Spirited News and Observations and Opinions ...

[flynnibus]

Maybe it’s just me, but I believe in a world where WDW, SW, Uni, Busch Tampa etc are in a “theme park arms race” – someone DOES in fact win…….the consumer. Competition is a wonderful thing for the consumer. WDW chooses to opt out of the competition.

So if 2 of those 4 eventually go out of business 'keeping up with the Jones' - you think you win out in the end by that? It's one thing to consider the benefit as the customer - but one must also consider the consumer needs healthy providers as well. Hey, why doesn't the grocery store make everything 1/4 the price? That would be great for the customer!!

Competition is good - race to the bottom or spending without a substance plan is not.

To my knowledge, the Birthday buttons do not have the child’s name on it. If they do, I would “opt out” to have my child’s name on it……just a plain birthday button. And, personally, my kids are getting MouseEars, but no names on them.

They can and will write the person's name on it if desired. And lots do.

I do not want animatronics, Princesses, McQueen, or any CM at WDW to know and address my children by name. Ever.

Don't go on Disney Cruise Lines then... because didn't all of you know.. they already do this! Haven't you heard of all the creepers stealing children because of it???

Your preference on your child's information is your preference - that's fine. And from the information shared already, it looks like Disney will give you that option to make that preference known. So no skin off your back.

 

[Lee]

You mean like being forced to create an account on a forum before you can view it's photos?
or being forced to create an account to use the website at all?
Or how about that sweepstakes entry for a chance to win?

Data collection as a trade for services or goods is a decades old practice.

Why single Disney out?

Just seems....wrong.

Especially for a place that has historically offered a fairly level playing field, where everyone that bought a ticket had the same experience without any extra concessions or work.

And I don't think your comparisons really fit. For example, a sweepstakes entry doesn't require you to "give up" anything, simply to fill out a firm. ("No purchase necessary...")
Disney is requiring something in exchange for access to FP+.

 

[ParentsOf4]

Funny - yet in 40+ years.. it hasn't happened. I guess all those lawyers are still assembling their cases..

This is the first time Disney is in possible violation of a Constitutional right.

The Supreme Court unanimously ruled (less than 1 year ago) that a tracking device is a form of search. It's still yet to be decided whether such a device is a violation of the 4th Amendment. I'm sure the issue will appear before the court again. As I've written several times before, this is cutting edge stuff and hardly is settled law.

Is a tracking device a violation of the 4th Amendment? Are RCID and TWDC effectively, one and the same?

I'm not suggesting who will win the argument in court, I'm only suggesting that writing "no sound lawyer would ever try to make that case in court" is premature.

 

[SirLink]

You again state something you think will happen (sold to third party) as fact - when in fact it is not known as fact

Yes, because I'm sure every trip before this you've paid for your trip from Europe to WDW exclusively with cash and providing fake names and addresses for all your hotel reservations.

Yes it clearly is - selling data is big business, to gain the extra revenue required to payoff the $2billion won't just come from selling upgraded bands with pictures of Furries, Princesses and Pixies on them...

Nope your right I don't I go through the travel agent and when the form to sign has a check box that says "Tick this box if you DON'T WANT you details passed on to third parties" I tick it...problem solved. If the info is passed on i.e. sold, there are large areas to redress of grievance here in the UK.

It is funny though when I booked through a holiday firm for a hotel in the states, year or two ago, they didn't have my name at reception...all they had was the customer reference number...you know like privacy is supposed to be treated at all times ...

 

[flynnibus]

I'll admit I was using hyperbole about it just being a room key. However, Disney WILL market this. A $2 billion dollar investment without marketing it as a "new experience" would be ridiculous. But Disney will market it, & will package it up to be some amazing new offering without saying exactly what the program is really for. I'm sure things like that happen in every day life already but I'm still dumb-founded they are spending all of this money on it.

Disney will build new products off the baseline functionalities. From Interactive Queues, to FP+, to advance ordering, etc, etc, etc. Those are the things Disney will market when those services are being rolled out and advertised to customers. 'NextGen' or the underlying tech is never going to be what Disney puts forward - nor should they.

But is it $2 billion worth of new stuff or are you just talking normal operating costs & things like upgrading software & new cash registers? I'm sure there are tons of things that inane people would say WDW is wasting money on instead of rides & attractions. Like updating lights to be more energy effecient & things of that nature... or in jest, maintenance, CMs for crowd control, or themed napkins.

It's both - building a new highway overpass can cost over 100 million dollars. Upgrading TVs in hotel rooms costs millions.

But how many people said 'God Damn Disney.. stop spending money replacing those CRT monitors in my hotel room and give me back my napkins!! I'm never in my room anyways!!' - but if you checked into a room and it had 70s technology in it.. you'd be ed.

Or how many people fought Disney spending money to implement charging back to your room in the parks?

This stuff doesn't come for free - but people take it for granted. Here, we are scrutinizing Disney rolling out new services... primarily for the reason people know a huge cost # associated with it and the fan conscious says 'imagine what that kind of money could do elsewhere...'

 

[flynnibus]

This is the first time Disney is in possible violation of a Constitutional right.

The Supreme Court unanimously ruled (less than 1 year ago) that tracking devices are a form of search. It's still yet to be decided whether such a device is a violation of the 4th Amendment. I'm sure the issue will appear before the court again. As I've written several times before, this is cutting edge stuff and hardly is settled law.

Now you've taken your earlier stretch.. and tried to double your pleasure with it?

Oh my.. this train of thought is so far off-base I'm not wasting my time with it anymore. Don't worry, we'll never hear a lawsuit about RCID performing illegal searches due to TWDC's RFID guest bands.

Expectation of Privacy and Illegal Search and Seizure are two completely different areas. Stop using a case about Search and Seizure by the government when talking about Expectation of Privacy.

 

[flynnibus]

Yes it clearly is - selling data is big business, to gain the extra revenue required to payoff the $2billion won't just come from selling upgraded bands with pictures of Furries, Princesses and Pixies on them...

Yet you have no problem with Disney assuming spending hundreds of millions on attractions that themselves will never collect a dime.. will make their return in increased revenue from other company avenues. Or that spending millions to hire bus fleets will never pay itself off by increasing hotel stays.

I just want to be sure what you consider 'legit' spending on non-revenue generating projects vs projects you think can never work unless they are resold.

Nope your right I don't I go through the travel agent and when the form to sign has a check box that says "Tick this box if you DON'T WANT you details passed on to third parties" I tick it...problem solved

So you trust your travel agent with the info.. but you don't trust Disney.

Ok, double standard noted.

 

[xdan0920]

@flynnibus

Just a quick question for you.

Do you think this NextGen initiative is really going to have a positive impact on the guest experience? I don't see anyway that it does. Even if we take out all the possibilities that have been talked about here, and just stick to the very basic facts of what we know, ie...FP+, Magicbands, Cruise ship style payment system. How does any of this benefit the "guest"?

 

[flynnibus]

Just seems....wrong.

Especially for a place that has historically offered a fairly level playing field, where everyone that bought a ticket had the same experience without any extra concessions or work.

And I don't think your comparisons really fit. For example, a sweepstakes entry doesn't require you to "give up" anything, simply to fill out a firm. ("No purchase necessary...")
Disney is requiring something in exchange for access to FP+.

Filling out that sweepstakes form is giving the company your info for marketing purposes (and most to resell it). That's how they fund the things.. and why sweepstakes are done by 3rd parties in the first place. You are 'giving up' your personal info in trade for an opportunity to win. At least at Disney you know who you are giving it to, with a fixed policy, and no 'if I win..'

The whole 'level playing field' thing is so tired and untrue. Onsite vs offsite... Hotel Service levels.. Paid tours... etc. Disney offers a lot as complementary - but uniform for all they are not.

 

[SirLink]

Yet you have no problem with Disney assuming spending hundreds of millions on attractions that themselves will never collect a dime.. will make their return in increased revenue from other company avenues. Or that spending millions to hire bus fleets will never pay itself off by increasing hotel stays.

I just want to be sure what you consider 'legit' spending on non-revenue generating projects vs projects you think can never work unless they are resold.

So you trust your travel agent with the info.. but you don't trust Disney.

Ok, double standard noted.

1)Nope I have no problem them spending money on actual attractions ... in the themed amusement industry it has seemed to work fine up to this point...the point of the attraction is to sell merchandise and food and beverage ala WWOHP. You spend the investment in a killer attraction that when people come of said attraction, the people say: "Wow I must have a memento to remember what I just experienced."

2)I trust the travel agent as I haven't given up my privacy to get the holiday I wanted. E.g. It is like me wanting transfers to and from the airport. Then the travel agent says I can only have that if I accept my data being sold to third parties ... they would never try that as it would be moronic. Just think of the stink we made over having to be subjected to I.D. cards over here ... and it was quietly dropped from the government's discussion.

But my your defending the Brand quite strong today

 

[Lee]

The whole 'level playing field' thing is so tired and untrue. Onsite vs offsite... Hotel Service levels.. Paid tours... etc. Disney offers a lot as complementary - but uniform for all they are not.

What I'm saying was that for the price of a ticket, every guest was entitled to the same park experience. The same access to FP, the sane ability to visit a restaurant, to get a good parade or fireworks viewing spot, etc.
Under the new system, if you opt out...no FP for you. No booking a parade spot or FP in advance.

Of course there have always been extra-cost add-ons like tours or better hotels to enhance your visit, but the floor, the minimum, remained no matter what.
This new plan changes that. A $90 ticket doesn't provide the same experience to those who opt out. FP+ does gave a cost...you have to opt in and take part in NextGen.

 

[Shadowgate]

I have been going to Disney World since 1975 and have been there 23 times to date with November 2011 being the most recent trip. We as a family are very Pro-Disney eventhough I would have to state my wife always jokes that Disney hates mothers since they are always killed off in most of their animated movies but that is another conversation...

I am also someone in the information business so I have some grasp of that side of this issue.

So I am hoping I have a "somewhat" balance view on this and I can see the advantage and potential for great and terrible things coming out of the use of this technology. A true double edged sword.

I think the ability to have interactive rides and such is very cool! The thing is that on the other side of the blade Disney is going to have a great deal of information on my family and despite all there own rules on how they will use this information there are always going to be people that can get this if they really want it AND there is no saying that at some future date that Disney’s privacy rules will not change. As with the internet data never goes away so today your data is "safe" but tomorrow who knows.

As for the physical tracking I can see this again as good and bad but again it could be abused by someone. Then not only do you have Disney spending over a billion dollars on this but they will likely be in court over this before and after this goes in wasting more money on this. I really think it would have been better used to put the park back to what they were previously and to add additional rides.

That said, we are planning our next trip for Spring of 2014 and for the first time since my daughter was born we are not staying exclusively at WDW but will be splitting our normal 9 day trip with 3 days at Universal and 6 at WDW. This being due to Universal additions of Harry Potter and other new rides that appeal to my daughter... even though she LOVES Disney. I can't say for sure that if Disney spent the billion + dollars on more rides if this would have changed this but it sure would have made it a harder decision. The negatives of the actual tracking and data mining will be something at the back of my mind that may in the future make me questions WDW's appeal depending on how much the use it for obvious positive features to balance out the real and potential negative ones.

 

[BlueSkyDriveBy]

What I'm saying was that for the price of a ticket, every guest was entitled to the same park experience. The same access to FP, the sane ability to visit a restaurant, to get a good parade or fireworks viewing spot, etc.
Under the new system, if you opt out...no FP for you. No booking a parade spot or FP in advance.

Of course there have always been extra-cost add-ons like tours or better hotels to enhance your visit, but the floor, the minimum, remained no matter what.
This new plan changes that. A $90 ticket doesn't provide the same experience to those who opt out. FP+ does gave a cost...you have to opt in and take part in NextGen.

This is the major sticking point for me regarding FP+ versus the original FP. Lee is absolutely correct about the playing field not being level now.

Being able to reserve queue time in advance of your visit reduces the number of available FPs in the park on any given day. That's important. When everyone had the same equal access to the FP machines once the park gates opened, that was fair and equitable. But now, simply booking your visit in advance and purchasing opt-in ticket media allows you to virtually cut in line ahead of other visitors and nab a FP for your favorite ride even before the park opens.

How is that not offering a level playing field to guests?

 

[lazyboy97o]

Who are you kidding? TWDC has absolute control over who gets to be RCID board members. Heck, every single RCID board member has intimate ties with Disney.

On more than one occasion, the Supreme Court has stepped in and thrown aside such "tricks" to get to the core of the issue. It's nice that you are willing to make such an emphatic statement as fact but I strongly suspect many "sound lawyers" would be willing to argue the case.

Disney wanted to create RCID exactly because Disney wanted the powers of a government. Well, they got it. Now they're going to have to own up to the responsibilities of a government.

The State of Florida has already sued the Reedy Creek Improvement District and what was then Walt Disney Productions to ensure that the arrangement would hold up in the courts. They're legally distinct and new programs by The Walt Disney Company have yet to change that situation.

 

[WDW1974]

Two interesting links here, one directly about Disney and Next Gen, the other about privacy and companies in general.

http://www.salon.com/2013/01/07/mickey_mouses_magic_handcuffs/

http://m.usatoday.com/article/money/1566094?preferredArticleViewMode=single

And why can't I help that but thinking that someone here is auditioning for a job ... Brian Charles Kohn proved that doesn't work back in the RADP days.

 

[flynnibus]

How is that not offering a level playing field to guests?

Emh anyone? The on site person gets both longer park hours and first access to lines.

How is that a level playing field when other people get an hour head start?

The same disparities exist in the cruise ship too with loyalty program people get first dibs at reservations and boarding

Or how about the person who can modify their ADR 24/7 because they opt'd in to creating an online profile vs the person who refuses and has to only use phone agents?

Or how about those GAC cards?

We could keep going on...

 

[WDW1974]

And the changes begin ... how many eventual changes do you think Disney is going to make before Jay and Nick's wet-dream datamining project gets off the ground?

<<Disney has changed the pin code policy for MyMagic+ 'touch to pay' payments effective today. All 'touch to pay' purchases on a Key to the World Resort ID card now require a PIN code. Previously, only purchases over $50 required a PIN code to be entered.>>

I know I feel much better. This is a HUGE step. I now know that my son's $23.87 purchase will need him to type in 6969 in order to go through, all the while he is being tracked through the MK.

 

[WDW1974]

We could keep going on...

I think some of us who can post 24/7 can ... others of us, unfortunately, can't ...

 

[SirLink]

And the changes begin ... how many eventual changes do you think Disney is going to make before Jay and Nick's wet-dream datamining project gets off the ground?

<<Disney has changed the pin code policy for MyMagic+ 'touch to pay' payments effective today. All 'touch to pay' purchases on a Key to the World Resort ID card now require a PIN code. Previously, only purchases over $50 required a PIN code to be entered.>>

I know I feel much better. This is a HUGE step. I now know that my son's $23.87 purchase will need him to type in 6969 in order to go through, all the while he is being tracked through the MK.

Oh you Spirit you and your humor ... I prefer having another check in place ... but I won't be using the system ... I'm more interested in how the database look-up is supposed to fast YET encrypted securely enough...

Also I think I have found the perfect way to describe NextGen the Rumpelstiltskin Clause.

 

[CoachG]

This is the major sticking point for me regarding FP+ versus the original FP. Lee is absolutely correct about the playing field not being level now.

Being able to reserve queue time in advance of your visit reduces the number of available FPs in the park on any given day. That's important. When everyone had the same equal access to the FP machines once the park gates opened, that was fair and equitable. But now, simply booking your visit in advance and purchasing opt-in ticket media allows you to virtually cut in line ahead of other visitors and nab a FP for your favorite ride even before the park opens.

How is that not offering a level playing field to guests?

I'm a long time lurker but I thought I would jump in for a second. I don't see the opt-in/opt-out as being something unfair. If I go to Kroger I can buy a loaf of bread for $1.50 but if I sign up for their rewards program then I can buy that loaf for $1.00 - this seems to be the same kind of thing. If you share your info with them they give you a reward. Isn't the system already unfair that someone who knows they want to eat steak 6 months ahead of time can book Le Cellier while someone who wakes up and decides day of cannot get in? Nothing in life is fair - not even the way things used to/currently work at Disney.

The issue I have with it is that it seems like a huge waste of resources for the guest because Disney is not doing it to enhance our experience - Disney seems to be doing it as a way of making money off us. I don't care if Disney knows where I'm going on their property - if someone from Disney really cared that much about me they would know regardless. They already, in most cases, know who we are, what the names of the people in our party are, our address, phone number, email, time of year we visit, where we use the DDP, what items are purchased at stores that get charged to our room card, what hotels we stay at etc.... It's not about tracking us in a "stalking" sense - its about using us as data points and leads that they can profit off of without really giving us something back. FP isn't a new idea - the option to book it in advance is but that's a pretty weak carrot to dangle for something with the potential for this much use on their end both in order to improve efficiency and to sell for profit.

I think if the NextGen project had a $5 billion price tag and was simply a portion of an overall project that included new rides and new experiences it would be much better received but as it stands right now its easy to see what Disney might get out of this deal but there's not a whole lot that's going to make a visit that much better for the customer.