majority enjoy the parks. If it were true, Disney could unplug FP tomorrow and no one would mind at all. But do you honestly believe that to be true?
To start with, of course a lot of people would mind if FP were to be eliminated completely. Those would be the big users, the same ones that had a hissy fit when they started to enforce return times. I believe that this is the very reason why it still exists in one form or the other. You could very well be right, however, the only people that I think give two drips about limiting to three are those that have used more then that. Those who have never used it (new guests) or those that used it in a limited manner, (those that hadn't yet had the time to understand how the system worked) do not even know how the old system affected them much less how this one will.

Fastpass is and always has been desirable for MANY, that is absolutely true. However, MANY is not all and since this is a place were everyone pays essentially the same thing to enter a park, then MANY is not enough. MANY isn't necessarily even a majority. You ask how many know how to use it right out of the box, and I say that unless you have been there and actually accumulated FP's one does not have the hang of the timing and the requirements at the very least until the second visit. I also believe that FP is a reason why people are willing to go there. Of course, I also believe that as many, if not more, will never return because they were unable to be a part of it, for whatever reason. If you spend your vacation angry, you don't usually go back to see if you can exceed your previous degree of upset.

I can neither prove that FP has cost them a lot of guest any more accurately then you can say that it hasn't. I do know this, even if one uses FP (as I do when necessary) I still feel that same frustration and anger while standing in a line that I am unable to secure a FP for. Coming from the days of yore before Fastpass, I know that even though people got tired of waiting in line, there was never anger. There was a common feeling of experiencing something that was the same degree of frustrating for everyone. (not much really) We would stand in line, constantly moving, while we joked and whined and laughed with people we didn't know. We didn't like the lines but we knew that everyone had to experience the same thing. If we saw a line that was excessively long we would bypass it and come back later. Can't do that anymore because it will always be long no matter when we were in it. But, and I cannot repeat this enough, there never was anger in any palpable degree, ever. I'm talking about the vane popping, red faced anger that I have seen in current lines. If anyone thinks that this is a good atmosphere for encouraging repeat visits they ought to teach that in Business 101...they don't'.

It isn't even important that the person that thinks they have to pay for it so they don't is one of the angry people in line, the mere fact that something even exists that can cause that kind of upset to anyone, is wrong. You have family and acquaintances that know how to use it ahead of time? That is probably because you have other family and friends that have been there and have taken the time to explain it. That isn't necessarily a luxury that everyone has. Personally I have met more people that didn't know then did. If one were never there before FP then they don't know how FP is affecting them. Of course they see a value. The value that they see is much smaller then say that for a long time, experienced FP user, and therefore the amount of upset they feel about the Big 3, is less then the more experienced traveler.

In fact, in some ways, I can envision that perhaps the limitation of FP's and some sort of control over how many of the three can be "E" ticket attractions coupled with faux FP attraction locations, might even help lower that upset as long as it isn't all linked to staying onsite. If they actually do that ...OMG... there will be upset like has never been witnessed before.

Even then, if they are able to limit the numbers to 3 and only to onsite guests then standby lines will move faster too, but unless FP were completely eliminated it will never flow like it once did. Guess we all have to wait and see what they do and how it actually works in real time. Who knows, we may all be 100% wrong and this may be actually a decree from god in heaven who has looked down on the pitiful and stupid and said unto Disney... "It is written that thou shalt institute FP+ and all will be right with the world and yin and yang will once again be in balance".
 

flynnibus

Premium Member
To start with, of course a lot of people would mind if FP were to be eliminated completely. Those would be the big users, the same ones that had a hissy fit when they started to enforce return times. I believe that this is the very reason why it still exists in one form or the other. You could very well be right, however, the only people that I think give two drips about limiting to three are those that have used more then that. Those who have never used it (new guests) or those that used it in a limited manner, (those that hadn't yet had the time to understand how the system worked) do not even know how the old system affected them much less how this one will.

Again... missing the middle.

Fastpass is and always has been desirable for MANY, that is absolutely true. However, MANY is not all and since this is a place were everyone pays essentially the same thing to enter a park, then MANY is not enough. MANY isn't necessarily even a majority. You ask how many know how to use it right out of the box, and I say that unless you have been there and actually accumulated FP's one does not have the hang of the timing and the requirements at the very least until the second visit. I also believe that FP is a reason why people are willing to go there. Of course, I also believe that as many, if not more, will never return because they were unable to be a part of it, for whatever reason

So you believe once you hit your second visit.. you get the hang of it... yet you believe MORE people vow never to return to Disney because of the FP lines... o_O

Yet Disney's backbone is based on it's repeat visitors... and you believe FP is 'a reason people are willing to go there'...

Yet you don't think FP upgraded the experience for people...

I can't make heads nor tails out of your position.

Maybe I keep better company... but I've never spoken to any acquaintance up here that after returning from a trip didn't understand the basic use of FP or knew that it existed and was free. In fact, from that same audience, I've never heard a complaint about FP (except they couldn't get one). The only place I hear complaining about it is on Disney fan sites.
 

wdisney9000

Truindenashendubapreser
Premium Member
And if FP had no value for you.. you wouldn't care about being left with that option. But we all know the FP does have value.. and people have been fighting tooth and nail and spending countless amounts of energy over the last decade to maximize it.
For the record, I have not used a FP in 4 years. I place no value on them at all. Granted, I visit often so riding every attraction doesn't matter. The value is in the eye of each individual
 

Goofyernmost

Well-Known Member
Again... missing the middle.



So you believe once you hit your second visit.. you get the hang of it... yet you believe MORE people vow never to return to Disney because of the FP lines... o_O

Yet Disney's backbone is based on it's repeat visitors... and you believe FP is 'a reason people are willing to go there'...

Yet you don't think FP upgraded the experience for people...

I can't make heads nor tails out of your position.

Maybe I keep better company... but I've never spoken to any acquaintance up here that after returning from a trip didn't understand the basic use of FP or knew that it existed and was free. In fact, from that same audience, I've never heard a complaint about FP (except they couldn't get one). The only place I hear complaining about it is on Disney fan sites.
I'll keep this one brief! I said at least the second visit before one starts to get the feel of FP and can use it with positive results, definitely not the first. That didn't mean that they were experts by the second.

Yes, I do believe that more people never return because of anger that they felt while standing in line watching people breeze on by them. From first grade we were taught that one didn't cut lines. No matter how sophisticated we get...that little gem is deeply engrained.

The backbone of Disney was and should be based on it's repeat visitors. However, a decent argument can be made that this is no longer the case as far as they are concerned. In fact, I detailed that on another post in another thread. Even if they still believe it, having angry and frustrated guests does not bode will for repeat business.

I don't know if it is "better" company, but it probably is different company. The part of your statement that I underlined exactly sums up what I am saying. Nobody complains if they have a FP. Those people are not the issue. It's those that don't have one that are unhappy. That is were the losses come from. Sure not everyone, but there are many. That is the crux of my complaint to Disney back when FP first started. It isn't what you hear that is the problem, it is what you don't hear. What you don't hear about are the NEW Disney obsessed people raving about the "Magic". You can even read it on these boards. Are you telling me that there aren't more people complaining now they there used to be. That there aren't more people saying that they are thinking of limiting their visits then before. The winds are changing and it isn't the thought of being tracked that is doing that. Most people don't know about that and those that do, for the most part don't care.

If these changes don't work in a positive way for the non-committed guest, I see the decline starting to become very real.

My stance is that Fastpass is now and has been from the beginning, a positive for some and a negative for many. The people that are able to use it are happy, those that can't (for whatever reason) are not. It's not that complex an equation. If you're not happy you don't return, if you are, you will!
 

Tom Morrow

Well-Known Member
Again... missing the middle.



So you believe once you hit your second visit.. you get the hang of it... yet you believe MORE people vow never to return to Disney because of the FP lines... o_O

Yet Disney's backbone is based on it's repeat visitors... and you believe FP is 'a reason people are willing to go there'...

Yet you don't think FP upgraded the experience for people...

I can't make heads nor tails out of your position.

Maybe I keep better company... but I've never spoken to any acquaintance up here that after returning from a trip didn't understand the basic use of FP or knew that it existed and was free. In fact, from that same audience, I've never heard a complaint about FP (except they couldn't get one). The only place I hear complaining about it is on Disney fan sites.
It definitely must be the company you keep. Any CM with experience with Fastpass will tell you that a large number of visitors do not get it or fully grasp it. More importantly though, it creates more negative situations than positive ones. And the positive aspects people perceive are mainly the illusion that they are "skipping a line" and riding more by using Fastpass, but they really aren't.
 
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