flynnibus
Premium Member
Yes.. certainly in your opinion...
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Spirited News & Observations II -- NGE/Baxter
- Thread starter WDW1974
- Start date
Yes.. certainly in your opinion...
Ciciwoowoo
Well-Known Member
One problem that the car companies of Detroit faced: Legacy costs. The cost of retirement benefits to workers and spouses. This played a big part in the bankruptcy filing.
I would think Disney does not have anywhere near the legacy costs toward their employees.
Just putting this out there because I don't think comparing Disney to Detroit is really helpful.
I would think Disney does not have anywhere near the legacy costs toward their employees.
Just putting this out there because I don't think comparing Disney to Detroit is really helpful.
ctxak98
Well-Known Member
exactly!
Nubs70
Well-Known Member
Detroit got complacent because they had no real competition for almost a generation. Japan got a do over 1945 with new plants and manufacturing practices. Culturally, Japanese workers have a servant attitude in employee relations where Detroit does not.
flynnibus
Premium Member
Because you are off by about 30 years... the Detroit comparison is about the rise of the imports in the late 70s and Detriots complacency about their product at the time - not the auto bailout of 2008+
PhotoDave219
Well-Known Member
God forbid a company treat its employees right or even human.
God forbid employees band together and fight for better treatment and pay for everyone.
God forbid employees band together and fight for better treatment and pay for everyone.
Nubs70
Well-Known Member
I think you are both correct. The legacy costs were established when Detroit became complacent and believed there forward looking guidance of profitability was only going to grow and would support the negotiated contracts.
Detroit became complacent into the seventies when the believed their quality was superior and after all their was no other competitors in the world, By the time Detroit realized they needed to change, they did not have the intellectual bench strength nor the financial ability, in the case of Chrysler, to make the rapid changes needed.
In the case of Disney, I see aspects of both arguments. Disney is operating with the forward guidance that there is no/limited competition and that quality is not of utmost importance because were Disney and people will always come.
Let us hope that Disney adopts a proactive stance on improvement.
ParentsOf4
Well-Known Member
You mean like WDW?
yep..my mom gets great benefits even though my dad passed away several years ago.... also my dad never paid for insurance....think about that for a minute....not a cent for our families insurance
The Empress Lilly
Well-Known Member
And are you displeased with the evil unions for ensuring that your mother can still live a dignified life despite your father having passed away?
nytimez
Well-Known Member
But he did, whether it came out of his paycheck or not. It is part of the compensation and consciously offered by employers, who do not look at salary as the entire cost of an employee but everything it costs to hire and retain the employee.
never said i was displeased with unions but the simple truth is unions mean fewer jobs more money..and no unions means less money more jobs....why do think volkswagon built their plant in chattanooga (where i live)
in the early 90's GM had about 600,00 employees..guess how many they have today?
my dad made 65 grand a year in the early 90's which was great for us but my home town is a ghost town now because no more jobs
well when there was a freeze on wages a way to up the ante so to speak was to build your benefits package
RyenDeckard
Well-Known Member
I like how you actually figure out a way to simplify the current economic climate to "Unions = Bad No Unions = Good" which is so absurd my head actually hurts.
Nubs70
Well-Known Member
All I can do is share with you an experience from my career.
I worked for a facility from 2007 to 2009 for a company, which back in the 80's was the largest of it's kind in the world employing over 6000 people in a town of 50,000. The company was the largest private landholder in the U.S. During the 80's the mill was making money hand over fist. If you came to work for them, you did not need to house hunt, they would build a house for you. Anyhow, the labor contract expired in the mid 80's and the company offer a new contract with a 28% wage increase. The union voted the offer down as the raise was insufficient. Subsequently, the union went on strike.
Customers felt the company a risk and therefore the supply of product was at risk. Thus when the strike was over, only 60% of the prestrike orders came back the remaining 40% was sourced from other providers. This led to company to invest in new mills in the South and ultimately selling off mills, woodlands, and infrastructure. The sold off mill then ran into foreign competition, technological advances, and did not have the funds to modernize. The downward spiral continued with successive bankruptcies and new owners. I bailed in 09 when the facility was shut down. It has since restarted again with around 240 employees making 1/10 of it's original capacity. The hourly employees now make $11.00/hour when in the 80's they were making over $40/hour before OT.
So I can say with definite assurance that non cooperative organized labor forces can be detrimental to the company.
misterID
Well-Known Member
"So I can say with definite assurance that non cooperative organized labor forces can be detrimental to the company."
So can corporations who are given free range to do whatever they want. You know, taking away the morality aspect of working people at slave wages in third world countries, and forgetting how unpatriotic it is to give the finger to the very country that gave you your opportunity to build your business, not to mention your company's continued steady economic growth directly beacuse of this country and it's people, no one who disses the unions has ever given a reason for their not to be a union. Not in one hundred years. There's a real reason there are unions, and the corporate mindset, behavior in recent years, hasn't actually shown that they can be trusted without unions.
So can corporations who are given free range to do whatever they want. You know, taking away the morality aspect of working people at slave wages in third world countries, and forgetting how unpatriotic it is to give the finger to the very country that gave you your opportunity to build your business, not to mention your company's continued steady economic growth directly beacuse of this country and it's people, no one who disses the unions has ever given a reason for their not to be a union. Not in one hundred years. There's a real reason there are unions, and the corporate mindset, behavior in recent years, hasn't actually shown that they can be trusted without unions.
relax its just an opinion..its a disney board so i see no need to go into great detail..my dad was in the UAW so its not like im some republican blow hard...bottom line is there is a reason VW came to chattanooga and its not for the choo choo...our hometown in michigan is a ghost town because of all the closings of those plants
unions were great and needed 50 years ago..i guess i could go into debate mode and discuss why states that are unionized have higher unemployments but there is no need just move on..i hope your head feels better
just one mans opinion
John
Well-Known Member
Since this thread has taken on a life of its own and the soup de jour is unions right now I would lovvvvve to chime in on the subject. Just for the sake of disclosure which in a second there will be no doubt. I hate the unions. I live in an area that had Bethlehem Steel, Sparrows point ship yard, A Westinghouse plant a GM plant A Eastern Stainless steel plant and to many breweries to name. ALL of them are now gone....every single one of them shuttered! You want to blame foreign competition be my guest. But here at these plants it was organized labor who killed these plants. I knew many people who worked for these companies. In my neighborhood it was easy to tell who worked there. They all drove the nice cars and went on the nice vacations. They would get 12 weeks paid vacations.....huge benefit packages. When the unions went on strike the management would give the unions what ever they wanted to keep the product rolling. SO instead of investing in modernization and keeping up with Japan they gave that money to the employees. It finally caught up with them. Japan made better cars and steel more efficiently. Now the United States doesn't produce anything but hamburgers and pizza.
Now it is reported that something like $3,000 per car is added to the total cost to pay for legacy benefits to retired auto workers. Have you ever had to do construction in New York city? They have people who operate the elevator that is unionized. making ridicules amount of money to do something a third grader could do. Not to mention you have to tip everyone. Don't tip the highly paid elevator attendant and your materials will sit on the loading dock. In the case of the Steel workers who got 12 weeks vacation the company essentially paid two people to do the job of one person because many workers were always on vacation therefore having to pay someone to do that job while the other is at the beach. When he came back the other person would go on vacation. No way could a business sustain that model. Which had a direct effect on the car industry. Add that to the UAW and their demands and its bye bye US car manufactures.
Now in my area the fastest growing businesses are pawn shops and bail bondsmen. A nice comfortable life? Since when is a nice comfortable life the responsibility of business? I have a nice comfortable life and I am not union....in fact I get one week paid vacation and I have worked for my company over 20 years. I am a piece worker and work extremely hard for what I have. As others have said the unions were necessary 50-60 years ago but now they are no more then a PAC disguised as a protectionist for labor. Its top loaded with administration cost..... riddled with corruption....yeah... I love unions.
Now it is reported that something like $3,000 per car is added to the total cost to pay for legacy benefits to retired auto workers. Have you ever had to do construction in New York city? They have people who operate the elevator that is unionized. making ridicules amount of money to do something a third grader could do. Not to mention you have to tip everyone. Don't tip the highly paid elevator attendant and your materials will sit on the loading dock. In the case of the Steel workers who got 12 weeks vacation the company essentially paid two people to do the job of one person because many workers were always on vacation therefore having to pay someone to do that job while the other is at the beach. When he came back the other person would go on vacation. No way could a business sustain that model. Which had a direct effect on the car industry. Add that to the UAW and their demands and its bye bye US car manufactures.
Now in my area the fastest growing businesses are pawn shops and bail bondsmen. A nice comfortable life? Since when is a nice comfortable life the responsibility of business? I have a nice comfortable life and I am not union....in fact I get one week paid vacation and I have worked for my company over 20 years. I am a piece worker and work extremely hard for what I have. As others have said the unions were necessary 50-60 years ago but now they are no more then a PAC disguised as a protectionist for labor. Its top loaded with administration cost..... riddled with corruption....yeah... I love unions.
PhotoDave219
Well-Known Member
I think you can make the argument that the top of all businesses is corrupt.
UAW states that their dues were $552 a year for a $48,000 worker in 2000. For that price, a healthy 25 year old male could buy a $1 million, 25-year term life insurance policy. Invested properly, a $1 million policy should average a $100,000 return every single year, providing his mother with insurance and meeting whatever needs she would have had for the rest of her life.
I have more faith in people than that.