Spirited News and Observations and Opinions ...

[RSoxNo1]

No, this won't be used in Shanghai.

They think it will be in Anaheim and Paris. Let me just state here, that that will never happen. Not in this form anyway.

In less than 2 weeks I will likely be purchasing a Premier Pass. I have two WDW trips planned and one Disneyland trip planned for this calendar year. This has been the norm for me every year going back to 2009 (2 or 3 WDW trips, 1 Disneyland trip). Prior to that I had been to Disneyland twice in my life, and had annual trips to WDW.

I suspect that 2014 will see a change in this. I may spend a week in Florida, but I won't be on an annual pass. It may be a 3 or 4 day hopper, a couple days in Universal and maybe a day at Sea World. I'll probably also have a trip out to Disneyland as well. All told, I'll probably spend about the same amount of money on those two trips than I would on the 3 I was taking previously, but a lot less of that money would be going to Disney.

There's a line from Pirates of the Caribbean that I'm probably not getting entirely correct but here goes:
"Where does your allegiance lie?"
"With the highest bidder"

That's what this comes down to. If people are clouded by Pixie Dust and will never change, that's on them. I can try to change them, but ultimately it's their decision. What I can control is my own actions. I can vote with my wallet and if I think my day at a Disney World park is less enjoyable that it used to be, I have less of an incentive to return.

 

[flynnibus]

In practice this is done all over the place right now. Someone mentioned it elsewhere in the thread that targetted coupons appear at super markets and drug stores based on spending practices

That is a bit different - because the Grocery systems are more geared towards targeted advertisement facilitated by the same group that is collecting the data. Your buying patterns leads to the store giving you certain promos or ads. The company sells that position to advertisers by doesn't sell the data itself. Example: 'Hi Mr Coca Cola, as safeway, I can help you boost sales by ensuring every customer that buys your competitors product can get a coupon you decide upon, handed directly to them, as a way of trying to entice them to YOUR product for their next purchase'. That's fundamentally different than saying 'Mr Coca Cola, would you like a marketing list of all the people that bought Pepsi?'. The first is selling targeted impressions, the second is selling bulk demographic data. The first is an advertiser, the second is a data collector. The first doesn't need a privacy policy saying they share data, only that they collect said data to use for advertising purposes. The second should disclose they share data.

But the grey area is 'joint marketed' - and this is where the Test Track example comes in. There are arguments that can be made by entering the pavilion of products.. you've consented that you have shown interest in the product itself (not just Test Track) and hence further marketing about the cars.. wouldn't be an external disclosure of collected data. There are many nebulous ways companies argue that you've agreed to, or requested participation in a subject area. This is why it's hopeless to be able to determine who really shared your info with your consent or not.

If this means an increase in sponsorship in the parks, I certainly see the value for Disney. As has been suggested above I wouldn't be surprised if after a trip on Test Track I start seeing an increase in chevy ads hit my e-mail box. They may come from Chevy directly or perhaps as a partnership with Disney

Certainly - and even if they don't go the route of nefarious sharing.. the 'quick easy RFID tap' makes lead generation harvesting instant and painless. Know those 'email your photo home' kiosks? Imagine if a sponsor set it up so that by just tapping your bracelet.. you send the photo home electronically.. but only if you consent to sign up for promos... It's a transaction that would take a second.. vs filling out a card like in the past. People will do it just because its painless and no one cares about the spam anyways.

 

[crispy]

Disney already was the leader without peer on how to run a theme park. They did it by providing great attractions and impeccable service. Disney wasn't just above standards - Disney WAS the standard by which many companies were measured. I am also not sure why TDO has seemed to make this an "either/or" situation - either we invest in improvements or we move forward with NextGen. They could have easily done both and reaped the rewards. I know that the FLE is an improvement, but it's easily overshadowed by the maintenance failures and the projects that are announced and then just disappear. Hyperion Wharf? Now we end up with stagnant parks and a 1.5B system that no one wants. Their PR machines can say it's to enhance the customer experience, but my customer experience would most be enhanced by being able to enjoy my vacation with being tracked and without having marketing plugs directed my way every few minutes. If I wanted that, I could go stay at a timeshare resort for free. This is about Disney's bottom line and has nothing to do with imrpoving my experience at all. To quote Judge Judy for the second time on this thread, "Don't pee on my leg and tell me it's raining."

Now, we have stale attractions, maintenance issues, and indifferent customer service. I don't care how wonderful and different NextGen is. It has no value to me at all since it won't make a stale attraction better and keep the rocks from falling off Splash Mountain. Maybe TDO assumes that I will be so busy staring at the screen of my smart phone that I won't notice the maintenace issues.

For what it's worth, I am only 37, and I don't have a smart phone and I refuse to get a Facebook account because I don't want my life to be on display for everyone to read and I don't want to be tied to device instead of enjoying life. When I say the NextGen has no benefit for me, I mean that sincerely.

 

[disneyflush]

The biggest issue I have with this, and feel like Spirit and ParentsOf4 are seeing as well, is the tracking issue. The employees that are granted access to this data/technology will know in real time where you and every member of your party are in the whole of the property.

If Disney has 5,000 employees with real-time access to this information and 5,000 employees use it for completely job-related functions then things go smoothly. If 4,999 employees use it for completely job-related functions but just 1 employee goes off the deep end and uses it to focus a little too much attention on a particular young person, and the general public finds out, this whole system will blow up in Disney's face in colossal ways.

 

[scpergj]

Just a few final thoughts for the night, as we go back and forth about various ethical concerns and privacy rights this entire program has brought up.

Is it wise to give a constant/realtime status update of a child and his/her family's location to a company? Because of the personalization (extreme?) aspect of Disney's NEXT GEN is it smart to have your child's name (and, perhaps, likes) released in a hotel/resort setting where any person can make a personal connection with your child? Is Disney helping pave the way for stranger danger (as we used to call it)?

Is it wise to let a hotel operator (in this case) Disney have the technology to know that your 12-year-old son Brandon (so cute with those blue eyes and curly blonde hair) or your 14-year-old daughter Briana (really looking like a young woman so developed in that bikini by the pool) is all alone in their room while the rest of the family is miles away at another theme park/resort locale? (Heck, maybe only 88-year-old Grammy is back by herself wearing that $6,000 ring that she shows anyone and everyone but I wanna stick with the kids and not go off-point).

Is it really desirable for a multi-billion dollar media conglomerate (or, hell, ANY company) to be making direct contact and solicitations with your kids for a product or service in a personal/intrusive manner that may well be something you oppose or like but simply don't have the budget for?

This.

Look, for those of you that say that we are on Disney's property and it is their right to monitor us, you are correct. However, Disney has an obligation to safely handle any data they gather, and also the obligation to ensure the safety of the guests on property.

We have all seen the stories of the animals that prey on children being in the employ of the Mouse - no, not the Mouse's fault, there are evil people everywhere. So, lets say that one of them is a DBA for WDW and has access to the data warehouse that stores this information. All that guy has to do is write a relatively simple query (trust me, it's simple - I write code every day, including database queries), execute it on the database (or data warehouse) and find that little Jimmy, the bright eyed 12 year old kid, is hanging at the game center at Fort Wilderness. His 14 year old sister is also there, but with a group of 16 year old boys keeping her distracted. So our creep grabs a roll of quarters and heads to the game room, finds Jimmy....and the rest is all bad.

Disney CANNOT guarantee they do not hire these criminal creeps any more than any other company can. Would you trust your children to that? Not me...

 

[alphac2005]

The biggest issue I have with this, and feel like Spirit and ParentsOf4 are seeing as well, is the tracking issue. The employees that are granted access to this data/technology will know in real time where you and every member of your party are in the whole of the property.

If Disney has 5,000 employees with real-time access to this information and 5,000 employees use it for completely job-related functions then things go smoothly. If 4,999 employees use it for completely job-related functions but just 1 employee goes off the deep end and uses it to focus a little too much attention on a particular young person, and the general public finds out, this whole system will blow up in Disney's face in colossal ways.

Welcome to the debate of how the American government collects data and this exact same premise of a rogue operative(s) using data for a variety of wrong/unlawful reasons. The problem with everything, though, is do we run on the premise of not doing something because a what if someone does something that's not the purpose of use of the information. Go through any major American city (and our British friends well know about it from their CCTV) and you have networks of countless cameras with people being watched. Now because of the premise of a rogue operative, do we not have that because of what could be done with it or do we have it because the pros vastly outweigh the cons? I'm not positioning on either side here, rather just saying that Disney data mining in the manner that they're doing it falls into the category of discussion we're having a lot here in America.

Unlike the grocery store that knows what you buy, the Disney system is knowing what you buy, and can know exactly where you are, so it's quite the hybrid, more than just knowing you like doughnuts at the store.

 

[orky8]

You are looking at it with such a narrow window of time - that's why it doesn't resonate with you. Think of all the money Disney spent implementing Fastpass. A decade later, do you really wish you would have gotten that one attraction instead... or do you appreciate the dozens of attractions that you can access easier with Fastpass, every visit, every time, for many years since?

On New Year's Eve at DCA, I walked on to little mermaid three times. On New Year's Eve at Magic Kingdom, there was a 2.5 hour wait for the same attraction. Even if I could have gotten a fastpass at Magic Kingdom, or booked a MyMagic+ journey time six months in advance (though I planned my visit to DCA a mere week in advance), I still was better off walking onto it three times at DCA. And yes, I'd rather WDW spent the last ten years and the next ten years adding attractions of the caliber we are seeing down the street at USO, across the country at DCA, or on the other side of the globe then invest in fastpass plus+. Solve the issue I described above first, then invest in MyMagic+.

 

[crispy]

Welcome to the debate of how the American government collects data and this exact same premise of a rogue operative(s) using data for a variety of wrong/unlawful reasons. The problem with everything, though, is do we run on the premise of not doing something because a what if someone does something that's not the purpose of use of the information. Go through any major American city (and our British friends well know about it from their CCTV) and you have networks of countless cameras with people being watched. Now because of the premise of a rogue operative, do we not have that because of what could be done with it or do we have it because the pros vastly outweigh the cons? I'm not positioning on either side here, rather just saying that Disney data mining in the manner that they're doing it falls into the category of discussion we're having a lot here in America.

Unlike the grocery store that knows what you buy, the Disney system is knowing what you buy, and can know exactly where you are, so it's quite the hybrid, more than just knowing you like doughnuts at the store.

The question is - What are the pros for me as a Disney consumer? I see where this could be to Disney's advantage, but I see nothing in it for me as a customer. I am not saying it's okay for them to track customers even if there is an advantage to it for me (because I don't like that at all!), but assuming I was okay with that, I still don't see how this system makes the guest experience any better at all.

 

[alphac2005]

The question is - What are the pros for me as a Disney consumer? I see where this could be to Disney's advantage, but I see nothing in it for me as a customer. I am not saying it's okay for them to track customers even if there is an advantage to it for me (because I don't like that at all!), but assuming I was okay with that, I still don't see how this system makes the guest experience any better at all.

I'm right there with you. The system isn't made for us to improve our guest experience, rather the Walt Disney Company's earnings. What are we getting with the wristband? A scheduled vacation, top to bottom. The loss of a spontaneous vacation and for those not opting into FastPass+, a LOT longer times waiting around in their interactive queues as they rapidly expand and essentially class tier ride time availability.

So, as a consumer, you're getting nothing, expect a snazzy rubber wristband. Ahem.

 

[ParentsOf4]

@ParentsOf4 the problem with your US v Jones opinion is that government applied a tracking device to the defendants vehicle, not a private business that he had patronized. Nowhere in that opinion does it address private entities, because they are treated separately from government. Not saying that I personally agree with that rationale.

If you (people in general) don't like the new policy, the way to avoid it is to not go.

Or I could simply wrap the RFID chip in a few layers of aluminum foil.

There are a number of products on the market that effectively block RFID signals.

As I previously have written, I have little issue with using a passive device or with engaging a device at locations and times of my choosing. I accept that when I initiate a transaction, whether it is online or in person, there is an exchange of information that private companies have access to.

As I suggested here (http://forums.wdwmagic.com/threads/nextgen-deep-impact.857159/page-4#post-5245408) and elsewhere, Disney clearly intends to profile each guest and “reward” them for “proper” behavior. Whether I like it or not, I believe it’s within Disney’s prerogative to do so.

However, I find it insulting and dehumanizing for Disney to track my every move as if I were a convict out on parole.

United States v. Jones clearly establishes that tracking devices are a form of search. This ruling is less than a year old. Despite what you think, the question of private tracking devices is by no means settled law. I fully expect legislatures and courts to address this matter further.

 

[RSoxNo1]

If you're a modern consumer, you've essentially opted in data mining any and everywhere. I don't mind using my store loyalty card, for example at the grocery store, as we get targeted booklets of coupons that either discount or offer free packages of the products that we buy. I choose to sign up and I know the ramifications. I understand that in the alternate conspiracy universe, the prevailing thinking is that there can be a complete profile of you as a person, if somehow, someway, every single data point from each and every store, and every company was linked together from countless separate databases. Now, I can see legally that if that was done in a criminal justice matter, it can be disconcerting, but lets get real about things. In reality in the United States, these giant data mining operations actually exist in the name of "safety and terrorism" where all of our email, data, and phone communications are being stored. So, Disney knowing that I like their chicken fingers and Figment merchandise, that doesn't bother me too much.

Data mining is about companies maximizing profit, they could care less about "you" as you are just another cog in the money making machine.

Just as you've posted, it's not so much the data mining because Disney has been doing that for sometime in many other ways, rather the endless scheduling and turning a vacation into, well, a chore. It's already become a mess with the dining reservations. Sorry, I don't want to schedule meals, rides, and everything else months in advance. When everything becomes calculated and/or scheduled, you lose so much enjoyment.

A dining reservation or two, that's OK, but everything planned out, UGH. Not to mention that it's so darn hard to get a reservation where you want it as it stands. Essentially pre-booking your rides. Really? People are overscheduled and absurd enough as it is, now we'll have the masses running around to make their ride times. (In much greater numbers than the current FastPass.)

The bracelet? Not for me personally, but at least you can just use a plastic card instead. I don't want to wear a bracelet and I don't care to collect yet some other junk from Disney. It's novel, but I just might want to walk in, go on an attraction, see the audio animatronics actually work, and just maybe, while it's cool that a character can so called talk to a kid by name, well, isn't that part of the problem in our culture today? Catering everything to children, creating these little narcissistic monsters, making them think they're the best and greatest, it goes on and on. Check out a BBC magazine piece this past weekend about this subject, it's quite interesting. In a nutshell, our kids (Note: American kids) are scoring worse on testing than in the 60's, but they think they're better than ever and can do anything. Ugh, I see these kids and their parents, and as a sane parent, it's nauseating.

Legal challenges to this? Sometimes I wish I finished the track to law school , but just as previously noted, nearly every consumer or privacy act in this country can be loopholed around. Legal would not have proceeded if it wasn't abundantly clear that this would not violate any current standing statute.

One of the many posts I made today in this thread was about spending more time in Disneyland. The appeal to me is that I can dine at my favorite restaurants without reservations made 180 days in advance and I can hop back and forth between parks, maximizing Fastpass usage if I so desire and there's no penalty for late returns.

This makes my vacation easier, and if I want to go back to the hotel for a couple of hours, or better yet, just walk around for a couple of hours without going on a ride, I can do that.

 

[Bolna]

Just a few final thoughts for the night, as we go back and forth about various ethical concerns and privacy rights this entire program has brought up.

Even though this is only an introductory sentence to the following post, you did sum up something that has become clear to me while reading this thread.

What is ethical and what is legal often is not the same. There are many things that are legal, but still people don't consider them the right thing to do - like cheating on one's husband or wife, being rude to people in wheelchairs etc.

There appears to be a tendency by some posters to only measure what Disney is going to do by whether it is legal or not. Of course that is one important way to look at it.

But even if it is legal - should there not also be the question of whether it is the right thing to do from an ethical point of view?

Just because others are doing similar things does it not make more right. And as a Disney fan I find it only appropriate to discuss this topic in relation to something I truly enjoy - WDW - or at least have in the past. I must say I am at the moment feeling rather less excited about my upcoming trip to WDW in the spring thanks to MyMagic+.

This whole issue of personal data is still a relatively new one to human society as never before was it so easy to collect, store and access data. We are still evolving ethics about this. And also the law. The law is not a static thing - it can change if many people consider a behaviour that is legal wrong for ethical reasons.

 

[flynnibus]

I am also not sure why TDO has seemed to make this an "either/or" situation - either we invest in improvements or we move forward with NextGen

I think that is an assumption by the fans and why there is so much angst. Operating costs for ongoing upkeep really aren't competing with decisions on long-term capital investments. The issues with upkeep and show standards are operational decisions and strategy at those levels. Decisions around upkeep and overhead are things typically looked at in terms of percentages and modeled on what your targeted PnL ranges are. You don't go 'well, we can decide to hire three more maintenance workers, and order 2 more weeks worth of parts... or invest in NextGen'. It doesn't work that way. There are different 'colors' of money in organizations like this.. and capital expense is handled very differently than operational expenses and budgeting.

 

[flynnibus]

There appears to be a tendency by some posters to only measure what Disney is going to do by whether it is legal or not. Of course that is one important way to look at it.

It's a valid point - and one I've been trying to raise. There is can/cant/should - they may overlap, but they are not the same. All too often people blur what they think 'should' is an apply it to can/cant. People are often just trying to make that distinction where others fail to.

When people start throwing around terms like 'my rights' - well those are usually tied into BELIEFS, not necessarily legal can/cant not. It's very common for people to believe they have a right to something.. for which there is no such legal basis

 

[flynnibus]

On New Year's Eve at DCA, I walked on to little mermaid three times. On New Year's Eve at Magic Kingdom, there was a 2.5 hour wait for the same attraction

Don't try to make this into 'FP makes lines longer..' thread. For all it's consequences.. if FP were taken away tomorrow most people would throw a fit.

And yes, I'd rather WDW spent the last ten years and the next ten years adding attractions of the caliber we are seeing down the street at USO, across the country at DCA, or on the other side of the globe then invest in fastpass plus+. Solve the issue I described above first, then invest in MyMagic+.

Your ideal is not sustainable. You can't just keep adding the best of what everyone is doing. It's a hard fact fans need to get over... you can't sustain the expansion of the 90s in WDW every year.. or build a new DCA every 5 years, etc. These are cyclical changes - not annual things.

 

[disneyflush]

Welcome to the debate of how the American government collects data and this exact same premise of a rogue operative(s) using data for a variety of wrong/unlawful reasons. The problem with everything, though, is do we run on the premise of not doing something because a what if someone does something that's not the purpose of use of the information. Go through any major American city (and our British friends well know about it from their CCTV) and you have networks of countless cameras with people being watched. Now because of the premise of a rogue operative, do we not have that because of what could be done with it or do we have it because the pros vastly outweigh the cons? I'm not positioning on either side here, rather just saying that Disney data mining in the manner that they're doing it falls into the category of discussion we're having a lot here in America.

Unlike the grocery store that knows what you buy, the Disney system is knowing what you buy, and can know exactly where you are, so it's quite the hybrid, more than just knowing you like doughnuts at the store.

I totally get the datamining aspect of this initiative, and the movement towards this in our society on a greater scale, and why it is happening. Its terrifying and full of convenience all at once. I do understand that cameras are everywhere and I can be tracked if someone or some organization were oddly inclined to want to follow around a billionaire, playboy bachelor such as myself and track my activities. Those aspects are not to be ignored and can be argued for the pros and cons to making a Disney vacation more immersive or convenient but I'll leave that to much smarter people than myself on here.

My main point is what @scpergj stated in his post, that it will only take the one individual to take advantage of the tracking aspect of this system and it will be the company's, and every potential vacationing parent's, worst nightmare. I realize this is the worst case scenario but is absolutely within the realm of possibility. Heaven forbid the system becomes compromised or a security flaw (most new systems are rife with them) is exposed and an outside party gains access to the same data. The real time tracking has limitless negative consequences if even 1 incident happens. If multiple were to happen I would think Disney would give quite a bit of thought to shutting it down.

 

[CTXRover]

Read through this and the MagicBand thread sporadically over the past few days. All the conspiracy theories aside that Disney is trying to ruin each guest's ability to enjoy the parks all in the name of trying to make more money, the more 'official' and non-official stuff I've read thus far shows potential great promise to this whole thing.

I have the same gripes as probably anyone here. I personally don't go to the parks for interactive experiences. Despite what Bruce Vaughn was quoted as saying in the NYT, I actually prefer the passive experiences at the parks. I'd rather $$ spent on new rides in each park over the past several years and upkeep of show quality.

However, I can also forsee if this works as planned having major impacts on how we as guests experience the parks. Since it hasn't even started, there is no way to say for sure whether that will be good or not. But as mentioned above, it could have far reaching implications on the entire industry if it works.

There have been a lot of strong opinions that this is not needed and will fail. While not exactly the same, they are pushing boundaries. Walt himself was told a theme park would fail, and we know how that ended. Disney was laughed at by the entire cruise industry when they were building the Magic and Wonder, known within the industry before launch as the Tragic and Blunder as family cruising would never take off. Now other companies are copying that mold. Disney is now reinventing how people experience a theme park. Maybe in 5+ years, parks that don't offer pre-planning or personalized experiences will be seen as a subpar prodcut. Then again, maybe not....too soon to tell.

 

[orky8]

Don't try to make this into 'FP makes lines longer..' thread. For all it's consequences.. if FP were taken away tomorrow most people would throw a fit.

Your ideal is not sustainable. You can't just keep adding the best of what everyone is doing. It's a hard fact fans need to get over... you can't sustain the expansion of the 90s in WDW every year.. or build a new DCA every 5 years, etc. These are cyclical changes - not annual things.

I'm not -- I'm turning it into an "add good attractions and you don't need MyMagic+ thread." I'm not blamming FastPass on the line (though it contributes), I'm blaming the fact that in 20 years, that is the best ride that has been added to the Magic Kingdom. Of Disneyland, Walt said:

"It's something that will never be finished. Something that I can keep developing...and adding to."
"Disneyland will never be completed. It will continue to grow as long as there is imagination left in the world."

As long as there is imagination left in the world, I expect Magic Kingdom to keep adding new and greater attractions. TDO (and you) seem to be lacking imagination.

 

[Bolna]

When people start throwing around terms like 'my rights' - well those are usually tied into BELIEFS, not necessarily legal can/cant not. It's very common for people to believe they have a right to something.. for which there is no such legal basis

Oh - we could go in a very deep debate about the legal philosophy of rights there - does it mean that you don't have a certain right, just because it isn't officially recognized by the country you live in?

 

[Soarin' Over Pgh]

This thread is making my head hurt.