Spirited News and Observations and Opinions ...

[BlueSkyDriveBy]

Michel is from the Netherlands. Tony found him over there working as a designer at Efteling park, and brought him to WDI. I believe Tony sees/saw him as someone to sort of pass the torch to.
(EDIT: just saw BSDB's post...he beat me to it...)

And what an effn brilliant move on Baxter's part, too. I just hope Disney doesn't screw things up and lose him to another design house. But I wouldn't be surprised if that happens.

If I had to bet...I'd put money on the "at all" part.

Ditto.

 

[flynnibus]

Yes, DCA 2.0 shows what WDI can still do. But it's more an anomoly. Look at what WDI has produced at WDW over the last 15 years. ... Look at things like DSP across from Tony's masterpiece.

I think carsland is an anomaly because so much of it's strength is the original concept from the movie. All their effort was bringing that to life.. but unlike a book.. they already had the majority of the palette already laid out for them. Sure they had to figure out how to fix 'cheats' made in the movie, or fill in all those things that are out of frame in the movie.. but it's kind of like extrapolating the lines. It's great execution - but the heart was all Pixar's original concepts.

And that's what most of WDI's more recent projects reflect.. a lack of heart and emotion. Crazy attention to detail.. find all kinds of ways to stuff as much in as you can.. and the fans lap it up.. but at the end.. it's a beautifully decorated empty box. The details have become the story instead of supporting one.

 

[WDW1974]

I saw that video last weekend in the Blue Sky Cellar and LOVED it! I'm not sure that Baxter was speaking about the project itself though, just Fantasyland in general as we've known it since 1955. Heck, that video also interviewed a "Financial Analyst" from WDI who talks about his young wife and daughter enjoying Fantasyland. If you can get a Financial Analyst to tear up for the camera, truly anything is possible at Disneyland!

But in the press tours they gave for Fantasy Faire last week, Baxter wasn't to be seen or mentioned. They had a younger guy in a brown WDI hardhat with a European accent leading the media tour and talking about his work on the project, Michel something was his name. I imagine that Baxter sat in on meetings for Fantasy Faire, since he's the design VP for the park and honestly what else was he gonna do with his time? But it's not like Baxter has been presented as the creative lead on this project, or spoken about it publicly, or even been photographed or seen on the construction site.

The fact Baxter wasn't there should only be read into his employment status. Nothing more or less. Disney doesn't want him anywhere near a camera or mic right now. I don't blame them. This project has been Tony's from the start as the creative lead. Everyone else was under him. As to how much work he did versus advising and approving, I really don't know.

He was a key designer of the New Fantasyland there and I'm sure his biggest concern was making sure this new feature fit in.

@WDW1974 has been hinting that Baxter was being forced out for months now, and I believed him as he's a very trustworthy source who has a good head on his shoulders. I also believe him that there's a big dollop of corporate politics and intrigue behind this "retirement" for Baxter.

How do you work for people that can't stand you, have no respect for what you've meant to the company and attempt to undermine you at every opportunity, all the while knowing that is the direction the entire company has gone? No respect for the past. No vision for the future.

Do you ever wonder why Bob Iger sells his shares in Disney just as soon as they're vested versus someone like Michael Eisner who still owns a tremendous amount of Disney stock?

But I'm also trying to figure out how damaging this all is exactly, since there have been several huge examples of brilliant Imagineering showing up in American parks in the last few years that hadn't been touched by Baxter at any stage in their development. Cars Land is the giant elephant in the room there, but Buena Vista Street is another one, and even New Fantasyland at WDW looks very nice even if the single new attraction there behind the rock façade isn't a home run. (Lisa Girolami was the creative lead on that one, for both coasts.)

Does the Disney world as we know it really come to an end without Tony Baxter on the payroll, sitting in his office in Anaheim twiddling his thumbs and helping Kim Irvine pick out draperies and wallpaper for the latest small rehab at Disneyland?

I'm just as sad to see Baxter go as the next fan, but I need convincing and/or an explanation why this is really a super big deal that spells doom for the creative future of the American parks.

I'll put it as simply as possible: Tony was like the finger in the dike ... just watch what's going to happen next.

 

[the.dreamfinder]

I think carsland is an anomaly because so much of it's strength is the original concept from the movie. All their effort was bringing that to life.. but unlike a book.. they already had the majority of the palette already laid out for them. Sure they had to figure out how to fix 'cheats' made in the movie, or fill in all those things that are out of frame in the movie.. but it's kind of like extrapolating the lines. It's great execution - but the heart was all Pixar's original concepts.

You have Roger Gould and his Theme Park team at Pixar as well as Tom Morris and Bob Weis to thank for that.

 

[WDW1974]

I thought Girolami was only in charge of the DCA Version and Chris Beatty was lead on the WDW version.

I'd have to check, but I believe that is correct.

 

[the.dreamfinder]

Do you ever wonder why Bob Iger sells his shares in Disney just as soon as they're vested versus someone like Michael Eisner who still owns a tremendous amount of Disney stock?

Still 1.7 percent? Serious props. I would love if Eisner came on over for a MAGICal chat!

 

[lazyboy97o]

And that's what most of WDI's more recent projects reflect.. a lack of heart and emotion. Crazy attention to detail.. find all kinds of ways to stuff as much in as you can.. and the fans lap it up.. but at the end.. it's a beautifully decorated empty box. The details have become the story instead of supporting one.

This is one of my big gripes with the fan community, an inability to see and appreciate the difference between ornament and detail. These recent project are full of ornamentation, but lacking in detail. This is also my problem with so many of the references made today throughout the parks. Seeing Imaginer Joe Schmoe's name a door is not about filling out the world with people, but making sure people see Joe Schmoe's name because "We at Imagineering are 'fans' of Joe Schmoe too."

 

[Rasvar]

How do you work for people that can't stand you, have no respect for what you've meant to the company and attempt to undermine you at every opportunity, all the while knowing that is the direction the entire company has gone? No respect for the past. No vision for the future.

Been there, done that and gotten the insubordination write-ups to prove it. Worst situation to be in.

 

[Captain Neo]

The fact Baxter wasn't there should only be read into his employment status. Nothing more or less. Disney doesn't want him anywhere near a camera or mic right now. I don't blame them. This project has been Tony's from the start as the creative lead. Everyone else was under him. As to how much work he did versus advising and approving, I really don't know.

He was a key designer of the New Fantasyland there and I'm sure his biggest concern was making sure this new feature fit in.



How do you work for people that can't stand you, have no respect for what you've meant to the company and attempt to undermine you at every opportunity, all the while knowing that is the direction the entire company has gone? No respect for the past. No vision for the future.

Do you ever wonder why Bob Iger sells his shares in Disney just as soon as they're vested versus someone like Michael Eisner who still owns a tremendous amount of Disney stock?



I'll put it as simply as possible: Tony was like the finger in the dike ... just watch what's going to happen next.

This is a load of BS Spirit. Tony Baxter was kicked to the curb under the Eisner regime. Eisner and his cronies threw the whole Tomorrowland'98 Fiasco on him and put him in a position where he would not be doing anything of substance while giving promotions to idiots like Fitzgerald and his ilk. When Bob Iger got to the company the writing was already on the wall for Tony. You can't spin it as if the culture changed under Iger and thats what drove Baxter out.

 

[WDW1974]

While I'm still unsure about Princess Fantasy Faire, I agree with you when you say it's not the end of the world. I was thinking about DCA 2.0, too (mainly BVS and Cars Land) and thinking how wonderful it is, yet Baxter had nothing to do with either. As far as WDW goes, didn't he spend most of his time in California/Disneyland anyway?

This reminds me of when Walt Disney died and everyone freaked out (I wasn't there, of course). No, Disneyland isn't the same without Walt Disney strolling through or driving the train or talking to the guests, but it's come a very long way since his passing. What would we have done if Baxter died? It would have been the same way. There will be new talent in Imagineering. Does it totally suck Baxter has no say in anything? YES. We all have to move on, though, and welcome new talent. Hopefully no one gets held back from creative ideas.

Not that simple, unfortunately.

WDI has lost touch with its past and very few people remain who were around when the greats were still there ... a handful ... Kim Irvine ... and Tom Morris come to mind ... to some degree Joe Rohde and Tom Fitzgerald.

When you lose touch (and respect) for what made you what you were, you are in trouble. No, it isn't like there is no talent left. But that talent hasn't been tutored and mentored by the second gen of greats. And if you think Bruce Vaughn wants Tony to have any impact on the younger Imagineers who respect him, then you're mistaken.

WDI has bled talent for 15 years.

Take a look at DLP and TDS, two masterpieces of Imagineering. ... Now, look and see how many key creatives from those projects are still at WDI. The talent there now is not nearly the caliber of the talent that WDI politics have pushed out the door.

 

[PhotoDave219]

Like i said..... This is all about corporate cultures and mismanagement. It keeps getting worse.

 

[the.dreamfinder]

@BlueSkyDriveBy I recall that you had posted in the comments section on a Re-Imagineering blog post on the departure of Tim Delaney and had noted that you thought Bob Weis would make a good head of WDI. Would you like to bring up those thoughts into our current conversation since the topic is awfully similar?

 

[WDW1974]

Which canary built Cars Land?

I appreciate the backstory, and it's obvious Baxter has been marginalized for years and years. He's got to be pulling in a hefty six figure salary too, which doesn't help his cause. But WDI has had several home runs in the last few years in American parks without Baxter "riding herd" on the projects (Gawd I hate that Jim Hill-ism, but I just had to use it). It might have even been salt in the wound for Baxter to see Cars Land rising majestically and triumphantly a few hundred yards south of his Anaheim office the last few years, and then be widely acclaimed as the best Disney theme park offering since Indiana Jones Adventure in '95.

But Cars Land is proof that WDI still has got it, with Buena Vista Street an extra shot of whipped cream on top just to prove a point. So pardon me if I'm not panicking over the forced retirement of Tony Baxter, who hasn't worked directly on a major project in years and years. It's sad to see him go, but I can't figure out why we should run for the lifeboats.

Blue Sky 'splained things quite well, TP2000.

You sorta remind me a bit of the folks in the SoCal hills with their pricey homes built in places that they never should have been watching the smoke from a nearby canyon bellow up, but thinking 'we're fine, that's nowhere near here ... we don't need to get ready to run' only to watch them in their jammies grabbing the family pooch and rushing down the hill in their Escalade or other high-end SUV as the flames start lapping their cul de sac.

There is smoke here because there's fire. It isn't so much watching Tony leave under such bad terms and when he has so much left to offer, but rather what it all means.

 

[WDW1974]

If I had to bet...I'd put money on the "at all" part.

I wonder if Bruce and Co told Tony that 'it would be best if you stayed away from DL for a while' ... or they might have been afraid to.

 

[WDW1974]

This is one of my big gripes with the fan community, an inability to see and appreciate the difference between ornament and detail. These recent project are full of ornamentation, but lacking in detail. This is also my problem with so many of the references made today throughout the parks. Seeing Imaginer Joe Schmoe's name a door is not about filling out the world with people, but making sure people see Joe Schmoe's name because "We at Imagineering are 'fans' of Joe Schmoe too."

The problem is simply that WDI can now pass off decoration (like say the AoA motel at WDW) as theming (like say the WL at WDW). They are VERY, VERY different concepts.

 

[Californian Elitist]

Not that simple, unfortunately.

WDI has lost touch with its past and very few people remain who were around when the greats were still there ... a handful ... Kim Irvine ... and Tom Morris come to mind ... to some degree Joe Rohde and Tom Fitzgerald.

When you lose touch (and respect) for what made you what you were, you are in trouble. No, it isn't like there is no talent left. But that talent hasn't been tutored and mentored by the second gen of greats. And if you think Bruce Vaughn wants Tony to have any impact on the younger Imagineers who respect him, then you're mistaken.

WDI has bled talent for 15 years.

Take a look at DLP and TDS, two masterpieces of Imagineering. ... Now, look and see how many key creatives from those projects are still at WDI. The talent there now is not nearly the caliber of the talent that WDI politics have pushed out the door.

I understand. I'm waiting and seeing. Baxter's leave is unfortunate, but I don't know what the future looks like for Disneyland. If things begin to crumble, thankfully I don't smoke pixie dust and I will happily take my money somewhere else. That won't be a problem for me. I've gone years without going to Disneyland, I can do it again. Right now I'm fine with the way things are and I'm trying to stay positive. If Imagineering can get it together and come up with some great things, awesome. If that's going to be a problem... Well, you know the rest.

 

[WDW1974]

This is a load of BS Spirit. Tony Baxter was kicked to the curb under the Eisner regime. Eisner and his cronies threw the whole Tomorrowland'98 Fiasco on him and put him in a position where he would not be doing anything of substance while giving promotions to idiots like Fitzgerald and his ilk. When Bob Iger got to the company the writing was already on the wall for Tony. You can't spin it as if the culture changed under Iger and thats what drove Baxter out.

Hey, Neo. Why don't you take a chill pill and tell me what is BS exactly? You REALLY don't want to challenge me on this subject more than any.

I never said anything about Eisner and Co blaming Tony for T-land '98 when it was largely an Eisner funding fiasco.

But Bob could have done whatever he chose when he took over to change the culture at WDI and instead he continued the toxic politics and policies of the past. He didn't ... and he allowed Tony to be further marginalized. Tony hoped for change under Bob and got even more of the same.

I never said the culture changed under Iger. It is the same culture that existed in Eisner's later years and it simply continued under Bob.

Bob could have ensured that Tony stayed with the company. Tom Staggs could have. They opted not to.

Just more of the same.

 

[WDW1974]

Thanks to all who have participated in this thread. Trolls aside, it has been a fun and fascinating discussion.

But to make things easier on @wdwmagic and @The Mom, I'm going to bow out here ... I will be starting another thread a little later (tonight or tomorrow depending on life) discussing Disney's NGE and even how Tony Baxter's ouster may have been a result.

Hope to see y'all there.

 

[PhotoDave219]

I'll put it as simply as possible: Tony was like the finger in the dike ... just watch what's going to happen next.

I hear that costs extra. :lookaroun

 

[Figments Friend]

Thanks to all who have participated in this thread. Trolls aside, it has been a fun and fascinating discussion.

But to make things easier on @wdwmagic and @The Mom, I'm going to bow out here ... I will be starting another thread a little later (tonight or tomorrow depending on life) discussing Disney's NGE and even how Tony Baxter's ouster may have been a result.

Hope to see y'all there.

Thank you Spirit. This is one of the best threads here in several months.
Informative, serious disscussion about topics all of us serious Park fans can get engrossed in. Bravo.

Looking forward to the new threads.