Spirited News and Observations and Opinions ...

[TP2000]

I hope you are right because I am pretty close to admitting defeat and stop caring. The ramifiications of Tony's departure paired with Next Gen might just be the last straw. Sorry to be pessimistic but I really feel that things have gotten that bad.

I understand. It bums me out too to think Tony Baxter won't be around much, if at all.

But take a walk through Cars Land or Buena Vista Street, and ride those attractions, and you'll cheer up instantly.

 

[MattM]

But if you're freaked out about ADRs and FP+ (not the majority of guests?) then you are a hardcore Disney addict and you probably will come even though you can't get the FP online. Doubt it will be that hard for people born after 1930.

Do you have any idea how many moms plan these trips years in advance?

 

[Genie of the Lamp]

Well, Lisa took full responsibility for the ride at DCA when it opened in 2011. And since the ride at WDW is an exact clone of the DCA version, she should be responsible for it there too. From the Disney Parks Blog... http://disneyparks.disney.go.com/blog/2011/06/under-the-sea-with-imagineer-lisa-girolami/

The exterior and queue for the ride is very different at WDW, and that's what Chris Beatty must have been responsible for in WDW? Once you step onto that rubber loading belt though, it's a clone from DCA that Lisa Girolami was in charge of.

The Mermaid exterior and queue at WDW is very, very nicely done. And if Chris Beatty did all that, then bravo to him. And that queue is another example of current Imagineering for an American park that turned out great without Tony Baxter involved. Who from WDI is doing the Ratatouille ride for Paris that looks amazing? And who is doing Mystic Manor for Hong Kong? Who did DisneySea and the jaw-dropping visuals and fabulous E Tickets that exist in that park? It wasn't Tony Baxter.

Great creative minds apparently exist at WDI beyond a "celebrity" executive like Mr. Baxter.

I don't think the majority on here are denying the fact that some talent still exists in WDI. I think more people here are concerned about the long term mindset for these upcoming Imagineers/Imagineer Executives and the direction Bruce Vaughen is going to take them as it seems down the road eventually Burbank will man the WDI ship and have total control on what they do. Baxter was very focal in his last few months about how Imagineering needed fixed. He didn't mean the Imagineers themselves, he meant how Imagineering does their business. With him out the door now, it seems to become more apparent that WDI really doesn't want any naysayers expressing their true feelings and moreso they want those that should just "tag along" with whatever person has the most executive power position feels needs to be executed. Yes, Imagineering isn't a one man show, but could this one former employee man been right about the state of WDI all along with others brushing it off to the side. Could Mr. Tony Baxter have saved Imagineering before it's too late? Time will tell.

 

[Californian Elitist]

Thank you. Perhaps that's a Dutch name? His accent sounds similar to Lawrence Welk's wonderful inflection, especially when he says "The Happiest Place On Earth", and that made me smile. I like this Michel guy, and he looks all of about 32 years old. I'd card him at a liquor store.

Here's a link to his interview for the local media on a construction site tour of Disneyland's new Fantasy Faire opening next month, for those interested in this OT subject.

Yep, he's Dutch.

Although I'm not as excited as I was when Cars Land and BVS opened, I'm looking forward to PFF's opening. I'm hoping for some AP sneak peeks.

 

[Pixiedustmaker]

I basically lived 63 years in New York (15) and New England (the rest). I am not arrogant to anyone that doesn't show me disrespect first. If we do come across a little angry sometimes, imagine what it's like to live in Winter for 18 months out of the year! Oops! Exaggeration there...it's 11 months of winter and 1 month of tough sledding.

I should apologize for what I said about New Englanders—and I do as the majority seem to be normal, but its only the really angry folks you seem to remember most. It is true that the weather can be horrendous, to say nothing of parking issues and transportation times, I certainly couldn't bear to live in the northeast for an extended amount of time, I'm sure that colors my opinion. Though I'd be happy to vacation in Rockaway during the summer, real sad what happened there post Sandy as I used to live in the Irish Riviera for a small amount of time.

I used to commute past the houses that were destroyed everyday.

 

[lazyboy97o]

But take a walk through Cars Land or Buena Vista Street, and ride those attractions, and you'll cheer up instantly.

I think they're beautiful but still far more shallow than the best of Disney's work. It's flashy, but I think lacking in truly inspired substance.

 

[flynnibus]

I think they're beautiful but still far more shallow than the best of Disney's work. It's flashy, but I think lacking in truly inspired substance.

carsland.. no
BVS.. its just as impressive as mainstreet.. it just lacks the norman rockwell charm. LA history just has that flare associated with it vs escaping to a quieter, simpler time that the 1900s that mainstreet represents.

 

[BlueSkyDriveBy]

I've heard him speak at fan events a few times over the last 15 years, and he lives near me in Anaheim Hills and I see him tool around the neighborhood with his Indy license plate.

Just out of curiosity, what flavor of auto are the plates on now? Last time I saw them, years ago, they were on Tony's Lotus "James Bond eat your heart out" Esprit.

That said, does WDI really need destroying?

If Disney is going to continue to haphazardly run this business unit, then I believe a thorough cleansing is required, at least at the very top. Vaughn is nothing but a hatchet man who was supposed to initiate major changes in the company when he was promoted many years ago. So far, not much has happened other than encouraging/forcing a bunch of second generation Imagineers to leave. The toxins are still flowing everywhere, with no end in sight.

Heck, even the new Fantasy Faire at Disneyland that opens next month and appears to be gorgeously designed and thought out didn't have the Baxter presence on it.

Not true. That was the last project Tony worked on.

Not that I'm not sad to see Tony go, or be pushed out as it were, but with a crop of great (and younger) Imagineers like Kathy Mangum, Kevin Rafferty, etc. still actively on the payroll, does it really require destroying WDI?

Actually, both Kathy and Kevin are second generation and have been with the company for eons, especially Kevin. He was hired by WED in 1978, around the same time as Tom Fitzgerald, who also started out as a show writer. He's also going to be persona non grata in a few years, once he gets well past 60.

 

[lazyboy97o]

carsland.. no
BVS.. its just as impressive as mainstreet.. it just lacks the norman rockwell charm. LA history just has that flare associated with it vs escaping to a quieter, simpler time that the 1900s that mainstreet represents.

Buena Vista Street would be far stronger if it was not weighed down by the insipid attempts to connect it to Disney history and was more purely about Los Angeles and its story.

 

[flynnibus]

Buena Vista Street would be far stronger if it was not weighed down by the insipid attempts to connect it to Disney history and was more purely about Los Angeles and its story.

Well.. the blatent Disney injections didn't hurt the railroad did it? Or how about the inside baseball on all the mainstreet windows.. or the original overt sponsorships?

Disney has never done well with PURE historical - its always an idealist version woven with either Disney or personal tiebacks. I don't see BVS much worse than that.

 

[BlueSkyDriveBy]

But in the press tours they gave for Fantasy Faire last week, Baxter wasn't to be seen or mentioned. They had a younger guy in a brown WDI hardhat with a European accent leading the media tour and talking about his work on the project, Michel something was his name.

As napeterson pointed out, that is Michel Den Dulk, the same Michel who Tony referred to in his letter. Disney "stole" him away from Europa Park a few years ago.

I imagine that Baxter sat in on meetings for Fantasy Faire, since he's the design VP for the park and honestly what else was he gonna do with his time? But it's not like Baxter has been presented as the creative lead on this project, or spoken about it publicly, or even been photographed or seen on the construction site.

OK, time to do some critical thinking.

What exactly did Tony Baxter do this past week? And why did he do it?

There's your answer, TP. And you didn't have to do a lot of digging to figure it out.

@WDW1974 has been hinting that Baxter was being forced out for months now, and I believed him as he's a very trustworthy source who has a good head on his shoulders. I also believe him that there's a big dollop of corporate politics and intrigue behind this "retirement" for Baxter.

This is Disney. The longest running corporate soap opera in the LA basin.

Does the Disney world as we know it really come to an end without Tony Baxter on the payroll, sitting in his office in Anaheim twiddling his thumbs and helping Kim Irvine pick out draperies and wallpaper for the latest small rehab at Disneyland?

Again, look carefully at what you just wrote.

The fact that a senior Imagineer like Tony would be engaged in activities such as these instead of helping to create the next latest and greatest attractions for the Disney theme parks speaks to the corporate mindset of WDI and P&R as a whole.

If you're going to stay competitive these days in the theme park universe, you must be running on all cylinders. Shoving talent like Tony off to the side doesn't seem to fit this requirement, especially in light of the massive investment in NextGEN TragicBand technology.

As far as I'm concerned, it's not a matter of Tony quitting because he was marginalized.

It's the reason behind why he quit in the first place.

Disney should be mentoring their younger Imagineers to become the best designers possible. They're not.

Disney should be taking control of their creative process by keeping as much of the design work in-house as possible instead of farming it outside. They're not.

And Disney should be concerned about losing their legacy and market share to other theme park operators such as Universal and Sea World who are now leading the charge on innovation and immersion with their new rides and environments. They probably are concerned, but the response seems tepid if not inappropriate at best.

I'm just as sad to see Baxter go as the next fan, but I need convincing and/or an explanation why this is really a super big deal that spells doom for the creative future of the American parks.

I see it as the proverbial canary in the coal mine for the future of the Disney theme parks:

The canary stopped singing many years ago, but still managed to flit around in its little cage. But the canary began to fall off its perch with some regularity shortly after the millenium celebration, remaining on the bottom of its cage longer and longer with each tipsy fall. Yesterday, however, the canary fell off its perch and has yet to recover. The company tried giving it a NextGEN respirator to help clear its lungs, but it kept meekly tweeting, "Give me some privacy!" over and over. I suspect it will remain on the bottom of the cage, clinging to life, until the coal mine is completely cleared out of all the toxic elements that's enveloped it for the past two decades.

 

[lazyboy97o]

Well.. the blatent Disney injections didn't hurt the railroad did it? Or how about the inside baseball on all the mainstreet windows.. or the original overt sponsorships?

Disney has never done well with PURE historical - its always an idealist version woven with either Disney or personal tiebacks. I don't see BVS much worse than that.

The tiebacks and self-references have reached a level of self-consciousness that makes them something different than they were in the past. What was once a means of fleshing out a place is now a deliberate choice which will then be sold.

 

[TP2000]

The canary stopped singing many years ago, but still managed to flit around in its little cage. But the canary began to fall off its perch with some regularity shortly after the millenium celebration, remaining on the bottom of its cage longer and longer with each tipsy fall. Yesterday, however, the canary fell off its perch and has yet to recover. The company tried giving it a NextGEN respirator to help clear its lungs, but it kept meekly tweeting, "Give me some privacy!" over and over. I suspect it will remain on the bottom of the cage, clinging to life, until the coal mine is completely cleared out of all the toxic elements that's enveloped it for the past two decades.

Which canary built Cars Land?

I appreciate the backstory, and it's obvious Baxter has been marginalized for years and years. He's got to be pulling in a hefty six figure salary too, which doesn't help his cause. But WDI has had several home runs in the last few years in American parks without Baxter "riding herd" on the projects (Gawd I hate that Jim Hill-ism, but I just had to use it). It might have even been salt in the wound for Baxter to see Cars Land rising majestically and triumphantly a few hundred yards south of his Anaheim office the last few years, and then be widely acclaimed as the best Disney theme park offering since Indiana Jones Adventure in '95.

But Cars Land is proof that WDI still has got it, with Buena Vista Street an extra shot of whipped cream on top just to prove a point. So pardon me if I'm not panicking over the forced retirement of Tony Baxter, who hasn't worked directly on a major project in years and years. It's sad to see him go, but I can't figure out why we should run for the lifeboats.

 

[lazyboy97o]

Which canary built Cars Land?

I appreciate the backstory, and it's obvious Baxter has been marginalized for years and years. He's got to be pulling in a hefty six figure salary too, which doesn't help his cause. But WDI has had several home runs in the last few years in American parks without Baxter "riding herd" on the projects (Gawd I hate that Jim Hill-ism, but I just had to use it). It might have even been salt in the wound for Baxter to see Cars Land rising majestically and triumphantly a few hundred yards south of his Anaheim office the last few years, and then be widely acclaimed as the best Disney theme park offering since Indiana Jones Adventure in '95.

But Cars Land is proof that WDI still has got it, with Buena Vista Street an extra shot of whipped cream on top just to prove a point. So pardon me if I'm not panicking over the forced retirement of Tony Baxter, who hasn't worked directly on a major project in years and years. It's sad to see him go, but I can't figure out why we should run for the lifeboats.

For the same reason Iger's love of acquisition is not a long term strategy. The toxic atmosphere at Walt Disney Imagineering may allow some good projects to get through, but it won't be an environment where such ideas flourish.

 

[Lee]

Thank you. Perhaps that's a Dutch name? His accent sounds similar to Lawrence Welk's wonderful inflection, especially when he says "The Happiest Place On Earth", and that made me smile. I like this Michel guy, and he looks all of about 32 years old. I'd card him at a liquor store.

Michel is from the Netherlands. Tony found him over there working as a designer at Efteling park, and brought him to WDI. I believe Tony sees/saw him as someone to sort of pass the torch to.
(EDIT: just saw BSDB's post...he beat me to it...)

I understand. It bums me out too to think Tony Baxter won't be around much, if at all.

If I had to bet...I'd put money on the "at all" part.

 

[WDW1974]

Not really sure what good even that would do...
He's just a brand to them now, not a leader.

Exactly ... how many guests AND cast don't even realize Walt Disney was a REAL man? He's been dead longer than most people here have been alive.

And today's media giant that bear's his name has almost nothing in common with what he started.

Also, just a note, but I'll be taking a few of the subjects here and starting a new thread(s) since @wdwmagic has said this is becoming unwieldy and, frankly, wading through posts on what parts of the country have the nicest/nastiest people to get back to real discussion is sorta a waste of time for many of us.

 

[BlueSkyDriveBy]

Which canary built Cars Land?

The one from the Bay Area. But I think John accidentally sat on him during the Food and Wine Festival.

I appreciate the backstory, and it's obvious Baxter has been marginalized for years and years. He's got to be pulling in a hefty six figure salary too, which doesn't help his cause. But WDI has had several home runs in the last few years in American parks without Baxter "riding herd" on the projects (Gawd I hate that Jim Hill-ism, but I just had to use it). It might have even been salt in the wound for Baxter to see Cars Land rising majestically and triumphantly a few hundred yards south of his Anaheim office the last few years, and then be widely acclaimed as the best Disney theme park offering since Indiana Jones Adventure in '95.

I don't doubt that for a second. I would feel depressed seeing that much capital expenditure going into the new land in the second gate that my employer prevented me from working on.

But you need to understand that Carsland is an anomaly for the American parks. It's possible that WDW will get their version of Carsland, but it won't be as large nor as detailed, from what I've heard. What DCA got was a taste of Tokyo, thanks largely in part to John Lasseter.

DCA needed a huge makeover to give it profitability, and Carsland was chosen because of the massive amount of capital Disney spent in acquiring Pixar. Disney knew that the southwestern setting of Radiator Springs was a natural fit for DCA, something that the fans of SoCal car culture, which John grew up with, could sink their teeth into.

But part of the Lasseter sign off on Pixar's acquisition involved making Carsland a major showpiece for the Disneyland Resort. Disney didn't cheapen out because Lasseter backed them into a corner. They were basically forced to spend far more capital for one small area than they've done in decades, mostly because of him.

It's disingenuous to hold up Carsland as a current example of what Imagineering will supposedly do in the future, with regard to detailed immersion. Take a look at the new TLM attraction. E-Ticket my aunt . There's too much empty space where there's nothing to look at. It's loaded with cheap plastic fish that bring back painful memories of Chuck E. Cheese. This attraction could have been sooooo much better! But Disney didn't want to spend the capital, even in Florida, where the queue outside outshines the ride inside.

Simply put, Disney doesn't want to spend the big bucks on future additions like they did for Carsland. Sure, they're capable of creating these rides and environments. But what good is having the talent in your stable, if you never let the talent out into the sunshine to run free?

Tony walking out the door simply solidifies the lack of commitment Disney now has for making their parks and their Imagineers the best in the world. Tony should have been given the Hench Treatment. Letting him go was really, really shortsighted and just plain stupid.

 

[TP2000]

The one from the Bay Area. But I think John accidentally sat on him during the Food and Wine Festival.

Ha! Poor little bird.

 

[the.dreamfinder]

Tony walking out the door simply solidifies the lack of commitment Disney now has for making their parks and their Imagineers the best in the world. Tony should have been given the Hench Treatment. Letting him go was really, really shortsighted and just plain stupid.

What if Eric Larson, Ollie Johnston and Frank Thomas were told to drop dead when they proposed their training program and later The Illusion of Life.

No Glen Keane, Andreas Deja, Brad Bird, Tim Burton, Ron and John, Skipper John, Joe Ranft to name a few. No Toy Story, No Beauty and the Beast, No Little Mermaid, No Aladdin, No Nightmare Before Christmas, No Lion King.

That's what were dealing with here. WDI has just signed its death certificate.

 

[WDW1974]

First off, I have always thought very highly of Tony Baxter. His big E Tickets from the 1980's and 90's are some of my all-time favorites (although Rocket Rods was just painfully dumb, but we can blame Pressler for that one.) I've heard him speak at fan events a few times over the last 15 years, and he lives near me in Anaheim Hills and I see him tool around the neighborhood with his Indy license plate. The man is not only a creative genius and Imagineering legend, he's also a very nice guy.

Yes, he is. And, unlike many of the folks who work at WDI and fancy themselves geniuses, he is quite down to earth with people. In my mind, he was the last real torchbearer for Walt Disney and his Nine Old Men and all the greats that passed through 1401. He was the soul ... the Spirit ... of what Imagineering was (note past tense) and the fact he'll have no influence on the future whatsoever while princesses like Bruce will is a sickening thought.

That said, does WDI really need destroying? Tony Baxter had nothing to do with Cars Land or Buena Vista Street. Tony even references Cars Land in his farewell letter as an example of great Imagineering. It would seem to me that Cars Land, Buena Vista Street, and the other successful cosmetic rehabs that created DCA 2.0 for 2012 are proof that WDI can still create and design top-notch theme park installations ready for decades of success without Tony Baxter at the helm.

Yes, I think it does. It has lost far more talent than it has brought in over the past 15 years. There's a veritable All-Star team of ex-WDI out there either working for other companies or running their own design studios or retired.

Tony had nothing to do with anything in DCA 1.0 or 2.0 because he was marginalized by the toxic politicians that have run Glendale both under Marty and since he left. DCA 1.0 never would have happened with Tony in charge ... and the only reason he referenced Cars Land as something done right was ... well, actually two reasons:

1.) He attacked the entire NGE as the opposite of what Disney should be doing in his opening (I know some people read right over that and may not understand what a talented writer is saying, but rest assured everyone in Glendale got the point.) and Cars Land is the exact opposite of what is being done at WDW and;
2.) Tom Morris had a key role on that team and Tom is the only one of the key Euro Disney designers still employed by WDI (sadly, probably not for long).

Yes, DCA 2.0 shows what WDI can still do. But it's more an anomoly. Look at what WDI has produced at WDW over the last 15 years. ... Look at things like DSP across from Tony's masterpiece.

Heck, even the new Fantasy Faire at Disneyland that opens next month and appears to be gorgeously designed and thought out didn't have the Baxter presence on it. The recent videos released to the press all had other Imagineers fronting for it.

The Fantasy Faire project was Tony's. That will be the man's legacy ... someone who started on WDW and worked on seminal projects from BTMRR to EPCOT to being lead on DLP ... his final project was turning a bandstand into a meet-greet-and-grope.

The other Imagineers were given the face-time because everyone knew Tony was going to be heading out.
I can't stress enough here how much Bruce and management hated Tony and how the feeling was mutual ... and how it was largely because he got what Disney was supposed to be about and they didn't.This was not an amicable parting.

Whether Tony 'quit' or not, he was treated like a $32,000 a year office worker when they're canned.

He doesn't even have a company email or phone any longer. ... and unless things change dramatically, I'd be shocked if he ever contributes anything to Disney. ...Oh, so don't expect him at D23 ... and don't expect him to get that window on MSUSA until all the Tony haters are gone.

Also, note that both Iger and Staggs could have prevented this. They were aware. They chose to let things unfold the way they did.

Not that I'm not sad to see Tony go, or be pushed out as it were, but with a crop of great (and younger) Imagineers like Kathy Mangum, Kevin Rafferty, etc. still actively on the payroll, does it really require destroying WDI?

I like Kathy (although I think she was a Tony hater too), but I'd hardly call her or Kevin great. ... Most of the greats are long gone. What you have left are the ones who think New Fantasyland is great work ... and those who play to ignorant fanbois by passing off decoration as theming.