Spirited News and Observations and Opinions ...

ParentsOf4

Well-Known Member
Jones does not apply. The Fourth Amendment applies to governmental searches and seizures, but not those done by private citizens or organizations who are not acting on behalf of a government.
What I suggested in my previous posts is that what Disney is trying to accomplish with NextGen is much more intrusive, more far-reaching than Jones. Consider the questions raised by Jones, where the government installed tracking devices on automobiles to track suspected criminals. With NextGen, a private company is attempting to require (no "opt out" option) customers to carry with them at all times tracking devices without cause. Again, what Disney is trying to do raises highly disturbing questions, questions I consider much more profound than Jones.
 

alissafalco

Well-Known Member
I may be a bit more understanding if the parks weren't stale and attractions weren't falling apart, and nothing new of substance or worthy of a purposeful visit is planned. As it is all I see is 2 Billion + down the drain for something that guests don't need whilst the parks continue to deteriorate in all areas and the competition continues to catch up, and in certain areas continue to race ahead.
Sorry Jim, you're a nice guy, but I really hope this whole misguided project falls flat on its behind. Assuming the multitude of kinks you have ever get sorted out.

This^^^^^
I'm so upset that 2 billion+ could have been used to improve the MANY problems with the parks and resorts. How do they not see that putting that money into the new rides/upkeep/cm training -crowd control etc. is what is going to bring people back, and that is how they will make a profit. Are they really going to make 2 billion+ by tracking me and knowing that I bought a cinnamon roll on Main St at 3pm??? Also, all this planning and timing things down to the minute with FP+, how is this a vacation???

On a side note, I know crowd control was talked about in another thread somewhere, but when we were there in Sept. my elderly inlaws left MK after the fireworks (we stayed a little and waited for the crowds to go down) and they said to us that they have never been so scared. So many people were crowded on the bridge leading to MSUSA that they couldn't move and were packed against other standing people basically trapped. If someone made a wrong move or pushed the wrong way it could have been a real disaster. They were really frightened and said they would never do that again.
 

ParentsOf4

Well-Known Member
How exactly does this case apply?
In United States vs. Jones, the Supreme Court unanimously ruled that use of a tracking device constitutes a search. The Fourth Amendment applies only to government searches. Disney very well could win any legal battle on these grounds.

However, the public tends not to be as forgiving when it comes to perceived violations of rights. Many people won't like the idea of being tracked electronically. Public backlash could be considerable.

I am suggesting the long-term implications raised by allowing a private company to require individuals to carry active tracking devices are disturbing.
 

Longhairbear

Well-Known Member
I would think one of the biggest groups to hate/ love Next Gen is the private travel agents. We love watching the vids of Travels With Rick. They may profit greatly in any given scenario.
We have friends that are Travel Agents, and focus on high end Disney Vacations specializing in precise Itineraries. They have vowed for years that Disney lacks the tracking of guests from coast to coast, especially DVC members, and long time AP holders. One system never "talks" with the other system. To them, it was the one missing link that never made sense. Why would Disney not track their bi-coastal guests?
 

Skibum1970

Well-Known Member
Combining the food comments above with RFID tracking, they'll be able to track us and see which restaurants cause the most gastronomic disturbances.
 

BigThunderMatt

Well-Known Member
@Monty ... dude, what exactly do you think I hate? Disney? Stupidity? Mindless devotion to a BRAND? Vinylmation (of which I now own 12 :oops:)? Lou Mongello? Every loser in O-Town with a Disney site? Lousy coffee like they serve at WDW? Canadians? C'mon, at least let me know what it is that I am hating ...

I just like to think of you as a discerning consumer Spirit...and sadly there seems to be a shortage of them in O-Town these days.
 

Pumbas Nakasak

Heading for the great escape.
On the plus side just think how ubber fans will be able to demonstrate their corporate loyalty, and it will be quantifiable. Maybe Disney will publish league tables based on spend rates. perhaps thats how they intend to recoup the money, attractions are so last year and require maintenance, natural competitiveness among loyal fans to top tables is a sure fire winner.
 

icecreamrules

Active Member
They wouldn't REALLY force you to wear a bracelet 24 hours a day during your duration would they??? That would be absurd and not something I would do.

Most of the Great Wolf Lodge resorts already do - it's your room key at minimum, with the option of adding your credit card for purchasing options. I don't believe they have an opt-out.
 

John

Well-Known Member
This is a big and important distinction. Many people on here are assuming that Disney will be selling data on your personal habits while at WDW to other companies. Whether you eat fast food, play golf, drink Sprite, etc.. A personal report on the Cosmic Commando family. I agree with your opinion that it's unlikely that Disney would sell information this way. I haven't seen the privacy policy, but if it's spelled out there we probably don't have much to fear anyway. They most definitely could sell aggregated data to other companies. For instance if Coca Cola wanted to know how many people at WDW were buying soda, vs water vs iced tea and wanted the data sliced by age, gender and income level they could buy that info from WDW. While still useful data for Coke it would not give away anything personal about individuals.

hmmmmmm I wonder if I will start getting ads about black Lycra/nylon/stretchy pants?
 

Skyway

Well-Known Member
Lots of thoughts on how Disney would benefit from such data mining, both as it pertains to each individual guest and as part of a large mass of people moving around their property.

INDIVIDUAL:

Most visitors already "voluntarily" give Disney tons of personal information when they check in, buy tickets, or sign into their websites (like for wifi use): name, home address, email address, IP address, family makeup, and travel companions. Although you may not give your specific income, Disney can make some broad generalizations based on resort choice, reservation types, and certain purchases (and I imagine there is a chance that DVC and Disney credit card members may have also given the company specific income information).

The question is how Disney plans to benefit by combining the INDIVIDUAL's information they've already handed over with their movements on the property using RFID.

The most obvious benefit seems to be selling that info to other companies. Similar info is bought and sold all the time, so Disney would be no different. (And Disney "selling" this info could be in the form of selling an attraction sponsorship. "If Company X builds this attraction, we'll give them the visitor data." You'd be amazed at how that is already in play at Test Track)

In most cases, that selling of info (and Disney's direct collection and ability to use it themselves) will lead to targeted advertising. Is that a good or bad thing? There's always the concern of email spam and junk mail (which can often be opted out, if a company has any PR sense). The other side of it is that the advertising individuals will see (web banner ads, Facebook, coupon offers, recommended products on websites, etc) will be tailored to their interests ("if I'm going to be exposed to ads anyway, might as well be for things I'm interested in")

By adding the RFID tracking component, Disney (and their partners) get a better sense of exactly how much you spend and what you spend your money at Disney on since every purchase can be tracked and analyzed ("Bill Jones from Vermont doesn't spend much for hotel rooms but likes fine wines").

But I'm struggling to see how else Disney or anyone else benefits by knowing where I am at any given moment on their property as an INDIVIDUAL. Where I think the tracking most benefits Disney is by monitoring all park guests as a group.

GROUP:

By combining the info visitors voluntarily give Disney (address/hometown, general income, etc) with their movements around property, I think Disney stands to gain a tremendous amount of info.

The questions it can answer are almost limitless. Where do the big spenders eat and shop? What products are of most interest in international visitors? Which resort are guests more likely to return to for a mid-afternoon swim? Do most visitors enter Adventureland from the hub or Caribbean Plaza, and do they stop at the merchandise carts there if they've already been to the Emporium?

Such info could potentially help Disney save money or spend it more wisely by allocating resources (like staffing or maintenance) differently. It could also lead to improved profitability with better product display placement (which is already a science in the retail industry, dating back to the people who decided it was best to put milk at the back of a grocery store). Will that mean more stores packed with the same generic merchandise or a different variety? It appears future guest traffic and spending patterns will give us the answer.

Disney could certainly use the RFID tracking to recruit sponsorships by showing the precise demographics that visit.

SELLING THE TECHNOLOGY:

Spirit's update seemed to suggest Disney was willing to sell the technology (which may be how they plan to recoup most of the $2 Billion). I'm trying to predict who those customers would be. Cruise ships and other large resorts seem the most obvious, since they would mirror Disney's business. But who else? Embedding RFID in a Walmart "customer appreciation" to show how different types of people move through the store?
 

danlb_2000

Premium Member
Lots of thoughts on how Disney would benefit from such data mining, both as it pertains to each individual guest and as part of a large mass of people moving around their property.

INDIVIDUAL:

Most visitors already "voluntarily" give Disney tons of personal information when they check in, buy tickets, or sign into their websites (like for wifi use): name, home address, email address, IP address, family makeup, and travel companions. Although you may not give your specific income, Disney can make some broad generalizations based on resort choice, reservation types, and certain purchases (and I imagine there is a chance that DVC and Disney credit card members may have also given the company specific income information).

The question is how Disney plans to benefit by combining the INDIVIDUAL's information they've already handed over with their movements on the property using RFID.

The most obvious benefit seems to be selling that info to other companies. Similar info is bought and sold all the time, so Disney would be no different. (And Disney "selling" this info could be in the form of selling an attraction sponsorship. "If Company X builds this attraction, we'll give them the visitor data." You'd be amazed at how that is already in play at Test Track)

In most cases, that selling of info (and Disney's direct collection and ability to use it themselves) will lead to targeted advertising. Is that a good or bad thing? There's always the concern of email spam and junk mail (which can often be opted out, if a company has any PR sense). The other side of it is that the advertising individuals will see (web banner ads, Facebook, coupon offers, recommended products on websites, etc) will be tailored to their interests ("if I'm going to be exposed to ads anyway, might as well be for things I'm interested in")

By adding the RFID tracking component, Disney (and their partners) get a better sense of exactly how much you spend and what you spend your money at Disney on since every purchase can be tracked and analyzed ("Bill Jones from Vermont doesn't spend much for hotel rooms but likes fine wines").

But I'm struggling to see how else Disney or anyone else benefits by knowing where I am at any given moment on their property as an INDIVIDUAL. Where I think the tracking most benefits Disney is by monitoring all park guests as a group.

GROUP:

By combining the info visitors voluntarily give Disney (address/hometown, general income, etc) with their movements around property, I think Disney stands to gain a tremendous amount of info.

The questions it can answer are almost limitless. Where do the big spenders eat and shop? What products are of most interest in international visitors? Which resort are guests more likely to return to for a mid-afternoon swim? Do most visitors enter Adventureland from the hub or Caribbean Plaza, and do they stop at the merchandise carts there if they've already been to the Emporium?

Such info could potentially help Disney save money or spend it more wisely by allocating resources (like staffing or maintenance) differently. It could also lead to improved profitability with better product display placement (which is already a science in the retail industry, dating back to the people who decided it was best to put milk at the back of a grocery store). Will that mean more stores packed with the same generic merchandise or a different variety? It appears future guest traffic and spending patterns will give us the answer.

Disney could certainly use the RFID tracking to recruit sponsorships by showing the precise demographics that visit.

SELLING THE TECHNOLOGY:

Spirit's update seemed to suggest Disney was willing to sell the technology (which may be how they plan to recoup most of the $2 Billion). I'm trying to predict who those customers would be. Cruise ships and other large resorts seem the most obvious, since they would mirror Disney's business. But who else? Embedding RFID in a Walmart "customer appreciation" to show how different types of people move through the store?

As I mentioned earlier in the thread Walmart has been pushing RFID for almost 10 years now for their supply chain, they probably have as much if not more experience with the technology then Disney does. Also they have no need for RFID to track customer habits, they already do considerable data mining on people spending habits.
 

KevinYee

Well-Known Member
I'm new sure I understand the "forcing" part. Couldn't you put a bracelet into your pocket (where it can be wrapped up in foil) until you need it to purchase your lunch or open your hotel door?
 

Cosmic Commando

Well-Known Member
Lots of thoughts on how Disney would benefit from such data mining, both as it pertains to each individual guest and as part of a large mass of people moving around their property.

INDIVIDUAL:

Most visitors already "voluntarily" give Disney tons of personal information when they check in, buy tickets, or sign into their websites (like for wifi use): name, home address, email address, IP address, family makeup, and travel companions. Although you may not give your specific income, Disney can make some broad generalizations based on resort choice, reservation types, and certain purchases (and I imagine there is a chance that DVC and Disney credit card members may have also given the company specific income information).

The question is how Disney plans to benefit by combining the INDIVIDUAL's information they've already handed over with their movements on the property using RFID.

The most obvious benefit seems to be selling that info to other companies. Similar info is bought and sold all the time, so Disney would be no different. (And Disney "selling" this info could be in the form of selling an attraction sponsorship. "If Company X builds this attraction, we'll give them the visitor data." You'd be amazed at how that is already in play at Test Track)

In most cases, that selling of info (and Disney's direct collection and ability to use it themselves) will lead to targeted advertising. Is that a good or bad thing? There's always the concern of email spam and junk mail (which can often be opted out, if a company has any PR sense). The other side of it is that the advertising individuals will see (web banner ads, Facebook, coupon offers, recommended products on websites, etc) will be tailored to their interests ("if I'm going to be exposed to ads anyway, might as well be for things I'm interested in")

By adding the RFID tracking component, Disney (and their partners) get a better sense of exactly how much you spend and what you spend your money at Disney on since every purchase can be tracked and analyzed ("Bill Jones from Vermont doesn't spend much for hotel rooms but likes fine wines").

But I'm struggling to see how else Disney or anyone else benefits by knowing where I am at any given moment on their property as an INDIVIDUAL. Where I think the tracking most benefits Disney is by monitoring all park guests as a group.

GROUP:

By combining the info visitors voluntarily give Disney (address/hometown, general income, etc) with their movements around property, I think Disney stands to gain a tremendous amount of info.

The questions it can answer are almost limitless. Where do the big spenders eat and shop? What products are of most interest in international visitors? Which resort are guests more likely to return to for a mid-afternoon swim? Do most visitors enter Adventureland from the hub or Caribbean Plaza, and do they stop at the merchandise carts there if they've already been to the Emporium?

Such info could potentially help Disney save money or spend it more wisely by allocating resources (like staffing or maintenance) differently. It could also lead to improved profitability with better product display placement (which is already a science in the retail industry, dating back to the people who decided it was best to put milk at the back of a grocery store). Will that mean more stores packed with the same generic merchandise or a different variety? It appears future guest traffic and spending patterns will give us the answer.

Disney could certainly use the RFID tracking to recruit sponsorships by showing the precise demographics that visit.

SELLING THE TECHNOLOGY:

Spirit's update seemed to suggest Disney was willing to sell the technology (which may be how they plan to recoup most of the $2 Billion). I'm trying to predict who those customers would be. Cruise ships and other large resorts seem the most obvious, since they would mirror Disney's business. But who else? Embedding RFID in a Walmart "customer appreciation" to show how different types of people move through the store?
I think the internal predictions are spot on. How do guests behave after they do X? What do the big spenders have in common?

I just don't see Disney selling the info at this time. I know companies do it: eons ago when I signed up for a landline telephone, I got a person that didn't speak English very well. They wrote my name down as Spepien Johnson, which is only tangentially related to my real name. All of a sudden, tons of junk mail started showing up for Spepien Johnson even though I wasn't listed in the phone book. But Disney's privacy policy at this time forbids them from sharing your info with third parties unless you "elect" to share that info or in a couple of other limited circumstances. To have the bald-faced moneygrab kind of info sell-off, Disney would either need to change their policy (which we would know about) or, if you "elect" to share that info by buying a ticket or staying at a resort, there would likely be a lawsuit if there were no opt-out.
 

WDWFanDave

Well-Known Member
Just a quick note here, as I think I remember some questions about the battery life and/or GPS...(sorry if it's a duplicate of any info, but with so many recent replies, I haven't been able to keep up!). This seems to me like the technology that our turnpike system uses...we have a pass on our windshield that communicates via RFID with units at the toll booths. No real need for GPS, as the location of the receiving units are certainly noted, and the unit we have for our car is now in excess of five years old (maybe even like 8 or so), and it still works just fine.

Seems to me that all of the permits that we'd seen that we thought were obscure but possibly related to NextGen probably were, in fact, installation of these type of receiving units that are placed for tracking guest movement.

It's just so damned sad that they've spent so much money on something that could have real potential for improving the guest experience, and yet, will likely be used to suck every last freaking penny out of our wallets.

For instance, wouldn't it be great if it were used in conjunction with the bus system. I absolutely refused to use the buses on our most recent trip because they waste so much of my vacation time. But, used in a guest experience improving way...they'd actually know at a glance just how many folks from a particular resort are in a particular park as closing approaches, and they could then allocate/supply the appropriate assets to get everyone back to the resort and get the parks emptied.

However, that being said, I almost have to wonder now if they will instead use that information, along with the new bus loop being built, to offer expedited return service to the resort for a fee...kind of like FastPass+ for the buses...you can wait in this ridiculous line and we'll get you back to the bus when you've made it to the front of the line you're going to stand in for the next two hours, or for a $xx.xx per person fee/premium/whatever you want to call it, you can get on the bus over here with no/little wait, and get back to your resort right away. (Or, I can schedule this all in advance for a premium add-on to my all inclusive, not-really-free DDP vacation package, where I'll be absolutely exhausted from six months plus of planning.)

I'll say that originally I didn't see all the negative side of NextGen...but as we peel back the layers of the onion, it does bring more tears to the eyes...

Ok, guess that wasn't such a quick note :)
 

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