Spirited News and Observations and Opinions ...

[djlaosc]

Simple. Refuse to wear the band due to it ruining your suntan. Then tell City Hall for $100 a day (or over 2 billion!) they can flipping well sort it out.

That's what we were saying - it might be all right if you're there for a day or two but if you have to continuously wear this for two or three weeks, then you're going to end up with a band of untanned skin where the band has been!

 

[WDWFigment]

I think the quote a page back from Wall Street really rings true here. I'm more concerned about the financial implications of the $2b--and why Disney is looking more to squeeze blood out of a turnip than to grow some new turnips--than the privacy implications. I certainly don't like what corporations have done to reduce our expectations of privacy, but we've largely allowed it as a society, so that's just as much on us. I'm not saying I'm even remotely pleased with this data mining venture, but haven't we known that's what it was all along? I guess it's just a bit more "real" now that we've seen an external, presumably analyst written document on it that paints a fairly bleak picture. Haven't we suspected all along that it's a bleak and dubious investment?

As for the PR backlash...do you all really expect that? Look at how (almost) universally adored Google is. Google has engaged in a systematic data mining campaign solely for the purpose of delivering you more targeted online ads. YouTube, Google+, Gmail, etc... What do you all think is the real purpose of those offerings? Google certainly isn't doing it out of corporate benevolence.

Yet Google is viewed favorably--and even cool!--by the mainstream (and moreso by the tech savvy crowd that is more aware of its true motives) because of its presentation. Google has treaded carefully with how it presents itself, and that has worked well for Google. The company is viewed as an innovator, a maker of cool and useful things that make lives easier in the digital age...and not as a company with the primary mission of selling more ads.

Even Facebook, which has bungled privacy matters on more than 1 (or even more than a dozen) occasions, still is incredibly popular and used with reckless disregard by the general public.

Is it not possible that the potential PR nightmare Disney is facing could be dispensed with the same way Google has handled its potential concerns? Although a certain segment of the population hates Disney, and those who pore over every detail of the system (i.e. people like us) may hate NextGen, the general public may see this as Disney innovating and streamlining the theme park experience, making things "easier" for them. Few people in the general public are bound to care as much as us about the implications within the theme park (as in, how the money could have potentially been better spent), and I think Google and Facebook have shown us that there's a high likelihood that the general public will also shrug off the privacy concerns. Even using the blunder-happy Facebook as the barometer, it seems there's a high likelihood the public will raise a fuss for about 10 minutes, then forget about their complaints. We do have short attention spans and memories these days, after all!

 

[GoofGoof]

They could sell it to any number of people.
Like a retailer for example. Disney could say, "Here is info on the Smith family. Mother, father and two kids, a boy of 6 and a girl of 9. They buy lots of DVDs, like fast food, and drink Sprite. The kids seem to enjoy Disney characters and toys. The father is a golfer who enjoys a beer or two after a round. The mother drinks coffee, and enjoys high-end dining. They rented a car while traveling, and stayed in a deluxe resort. They have two small dogs who enjoy canned dog food."
And it could go on and on. Providing information to help other companies target the Smith family.

It certainly should be a point if interest, for sure.

I see your point.

Most of this data was already available anyway like resort info, golf reservations and even meals if you are on DDP. This is just a way to compile that data into one place. I don't see how tracking me through the park adds any value to the data. All of the valuable info would come from the cash registers.

 

[SirOinksALot]

Has it not been established on the forum that the vast majority of people won't be given wristbands? That's probably step #1 toward a rational discussion.

 

[TP2000]

It would seem that there is something different about NextGen that makes it more advanced than the current big box retail programs.

For that matter, why would Disney need to invest $2 billion to set this up, if a similar program has already been instituted in the big boxes around the world?

Or does Disney think their similar technology might be more marketable to other companies because Disney is associated with all-American wholesomeness?

I get it that lotso' people think "big corporations" are inherently bad, which is kind of a funny thing to think while living a decadent lifestyle in a free-market capitalist society, but let's just chalk it up to the current fashion.

So Disney tracks my every move on my 4 day visit this March. They already knew what hotel room I was in, and what Fastpasses I got, and everything I ate or bought not using cash, and they've known that stuff for decades. But assuming every inch of property is scanned by RFID readers this March, they'll also know how long I linger in the post-show at Test Track, or whether or not I stay for the Norway movie after Maelstrom, and if I stopped to watch the parade, or how long I browsed in the Emporium before I bought the stuff with my credit card that they would be able to track anyway.

So what??? And who would buy that kind of info from Disney that they didn't already have access to since the invention of the Diners Club Card in the 1960's?

Now, if there was some seedy strip club on Disney property and they were tracking me there and logging that I spent three nights there during my visit, and then sent me invites in the mail for a swingers club get-together that my wife could find out about, then there's a problem. Luckily, there's no house of ill-repute on Disney property and I certainly would never be caught dead in such a place!

For decades Disney has had access to date/time/location/dollar amount on every major purchase you make with them, which bed you are sleeping in at night, which entrée you chose at the California Grill, which rides you pull a Fastpass for and which rides you do not. Any company worth their balance sheet also knows and tracks this stuff about their customers, and has for decades.

I'm beginning to think it's the conspiracy theory around wearing an Evil Corporate WristbandTM that allows you to pay for junky souvenirs and pull Fastpasses and stick to a theme park touring itinerary, that's what most people object to. To buy into that though, you really have to pull your tinfoil hat very firmly down around your ears and ignore the rest of society's technological advancement of the last 20 years. And for the love of God, don't buy anything at Target!

 

[danlb_2000]

'74 asked me to drop this here for him, due to his inability to post certain things.

As envisioned and implemented by Disney, NextGen is not merely the application of existing technology to bring its parks and resorts...up to date from a technology standpoint, it is the most extreme and thorough application of mandatory, craftily cultivated and dynamically applied surveillance ever undertaken by a corporation in one, highly specific location.
Central to the engagement of the initiative is the tagging and tracking of every guest. Each visitor will be expressly and explicitly profiled through the mandatory use of GPS-enabled RFID technology. This is incorporated, specifically, in the bracelets Disney has received several patents for as well as room keys and passes (the last to address a still in dispute phase-in for passholders to include annuals and seasonals as well as day buy-ins). To reach the profit targets and overarching design goals set for this project, as well as export the technology and its fruit to other companies, Disney understood early on that there could be no opt-out for any guest. Application of an 'opt-out mode' would remove the control and thereby defeat the financial gains required of such a massive capital outlay defined publicly devoid of detail.
NextGen "tagging" is a requirement even for those individuals paying with cash and those visiting just for the day. Making it so has been presented in typical corporate fashion as being nothing but an enhancer of the customer or "guest" experience. Disney, as sold to the masses, will streamline and personalize your experience based on highly specific information about each member of your party. The information will be partly tendered under the guise of a voluntary "itinerary builder" to help the guest pre-plan nearly every aspect of a Disney Parks vacation. Names, birth dates, gender and real and virtual addresses (email, Twitter, Facebook, and the like) will be gathered.

From there, the collection of information will grow in a dynamic and organic manner...to be first rolled-out at Walt Disney World beginning in early 2013, once you arrive your personalized NextGen bracelet or room key or pass will gather or mine every data point consistent with 24 hour surveillance. (Note: handheld devices, smartphone and tablets, are a supplemental feature that is, by design, a distraction from the actual intent of NextGen that feeds on society's familiarity with this ubiquitous technology.) Cash will remain an accepted form of payment; however, for resorts guests, cash will only be allowed to settle accounts prior to departure much like as a credit card is required prior to boarding and for all purchases on cruise ships.

Unlike most currently utilized RFID products, Disney's tags or profilers will not require the tapping or waving of the guests' bracelet or other embedded tagger for the vast data-mining the passive element of NextGen introduces. No push, tap or swipe is required as readers now blanket Walt Disney World to extract every possible piece of information or data from the guest in their GPS-enabled device. Any concerns over the right of Disney to acquire, compile and export for their profit and the profit of corporate partners aside, grave concerns over guest safety and the actual legality of this project have been raised.
Enjoy!

I have to question the use of the term GPS in this. There is nothing to indicate that these bracelets will have GPS capability. We have seen the FCC application and there is no mention of GPS in there. Also, a small, self contained device like this would not have enough power from it's internal battery to power a GPS radio for any length of time. Now with enough readers in the park they could effectively achieve the same thing but that still doesn't make it GPS.

 

[ParentsOf4]

What makes it huge? What does that expose that you don't want people to know? The reality is sharing your phone number and email is far more impactful to you and your life than Disney monitoring where you visited. And that kind of info 'leak' is happening all over so Disney isn't really exposing something new. Disney's value will not be in your tracking, but your demographic data and spending - stuff you can't really get much info from mortgages, utilities, USPS, etc

If you can't see the distinction between companies having personal information about me versus companies tracking me personally like a sex offender on parole, then there are no words I could write that would ever make you understand the difference.

 

[MickeyPeace]

Guilty as charged.

We have 3 DVC trips booked for 2013 with exactly 2 days planned inside WDW theme parks. At this point, we've got better ways to spend our vacation money and it's not in WDW theme parks. I know several other DVC members who are doing the same.

The $399 PAP no doubt is WDW's attempt to try to get people like us back in the parks. Maybe it would have worked if it was $300 off the regular AP. For now, we're sticking with our $199 Universal AP. We had a great time at Universal in July & November and are looking forward to the next visit. Too bad Universal is not adding anything worth a visit in 2013 or 2014 but at least the "New" Fantasyland will have a new kiddie coaster by then.

I think DVC members are scaring TDO. These are WDW regulars who should be visiting the theme parks in droves. They fact that so many are spending their vacation dollars elsewhere has to be gnawing away at TDO. Despite its many problems, I tell people to go to WDW and enjoy themselves, just let TDO know. Companies listen to paying customers, not former customers. But, as a whole, it looks like DVC members are voting with their wallet.

But you are still giving TDO money every year to stay in their timeshare. Its not really like they aren't getting your money anymore. So even if park attendance goes down, they are still raking it in.

 

[Tigger1988]

The only device I own which could track my movements is my cell phone, I have an unregistered pay-as-you-go cell phone which takes care of that problem. If I roll up to WDW with a multi day pass from my off site hotel and am told that I have to leave my wrist band on for my entire two weeks in Orlando they can shove the wrist band where the sun doesn't shine (which seems to be Lancashire at the moment). Online shopping is profiling, nothing more. Tracking your movements is a step too far.

Are you posting this from a library or do you own your own computer/laptop? Your IP address can be used to find your location.

 

[GoofGoof]

I have to question the use of the term GPS in this. There is nothing to indicate that these bracelets will have GPS capability. We have seen the FCC application and there is no mention of GPS in there. Also, a small, self contained device like this would not have enough power from it's internal battery to power a GPS radio for any length of time. Now with enough readers in the park they could effectively achieve the same thing but that still doesn't make it GPS.

Anyone with an iPhone knows how fast GPS enabled apps suck your battery dry. Will we have to "charge" the wristbands? Will the RFID technology work if the band is in my pocket? I imagine a lot of guests will just keep them in their pockets or purses until they need them rather than wear them around all day.

 

[danlb_2000]

Is this sentence key? "To reach the profit targets and overarching design goals set for this project, as well as export the technology and its fruit to other companies, Disney understood early on that there could be no opt-out for any guest."

"Export the technology...to other companies"

That sounds a lot like Disney's getting out of the entertainment business and into the surveillance-for-hire business.

Would that justify the investment? If they could sell this technology to Walmart, for instance? I honestly don't know how much of the tech is proprietary, but it stands to reason they see a profit to be made by encouraging other companies to follow their lead.

I have not heard anything about next-gen that would lead me to believe that it is using any kind of proprietary technology that other companies would need to buy from Disney. No piece of this system seems to be anything special, the tricky part is implementing it on the scale Disney is going and integrating everything together. Walmart was actually an early adopter of RFID, they started pushing it almost 10 years ago in their supply chain, but had a very hard time getting enough suppliers to buy into it.

 

[GoofGoof]

But you are still giving TDO money every year to stay in their timeshare. Its not really like they aren't getting your money anymore. So even if park attendance goes down, they are still raking it in.

Technically, he already paid TDO their money up front. There is very little profit for WDW from DVC members just staying in DVC resorts beyond the initial upfront payment. The annual dues just cover costs. Recurring profit from DVC members only occurs if the owners return and eat at restaurants, buy merchandise or buy park tickets.

 

[ParentsOf4]

But you are still giving TDO money every year to stay in their timeshare. Its not really like they aren't getting your money anymore. So even if park attendance goes down, they are still raking it in.

I'm not sure if you understand how a timeshare works but any money I "give" to Disney is to pay for upkeep and maintenance at cost. Since I bought a resale, Disney isn't making a single penny of profit from me personally from my DVC membership.

However, Disney doesn't just want resort money from its guests. It wants ticket money, food money, merchandise money. etc. By me spending my money elsewhere, not at Disney, Disney is losing all that potential revenue. When other DVC members do the same, Disney is losing their potential revenue too.

I hope that makes it a little clearer.

 

[the.dreamfinder]

Is it not possible that the potential PR nightmare Disney is facing could be dispensed with the same way Google has handled its potential concerns? Although a certain segment of the population hates Disney, and those who pore over every detail of the system (i.e. people like us) may hate NextGen, the general public may see this as Disney innovating and streamlining the theme park experience, making things "easier" for them. Few people in the general public are bound to care as much as us about the implications within the theme park (as in, how the money could have potentially been better spent), and I think Google and Facebook have shown us that there's a high likelihood that the general public will also shrug off the privacy concerns. Even using the blunder-happy Facebook as the barometer, it seems there's a high likelihood the public will raise a fuss for about 10 minutes, then forget about their complaints. We do have short attention spans and memories these days, after all!

You made some good points and quite a few that I agree with. I think the issue for Disney isn't simply that this could be a PR nightmare because Big Mickey is watching your families every move at the world, it has the potential to change how people view Disney.
You mention facebook, do people actually "trust" facebook? Disney has a special relationship with a large chunk of the American population. The films and the parks hold a special place in the hearts of many. There is an established trust between Disney and public, be it fans like us or normal folk who are fond of Mickey, Buzz and Woody. This whole data mining initiative, as @ParentsOf4 pointed out, treats guests as inventory to sell to the highest bidder while the parks, in some cases literally, are falling apart. The way I see it, NextGen could be Disney's Watergate moment, where the trust that they had built up with the public over generations is sharply eroded in one fell swoop. I worry that NextGen will have indirect negative effects on other areas of Disney like Animation and Film for example because this could cause massive dammage to the BRAND.

Fortunately for us theme park fans, there will be plenty of stuff to do up the interstate!

 

[WDWFigment]

You made some good points and quite a few that I agree with. I think the issue for Disney isn't simply that this could be a PR nightmare because Big Mickey is watching your families every move at the world, it has the potential to change how people view Disney.
You mention facebook, do people actually "trust" facebook? Disney has a special relationship with a large chunk of the American population. The films and the parks hold a special place in the hearts of many. There is an established trust between Disney and public, be it fans like us or normal folk who are fond of Mickey, Buzz and Woody. This whole data mining initiative, as @ParentsOf4 pointed out, treats guests as inventory to sell to the highest bidder while the parks, in some cases literally, are falling apart. The way I see it, NextGen could be Disney's Watergate moment, where the trust that they had built up with the public over generations is sharply eroded in one fell swoop. I worry that NextGen will have indirect negative effects on other areas of Disney like Animation and Film for example because this could cause massive dammage to the BRAND.

Fortunately for us theme park fans, there will be plenty of stuff to do up the interstate!

Well, it seems this is the $2b question!

Good points...obviously I don't have an actual answer. I don't think the public trusts Facebook. I think the public is so addicted and often mindless about it that they don't care. It's sort of like Coke or coke. Those who abuse the substances know the risks, but do so anyway...

Assuming the public has trust for companies (I actually think the concept of corporate "trust" has eroded over the past couple of decades, and what we have now is more like companies that are "well-esteemed" with the public; semantics, I know...), I agree with you that there's some risk in this, and how Disney presents will be incredibly important. The public does have some "trust" for Disney (so this is more analogous to Google, which I think the public also "trusts"), and this could damage that.

If Disney handles this more in a Google-like manner than a Facebook-like manner, I think the risks of tarnishing the brand are low. Disney also benefits from other companies tearing down our expectations of privacy in similar regards for the last several years, so we've already been conditioned to expect this sort of thing (sort of like how Disney conditioned us to expect quality!).

Overall, I think this is much ado about something, but I think the thoughts that this will be a PR nightmare for Disney are probably wrong. It would have been a PR nightmare in the actual Watergate era, but today...I doubt it.

 

[Jane Doe]

Are you posting this from a library or do you own your own computer/laptop? Your IP address can be used to find your location.

On an iPad which I'm not legally bound to carry round at all times and which I can switch off if the mood takes me.

 

[the.dreamfinder]

Assuming the public has trust for companies (I actually think the concept of corporate "trust" has eroded over the past couple of decades, and what we have now is more like companies that are "well-esteemed" with the public; semantics, I know...), I agree with you that there's some risk in this, and how Disney presents will be incredibly important. The public does have some "trust" for Disney (so this is more analogous to Google, which I think the public also "trusts"), and this could damage that.

If Disney handles this more in a Google-like manner than a Facebook-like manner, I think the risks of tarnishing the brand are low. Disney also benefits from other companies tearing down our expectations of privacy in similar regards for the last several years, so we've already been conditioned to expect this sort of thing (sort of like how Disney conditioned us to expect quality!).

I do agree that Disney does benefit from other companies that have eroded our privacy already. I still think the issue remains that Disney is connected to childhood memories far more than Google. Sure people make "Disney/George Lucas raped my childhood" jokes, but that personal connection may be underestimated.
It appears that Disney is looking, and may have to, sell data to third parties to justify the costs. To your credit, Google keeps all that data in house and never sells it to anyone (More for business reasons than users privacy). This 2BN+ (Imagine all the awesome stuff we could've gotten instead!!) boondoggle will NOT pay for itself like RSR or Diagon Alley will. They will have no other choice.

 

[Darth Sidious]

I think the quote a page back from Wall Street really rings true here. I'm more concerned about the financial implications of the $2b--and why Disney is looking more to squeeze blood out of a turnip than to grow some new turnips--than the privacy implications. I certainly don't like what corporations have done to reduce our expectations of privacy, but we've largely allowed it as a society, so that's just as much on us. I'm not saying I'm even remotely pleased with this data mining venture, but haven't we known that's what it was all along? I guess it's just a bit more "real" now that we've seen an external, presumably analyst written document on it that paints a fairly bleak picture. Haven't we suspected all along that it's a bleak and dubious investment?

As for the PR backlash...do you all really expect that? Look at how (almost) universally adored Google is. Google has engaged in a systematic data mining campaign solely for the purpose of delivering you more targeted online ads. YouTube, Google+, Gmail, etc... What do you all think is the real purpose of those offerings? Google certainly isn't doing it out of corporate benevolence.

Yet Google is viewed favorably--and even cool!--by the mainstream (and moreso by the tech savvy crowd that is more aware of its true motives) because of its presentation. Google has treaded carefully with how it presents itself, and that has worked well for Google. The company is viewed as an innovator, a maker of cool and useful things that make lives easier in the digital age...and not as a company with the primary mission of selling more ads.

Even Facebook, which has bungled privacy matters on more than 1 (or even more than a dozen) occasions, still is incredibly popular and used with reckless disregard by the general public.

Is it not possible that the potential PR nightmare Disney is facing could be dispensed with the same way Google has handled its potential concerns? Although a certain segment of the population hates Disney, and those who pore over every detail of the system (i.e. people like us) may hate NextGen, the general public may see this as Disney innovating and streamlining the theme park experience, making things "easier" for them. Few people in the general public are bound to care as much as us about the implications within the theme park (as in, how the money could have potentially been better spent), and I think Google and Facebook have shown us that there's a high likelihood that the general public will also shrug off the privacy concerns. Even using the blunder-happy Facebook as the barometer, it seems there's a high likelihood the public will raise a fuss for about 10 minutes, then forget about their complaints. We do have short attention spans and memories these days, after all!

I respectfully disagree as there is a stark difference in treating your guest like they are on house arrest and targeting ads based on search history. I don't wear google around my wrist and let them tag along. When I search google or use their product they reserve the right to utilize that. Disney does too but they are taking it a bit far it seems.

 

[Condorman]

Folks, if you use Apple/Microsoft/Google, and 99% of everyone posting on this thread uses one or more of the big three, your lives have already been data-mined to a greater degree than anything Disney will ever do.

If you truly believe that buying an Angus cheeseburger from Pecos Bill or a plush Nemo from MouseGears or going on Splash Mountain at 10:00am on a Tuesday morning is going to net an additional e-mail from Walmart or snail-mail offering from All-State, get over yourself. You're not that important in life, no, not even to Disney.

 

[wm49rs]

Neither are you, regardless of how much Disney may enjoy your prattle....