Spirited News & Observations II -- NGE/Baxter

djlaosc

Well-Known Member
Also... I would love to see something from How To Train Your Dragon in the Universal Parks. I couldn't believe how much I loved that movie and my family was greatly amused when I asked for it for Christmas. That soundtrack on it is just plain beautiful. @WDW1974 you know something! Spill it! ;)

Yeah, I saw it for the first time at Christmas - it was Pixar quality. Hopefully there will be an attraction (and a chance to buy your own Toothless!)
 

George

Liker of Things
Premium Member
So….what follows is a weird post even by my standards. I’m roughly about 1/3 of the way through the thread and it got part of my synapses firing. Anyhoo, I’m going to make two analogies to the theme park business in Orlando by comparing and contrasting the history of other creative things from a fan’s perspective. For the purposes of this discussion we will assume that DisneyWorld, Metallica, and Seinfeld all have the same fraction of “hard core” (20%) to “casual fans” (80%), even though this ratio is meaningless and has no bearing on the discussion. It just happens that 8 and 2 are easy for me to type. First, let’s start with the heavy metal analogy to discuss the overall direction and arc of the parks with Metallica being a stand in for Walt Disney World and Megadeth for Universal. So…some brief history. The 20% of hard core metal fans are always comparing Megadeth to Metallica since a Dave Mustaine the founder of Megadeth was a member of Metallica when the careers of everyone involved were young. This is the weakest part of the analogy since in this time line Universal has a resort in Orlando in 1972, but bear with me. Early in the careers of each band, the metal fans loved both. Each group released 4 albums or so that all the hard core fans would call classic. Metallica had a little more respect because unlike the other bands that comprise the big 4 of thrash metal ( also includes Anthrax and Slayer) they were able to play this type of music and have hooks and a sound that could occasionally get them some radio play and mainstream popularity (One, Master of Puppets, etc.) was quite impressive. The other thrash metal bands had almost no mainstream crossover appeal. Then, in the early/mid 90’s something happened. Metallica decided to ditch the 20% and expand the size of the 80% (during this time Lars Ulrich has this quote for all the original fans who accused Metallica of selling out – “Yeah, we well out stadiums, etc. etc.”). Anyhoo, almost quietly, Megadeth released an album (Countdown to Extinction, see the Disney tie ins are endless) that had many of the same features of the early Metallica albums inasmuch as it didn’t “betray” metalheads, and had a sound that almost any fan of rock could enjoy. In a sense it was Megadeth’s WWoHP. After that, Metallica enjoyed immense popularity, but it was slowly declining. They’ve only put out 9 studio albums (E-tickets) for the entirety of their history. What they did put out in the 90’s and 00’s is mostly analgous to NGE – stuff the serious fans had no interest in. Plus, they made two mistakes as a result of ditching the hard core fans. One – the 20% really helped their popularity. Other music fans if they asked my opinion, knew that I was into that type of music and I would say something like, “You can’t wrong with Master of Puppets.” Now, I might say, “Don’t buy anything put out after the black album unless you like leaden songs and video movies about how hard life is as a rich rock star.” Meanwhile, Megadeth has put out 14 studio albums, still retains their fan following, and has slowly increased in popularity as the years have gone by. They’ll never be as popular as Metallica, but Mr. Mustaine is rich, famous, and has done nothing to jeopardize his standing in the community of serious fans. In fact, he’s slowly increased his market share of casual fans whilst maintaining a unique, high quality, hard to emulate, original sound. Since this is on a more compressed timeline than theme parks, let’s talk about the future. In 2008 (I think) Metallica released an album (Death Magnetic) that was clearly designed as a bone to their hard core fans that they essentially lost. It would be like WDW building Horizons II, sprucing up Imagination, building a new Mr. Toads, WRE, having TV shows made at the studios again and adding Beastly Kingdom and looking at us and going “So….what do you guys think?” It had this effect. Based on my unscientific conversations with friends about half of the metal heads forgave them and bought the record. The others are still ed about 2 wasted decades and want nothing to do with it. They aren’t buying videos, going to concerts, or anything anymore. These are people who in the 80’s and early 90’s may have seen them 4 or 5 times on a tour (the casual fans never do this). They’re still doing this for Megadeth, Iron Maiden, etc.

Let’s switch gears and talk about the second mistake of ditching the hard core fans. I’m a casual fan of Seinfeld. I liked the show, but I certainly don’t know ten quotes from every episode nor can I rattle of a list of secondary characters that goes more than 7 or 8 deep. Nonetheless, if the show lost the layered aspects of characterization and references that made it special and a unique cultural touchstone I would have certainly noticed. If during season 4 they had decided that they needed to simplify the show so that they could expand their viewing audience even more (let’s have more of Kramer falling over things and ditch that story line where George has to use the bathroom in the brownstone and makes up the company owns), I would’ve have certainly noticed. It may have taken me more episodes or seasons than the serious fan to notice, but eventually I would’ve viewed the show less often. The assumption that what makes something special to the casual and hard core fan is completely different is fundamentally wrong. I viewed the video premier of “One” as a freshman in college and there was a huge group of us in the dorm room lounge watching, cheering, and literally high-fiving when it was over. Most of the people in the room weren’t familiar with thrash metal, but I believe part of the popularity of the song was that it had that musical influence or that “je ne sais quoi” to the casual fan. Without it, they’re just another rock band. If Disney continues down the path they are following at WDW it will lose that something special to the entirety of its fan base. They’ll be just another theme park. I don’t get the sense that they realize that. They may still out attendance everyone else, but they’ll be on a slow decline and get increasingly more desperate to get that market share back.
 

asianway

Well-Known Member
Yeah, I mentioned that in another thread.

A Star Wars land? At DCA?
Let's see...
It doesn't relate to California.
There is really no room.
Star Tours is across the esplanade.

Nope...even an entry level fanboy could see that doesn't pass the sniff test.
Star Wars on the strawberry field.

And in FL, use a Hogwarts Express-esque conveyance to span World Drive and build it as an expansion west of DHS.
 

Californian Elitist

Well-Known Member
Yeah, I mentioned that in another thread.

A Star Wars land? At DCA?
Let's see...
It doesn't relate to California.
There is really no room.
Star Tours is across the esplanade.

Nope...even an entry level fanboy could see that doesn't pass the sniff test.

Exactly, for all the statements above. And the sad part is, even though Star Wars has NOTHING to do with California, there ain't no space in DCA for something like this, and Star Wars is represented right across at the other park, a whole bunch of people reading that article, fanbois pretty much, will believe it could happen. They'll think of some excuse as to why the theme will fit... Star Wars is a Hollywood blockbuster, so it'll definitely fit in Hollywood Land. Uuuhhh... WHAT?! No! It's not going to happen.
 

Goofyernmost

Well-Known Member
Exactly, for all the statements above. And the sad part is, even though Star Wars has NOTHING to do with California, there ain't no space in DCA for something like this, and Star Wars is represented right across at the other park, a whole bunch of people reading that article, fanbois pretty much, will believe it could happen. They'll think of some excuse as to why the theme will fit... Star Wars is a Hollywood blockbuster, so it'll definitely fit in Hollywood Land. Uuuhhh... WHAT?! No! It's not going to happen.
Does Tomorrowland or Future World fit better?:)
 

Pentacat

Well-Known Member
Yeah, I mentioned that in another thread.

A Star Wars land? At DCA?
Let's see...
It doesn't relate to California.
There is really no room.
Star Tours is across the esplanade.

Nope...even an entry level fanboy could see that doesn't pass the sniff test.

Have to wait for the Marvel/Star Wars crossover movie that will inevitably be made. My money is on Iron Man Versus the Death Star.

Then Cali will get it's third gate, a Marvel Star Wars Mash-up Park.
 

flynnibus

Premium Member
Well, you are quite right about the psychology behind upselling and upgrades ... even with FP, I think there is a significant majority out there who wouldn't balk at paying for FP+ IF they felt they were getting something extra ... (maybe that's the PLUS!)

Agreed - the Universal Studios model works well. Bundling their Express system with the hotels closed the deal for me easily. But that's also because they set the expectation up front that Express was significant $$. Disney through legacy has the opposite expectation, that it should be free. So any upsold item in that area needs to be radically different from FP to justify the price delta.

Just thinking outloud... I bet if you had a 'override' pass available for purchase.. people would pay. Imagine if once all FP tickets are out for the day, you could pay $10/head to get a FP for 'right now' and get in line. That offers two things.. bypasses the expired allotment and immediate access. Something like $10 may be high enough to discourage 'everyone' from doing it but low enough that Johnny Sr caves to little Johnny's whining... that's a lot of money at stake for almost zero investment by Disney.. money that comes in every day for the forseeable future.

But this is also the company that has the gaul to charge $15 for a digital picture.. not even printed. And obviously some people pay that.. so what do I know :)

I (naturally) am viewing things from the critic/skeptic's PoV ... but what if you turn that around and take the Pixie Dust addict's PoV?

Regardless.. there is always the two camps of 'why shouldn't I be able to buy my way in?' vs the socialists :)

With the barrier to exercise the purchase being SO low with the wristband.. it certainly represents an opportunity for Disney. But I have to imagine such concepts are 'future dreams' well beyond getting the basic plumping functional and smooth. One has to be careful to not draw an association between the band and 'the way you milk the guest'. Such correlations during rollout will hinder guest adoption. Gotta keep those types of unhappy thoughts away until the product is widely accepted :)
 

lazyboy97o

Well-Known Member
Agreed - the Universal Studios model works well. Bundling their Express system with the hotels closed the deal for me easily. But that's also because they set the expectation up front that Express was significant $$. Disney through legacy has the opposite expectation, that it should be free. So any upsold item in that area needs to be radically different from FP to justify the price delta.
While Universal acted in a much shorter time frame, Universal Express Pass was free and operated in a nearly identical fashion to FastPass. The current offerings are Express Pass Plus and a Unlimited Express Pass Plus, phased in when it was realized the products could be monetized.
 

Soarin' Over Pgh

Well-Known Member
So….what follows is a weird post even by my standards..... First, let’s start with the heavy metal analogy to discuss the overall direction and arc of the parks with Metallica being a stand in for Walt Disney World and Megadeth for Universal. So…some brief history. The 20% of hard core metal fans are always comparing Megadeth to Metallica since a Dave Mustaine the founder of Megadeth was a member of Metallica when the careers of everyone involved were young. This is the weakest part of the analogy since in this time line Universal has a resort in Orlando in 1972, but bear with me. Early in the careers of each band, the metal fans loved both. Each group released 4 albums or so that all the hard core fans would call classic. Metallica had a little more respect because unlike the other bands that comprise the big 4 of thrash metal ( also includes Anthrax and Slayer)


You just brought Anthrax and Slayer into a WDW post. And Megadeth. Plus Metallica of old.

I love you.

That's all.

(edit to add something of quality to the post: You're absolutely right on all accounts. Especially with your comparision of metal to Disney. Seriously? Did I say I love you yet?)
 

flynnibus

Premium Member
I don't know. I tossed out something I heard in passing. I sorta blew it off at first, but the more I thought about it, the more plausible or possible it became.

There's a reason IOA is going to be getting major expansion to the JP area and a lagoon show. They are looking to pump up the entire park and not make it seem like 'Potter and everything else' ... I think a lot depend on how successful everything winds up being (both Potter 2.0 and everything else).

Yeah, the current park (IMO) is a bunch of HIGHs and bunch of LOWs. Much of the place is still just areas you 'walk through to get to the next one..' instead of being appreciated in their own space. It will be interesting to see how the non-HP additions (like Simpsons) turn out. The JP expansion I'm still neutral on to see where they head with it. JP is a great canvas to work with for fantasy/thrill/fun/placemaking but they still need to find that fun combination.. Outside of HP, they haven't convinced me yet. I'm not drooling over transformers.. and especially not how they've planted it down in USF. Still holding final judgement.. but Hogsmeade it sure ain't :D

I dunno ... but folks have often suggested a going back to ticket books as the answer both for fans in terms of crowds and the company in terms of maximizing the 'value' of each attraction. That gets read in Burbank and Glendale and turned into an a la carte model for the parks (like airlines today) that wouldn't work under the current system, but certainly could under NGE.

I think you hear that more from the west coasters who are fed up with the AP system there. I don't think ticket books is necessary - you just need to have more than one level of payout from the APs so they can carry their weight. I've long advocated a loyalty program combined with bulk ticketing as the way to get out of the AP conundrum that DLR is in. A model that rewards those true spenders, but also ensures they spend to get those rewards and not just lay some money out front as a one time fee.
 

WDW1974

Well-Known Member
Original Poster
We just got back from DLR. We renewed our DLR AP,and got the deluxe. Now for the interesting part. The new passes are called recyclable, meaning we keep the same physical card forever. The system gets updated, and the card will be reloaded annually. The only time we will get a new card is if there is a design change, or an option for a different design. Our photos are not on the card, but in the system, and appear onscreen at the gate.
We happened to be seated next to Werner Weiss from Yesterland at Carthay Circle at dinner. He was being treated to a meal by someone from Mice Chat. Of course we eavsdropped, but nothing of any interest was said, except that the Mice Chat guy commented to Werner: "Of course you heard that whole budget just got dropped."

I don't know Werner personally (just who he is). Wonder who he was dining with ... as to the budget that could have referred to anything really. Disney does that with such regularity, after all!
 

Yensid1974

Well-Known Member
As long as I am breathing ... there sure as (blank) is!:);):cool:

I'm happy to hear this. I think we need to keep our hearts, and hopes up as there can be a brighter future. Honestly, it is the likes of yourself and a few others here that helps me head into work every day and drive that boat around the Jungle telling the jokes, and keeping that smile on my face, all the while keeping in the back of my head that at some point there will be a better future. I'd be honored to have any one of you be a part of my crew while I take you into the Jungle. :)
 

WDW1974

Well-Known Member
Original Poster
Did I get it right? :D Do you know when anything would start to leak/be announced?

If you were talking about Kidzone, Madagascar and Kung Fu Panda wouldn't bother me (haven't watched them), but I would like to see How to Train Your Dragon and Shrek attractions in/stay in the park.

For me personally, with the current Kidzone, I hope they keep ET, and I would imagine that they would keep Woody Woodpecker (or it would just be rethemed - they need a kiddy coaster in the park). I haven't seen Animal Actors on Location yet, but I would hope they would keep it (isn't this the second or third version of an animal show there?). It wouldn't bother me if they removed Barney, Fievel and Curious George, although I do read that people with children get a lot of use out of Curious George - and I would imagine that they will still have a playground in Kidzone, even if it was rethemed.

If you were talking about Seuss Landing, then I would happily take any attraction there, as long as it was more Cat in the Hat, and less Caro-Seuss-El/OFTFRFBF.

I have no idea on any specific timeline for announcements at UNI. They like to keep things under wraps (relatively speaking) with just enough leaking to get fans hot and bothered with the knowledge that they don't have the same business modeling as WDW.

Look at Potter, it's going up in two parks in front of everyone and they haven't officially said one word. And they don't intend to for quite a while.

I guess when you actually are building things you don't have to hold press events to announce things like ... benches. I can't wait for the Tangled toilets events, every blogger in O-Town will be fighting for position!
 

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