Spirited News, Observations & Thoughts IV

[nytimez]

Seems like there are folks 'round here who have an overly romantic notion of pre-FP days (and I am not referring to a single poster, even if it seems like I'm responding to @Goofyernmost).

Not how I remember it at all.

All I can say is that FP has been a huge PLUS (pun intended) at least for me. But FP+, from all I've read/heard/seen, will turn that plus into a big, fat minus.

 

[Goofyernmost]

Seems like there are folks 'round here who have an overly romantic notion of pre-FP days (and I am not referring to a single poster, even if it seems like I'm responding to @Goofyernmost).

Not how I remember it at all.

All I can say is that FP has been a huge PLUS (pun intended) at least for me. But FP+, from all I've read/heard/seen, will turn that plus into a big, fat minus.

It wasn't that it was perfect. It sometimes was a long wait. The point was not the length of time, it was the attitude of people in the line. Yes, there was frustration and upset about long lines but not to the extent that happened after FP. My point I think is that FP did not shorten any line except the new one that they created. The old one became longer and had an added frustration with it. Instead of just shared frustration it then became a situation where those in the line were second class citizens and others had privileges over them. Before there were long lines but we were all in the same line. We all experienced the same thing. Anger wasn't there, just general upset. We didn't leave feeling that we personally were done wrong. That is the difference. FP made it personal.

 

[nytimez]

It wasn't that it was perfect. It sometimes was a long wait. The point was not the length of time, it was the attitude of people in the line. Yes, there was frustration and upset about long lines but not to the extent that happened after FP. My point I think is that FP did not shorten any line except the new one that they created. The old one became longer and had an added frustration with it. Instead of just shared frustration it then became a situation where those in the line were second class citizens and others had privileges over them. Before there were long lines but we were all in the same line. We all experienced the same thing. Anger wasn't there, just general upset. We didn't leave feeling that we personally were done wrong. That is the difference. FP made it personal.

Only response I can make to this is what I already wrote. Not how I remember it at all.

Your mileage may vary.

 

[Goofyernmost]

Only response I can make to this is what I already wrote. Not how I remember it at all.

Your mileage may vary.

Not much of an argument if you don't tell us how you remember it. I don't know what you remember, only what I do. I spent a lot of words describing what I remember all you have done is said...I don't remember it that way. How do you remember it? Maybe I am a hopeless romantic about it...but you haven't pointed out the error of my ways yet.

 

[nytimez]

Not much of an argument if you don't tell us how you remember it. I don't know what you remember, only what I do. I spent a lot of words describing what I remember all you have done is said...I don't remember it that way. How do you remember it? Maybe I am a hopeless romantic about it...but you haven't pointed out the error of my ways yet.

I have to apologize for not matching you word-for-word on this, just not how I post. Also, it is not my intention to point out any errors in your ways; your memory and experience belong to you and not me.

All I can say is, the past you refer do does not exist in my own extensive WDW-visiting experience. I recall waiting in long lines. Very long lines. Very long and very hot lines.

And I don't recall the joy of bonding with strangers over how long we're all waiting in line together.

Now, I pretty much never wait in long lines, ever, and I have FP to thank for that. And I've really never seen the attacks, anger, violence, etc people report over FPs. Not saying it doesn't happen... but I have to question how often it happens since I go quite a bit and haven't seen it.

FP has worked out really, really well for me and my family.

 

[Tigger1988]

I have to apologize for not matching you word-for-word on this, just not how I post. Also, it is not my intention to point out any errors in your ways; your memory and experience belong to you and not me.

All I can say is, the past you refer do does not exist in my own extensive WDW-visiting experience. I recall waiting in long lines. Very long lines. Very long and very hot lines.

And I don't recall the joy of bonding with strangers over how long we're all waiting in line together.

Now, I pretty much never wait in long lines, ever, and I have FP to thank for that. And I've really never seen the attacks, anger, violence, etc people report over FPs. Not saying it doesn't happen... but I have to question how often it happens since I go quite a bit and haven't seen it.

FP has worked out really, really well for me and my family.

I will never miss waiting well over 2 hours to ride Splash Mountain in the summer heat. I can't remember the last time I waited longer than 30 min for a ride, thanks to FP.

The only time I've seen "violence" over FP is during rope drop at DHS, when cast members attempt to walk everyone to Toy Story Mania and have certain walkways blocked off.

 

[Goofyernmost]

I have to apologize for not matching you word-for-word on this, just not how I post. Also, it is not my intention to point out any errors in your ways; your memory and experience belong to you and not me.

All I can say is, the past you refer do does not exist in my own extensive WDW-visiting experience. I recall waiting in long lines. Very long lines. Very long and very hot lines.

And I don't recall the joy of bonding with strangers over how long we're all waiting in line together.

Now, I pretty much never wait in long lines, ever, and I have FP to thank for that. And I've really never seen the attacks, anger, violence, etc people report over FPs. Not saying it doesn't happen... but I have to question how often it happens since I go quite a bit and haven't seen it.

FP has worked out really, really well for me and my family.

I will never miss waiting well over 2 hours to ride Splash Mountain in the summer heat. I can't remember the last time I waited longer than 30 min for a ride, thanks to FP.

The only time I've seen "violence" over FP is during rope drop at DHS, when cast members attempt to walk everyone to Toy Story Mania and have certain walkways blocked off.

I guess two things come into play here. One would be how old you were when you experienced this situation. I was a smidgen away from being 36 years old up til whenever FP was instituted in 1999 (1983 to 1999) and 2. the fact that FP shortened the wait for many, did not stop the fact that it pretty much lengthened it for just as many, if not more. So, you were happy, they were not. I'm not speaking about you, because you were happy. The others are my focus. You all might want to forget that for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction, but I can't forget it. And I would have to ask myself should a Disney park ever have a reason for violence that they created? If you've seen it once, it's once too many.

 

[nytimez]

I guess two things come into play here. One would be how old you were when you experienced this situation. I was a smidgen away from being 36 years old up til whenever FP was instituted in 1999 (1983 to 1999) and 2. the fact that FP shortened the wait for many, did not stop the fact that it pretty much lengthened it for just as many, if not more. So, you were happy, they were not. I'm not speaking about you, because you were happy. The others are my focus. You all might want to forget that for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction, but I can't forget it. And I would have to ask myself should a Disney park ever have a reason for violence that they created? If you've seen it once, it's once too many.

I'll blame a lot of things on Disney. But if people get violent because they don't know how to wait in line or can't figure out how to use Fastpass, that is NOT Disney's fault by any stretch of the imagination.

And I don't understand how FP makes the line longer for others - do they not have access to it? This make no sense.

But, these are the ancient arguments on FP and we can go round and round in circles on this... so I'll give you the last word as I bow out.

 

[Clever Name]

The only regret I have about the old FastPass system is that they never had them for the super popular attractions like the Tiki Room, CBJ and CoP. But that will all change with the new system thank goodness!

 

[flynnibus]

I'll keep this one brief! I said at least the second visit before one starts to get the feel of FP and can use it with positive results, definitely not the first. That didn't mean that they were experts by the second.

Yes, I do believe that more people never return because of anger that they felt while standing in line watching people breeze on by them. From first grade we were taught that one didn't cut lines. No matter how sophisticated we get...that little gem is deeply engrained.

The backbone of Disney was and should be based on it's repeat visitors. However, a decent argument can be made that this is no longer the case as far as they are concerned. In fact, I detailed that on another post in another thread. Even if they still believe it, having angry and frustrated guests does not bode will for repeat business.

All I can say is... I don't believe your theories line up with observed behavior. Disney continues to milk the repeat customers, even those that are not FP ninjas. The 'middle' seem to understand the notion of FP just fine. Sure there are plenty of green people that don't understand it at first, but it doesn't take much to grasp the concept and once exposed, they use it for their need. Yes there are many many many who don't get it... there are also many many many people who can't figure out how to read basic signs. Just because there is reliable stream of newbies, that doesn't mean the majority don't get it. Just that there are plenty of newbies in the churn of the park guests.

CMs have to constantly answer to the stupidest things.. that doesn't mean the majority have the same issue.

The part of your statement that I underlined exactly sums up what I am saying. Nobody complains if they have a FP. Those people are not the issue. It's those that don't have one that are unhappy. That is were the losses come from

What I said, and what you are talking about are not the same thing. When I said they can't get one.. they are speaking about the limited availability. I don't have time nor patience for someone who would flip their attitude from like to dislike simply because 'right now, they don't have a FP' and can't see past the tip of their nose.

I'm not going to make this into a FP or no-FP thread... but your idea that FP has never been perceived as a value to customers is something I think you would have a hard time finding the gen pop agreeing with you.

 

[ToTBellHop]

The only regret I have about the old FastPass system is that they never had them for the super popular attractions like the Tiki Room, CBJ and CoP. But that will all change with the new system thank goodness!

I can't tell you how many times I've waited an hour or mor for The Seas with Nemo and Friends...

 

[flynnibus]

It definitely must be the company you keep. Any CM with experience with Fastpass will tell you that a large number of visitors do not get it or fully grasp it. More importantly though, it creates more negative situations than positive ones. And the positive aspects people perceive are mainly the illusion that they are "skipping a line" and riding more by using Fastpass, but they really aren't.

People do ride more with FP.. the amount saved in one or two massive lines easily outweighs any incremental add in another line. It's not an illusion - it's simple math. But I'm not interested in another FP debate. If you think FP is all just smoke an mirrors... more power to you.

 

[GoofGoof]

That was too much Disney cheer-leading for me to get through it. I'll take your word for it.

Take a minute and read the whole thing. I think you may actually find it full of fair criticism of WDW with a bit of optimism mixed in. I thought it was a pretty good read that lines up with a lot of the same complaints and criticism that exist in this thread.

 

[GoofGoof]

Oh, I'll be the first to categorize it as a puff piece. It mainly has one goal: to point out that the Universal love-fest (and now-common Disney bashing) is starting to tilt into groupthink. Disney was once quite dominant and can be again... I think folks are starting to lose hope that they will do what's necessary. But a single massive improvement can vault them back to the top pretty quickly.

As for the Loews hotels, I'll admit it's been years since I've stepped foot inside, so I concede my memory could be playing tricks and am happy to instead call them Deluxe hotels. I was *trying* to give the Disney-lovers some benefit of the doubt, but that article seems not to have needed it.

It's a weird thing to be called too optimistic with regard to Disney... hasn't happened to me in some time!

Good read. It's interesting that you referred to FP+ as a response to Universal's Express Pass. Do you see this system eventually becoming a pay as you go type option with a potential up charge to gain additional FP+ reservations or even potentially make it only available to onsite guests? I don't think that would go over very well here, but could be a possible way to profit from the system. Express pass is a major perk to staying onsite at Uni.

 

[willtravel]

Good read. It's interesting that you referred to FP+ as a response to Universal's Express Pass. Do you see this system eventually becoming a pay as you go type option with a potential up charge to gain additional FP+ reservations or even potentially make it only available to onsite guests? I don't think that would go over very well here, but could be a possible way to profit from the system. Express pass is a major perk to staying onsite at Uni.

Why does it go over at UNI (or excepted?) but would not at WDW?

 

[Tom Morrow]

And I don't understand how FP makes the line longer for others - do they not have access to it? This make no sense.

But, these are the ancient arguments on FP and we can go round and round in circles on this... so I'll give you the last word as I bow out.

I know you are opting out of this argument, but I am going to respond anyway for others who are reading.

It doesn't reduce the amount of attractions others can experience, if they, too, make the effort to fully utilize Fastpass. But even then, in the end, you are not riding more with Fastpass than without it. That is the illusion Fastpass creates and why people are in favor of it. Instead you are doing more work to ride essentially the same amount that you would be able to ride if it didn't exist.

Ride capacities are fixed. There is no way to somehow increase their capacity and how much everyone can ride in a day. What Fastpass does is change how you wait.

In my previous post I mentioned why the myth that "if everyone were just using one line it would be the same wait time anyway" is wrong. With 80-95% of the ride's capacity being devoted to the Fastpass line, you are letting a higher number of people "skip" in front of you - in addition to the people that are physically in front of you - than would ever be possible with one solitary line, in which the number of people who will ride before you is fixed when you enter the queue.

Its also worth noting that the distribution of crowds, as well as the number of Fastpasses distributed, is quite different than when it debuted in 1999. In the early days, remember how they were generally always gone by mid afternoon? Today you can still grab a Fastpass for Space Mountain 90 minutes before the park closes. At midnight. Why? Because when there is demand, enough Fastpasses are distributed that the Fastpass line is now the "normal line." Add in the well documented GAC Abuse and other forms of scamming and abuse, and more people are entering via the Fastpass queue than ever before. You aren't bypassing the normal line. You're scheduling a time to use the normal line.

This will go in circles because having a Fastpass and walking up to an attraction and riding with minimal wait will always make people happy, but seriously ask any Cast Member that has ever worked a Fastpass attraction, be it college program newbie or ex-imagineer, and they will tell you the exact same thing. They'll also tell you that it creates a staggering amount of negative situations in the parks. And not just the typical "man, people are stupid!" hyperbole. More than any other single solitary thing at WDW, Fastpass is directly or indirectly responsible for the majority of complaints in the parks.

 

[crispy]

If anybody cares about real-life experiences ( vs. conspiracy theories ) with Fast Pass+, there have been at least 4 trip reports posted with very positive feedback on FP+. Not perfect, but I think all the users were very happy with the overall experience.

After reading both positive and negative reviews, it's interesting to me how experiences have varied so widely (which may be the norm for testing, I am not sure), and the negative experiences are extremely negative. It seems that those who buy packages and make no major changes are having positive experiences while those who don't purchase packages and have to have individual items like rooms and tickets linked to their accounts are having the most issues. There appears that many frontline CMs are not fully trained and can't seem to figure out how to resolve the issues that do come up, and in some instances, are seeming to create more issues for guest.

 

[GoofGoof]

Why does it go over at UNI (or excepted?) but would not at WDW?

IMHO the number 1 reason is basic math. Universal currently has about 2,000 hotel rooms. WDW 25,000+. If you offered front of line access to guests staying on property at WDW half the people would gain access. The lines would be pretty long and those not staying on property would suffer. Eventually off site guests would either stop coming or buy in to the Express Pass option. Then everyone would have it. The whole system would collapse. At Universal the 2,000 rooms make up a much smaller percentage of total guests so it doesn't make not having express pass unbearable. What is interesting is the new Uni resort almost doubles their room capacity. Will these people all get Express pass too? If so will it result in much longer standby lines?

 

[flynnibus]

Ride capacities are fixed. There is no way to somehow increase their capacity and how much everyone can ride in a day.

and ride capacities are not always at 100% utilization... hence the whole idea of wanting to distribute load to under utilized attractions. Plus, even if the attraction is running at full capacity, it's excess demand that dictates what the wait for an attraction is.. and that is self regulating. It doesn't matter that BTMRR's capacity doesn't change... if I can get in 2 rides somewhere else in exchange for deferring my ride time.. that is time gained. You can argue FP bloated what the standby time would have been without FP... but even without FP, the standby line would grow right back to the same sizes. Because the standby line's wait is dictated by people's tolerance for wait as long as demand exceeds supply. And for the big tickets.. demand will always exceed supply. What regulates the lines is not capacity, but simply how long people are willing to wait.

FP simply reduces the effectiveness of the standby line in terms of ride count.. but still maintains it's total ride count from the FP queue. Less people go through standby than they would have without FP. But guests stay ahead because of the less time spent in lines. Guests are able to convert downtime, to productive time by picking up rides during their deferment. Without FP, that time is lost.. and it probably wouldn't have been much shorter without FP anyways because again.. the self regulating nature of lines.

If BTMRR has a 5 minute wait.. it won't for long... if the demand exists in the park.

 

[doctornick]

Why does it go over at UNI (or excepted?) but would not at WDW?

That is one thing I have wondered. People have often stated here how FP creates bad feelings among guests when they see so many people being let in ahead of them in line. And that is for a system that everyone has equal access to. Meanwhile, Universal has a system that also allows people to "butt into line" and it's not a big deal apparently. Should the Express Pass cause negative reactions for people "checking out" Universal?