Spirited News and Observations and Opinions ...

[WDW1974]

That would never happen at WDW, what takes priority is Hourly Ride Counts. I have seen entire show scenes down and they continue to run the ride, but if a people counter doesn't work or the opsheet doesn't update that is a big problem. They will put in extra people to just manually count the riders with a hand clicker because that is the most important thing.

Oh yeah. Hence the hack job done on CBJ (have I mentioned that yet?) ... Good old Phil 'the counts are too damn high' Holmes. You gotta love him ... or not.

 

[WDW1974]

Of course don't you remember the WDC code of conduct and order of operational readiness and importance - empty the customers pockets, spend as little as possible, efficiency, courtesy, safety, show. The antiquated notion that show comes before efficiency is long gone. I recently ran across the Oriental Land Company page that goes into the operational philosophy that made WDW successful http://www.olc.co.jp/en/csr/safety/scse.html. It's funny that on that page they say that this is what the entire WDC uses as a guideline when in reality it is more the exception than the rule except with Tokyo.

Can you imagine if they attempted to use Disney standards for the OLC parks for their own parks?

It would be like the end of the World ... just not as the Mayans predicted ... you'd have Goofy running around without his head, Cindy turning tricks by the Big Top, CMs setting fire to Splash Mountain and Phil Holmes dancing in a tutu.

 

[WDW1974]

I totally buy into @WDW1974's belief that it will get worse before it gets better. The biggest question for me, is who within the company that has true corporate power gets it? I assume John Lasseter, when he's visited Orlando, isn't blind to the problems in Florida, but besides his plate being spread thin, it seems that his true impact on the company tends to be a tad bit fanboi inflated many times. I can't image many on the Board of Directors having ever stepped into a park, akin to the TDO execs.

John can only do so much and, right now, he's spread way too thin.

His portfolio goes something like this:
1.) Pixar;
2.) WDFA;
3.) WDI-Consultant (largely on Pixar projects);
4.) DLR;
5.) anything and everything else;

He isn't blind to the problems in Florida and he isn't powerless. If you ride Nemo, which is also worlds better than Mermaid even if old pal @EPCOT Explorer would choke on that, you can see one of his improvements if you look up and to the left in the jellyfish scene.

Disney also tries to shield him from reality. A friend, also a CM, tried to get a message to him after paying to attend his winery's event at Citricos during Food and Wine and his Disney escort would have no part. He wound up passing a note to Nancy (John's wife) as that is what it has come to.

As to the BoD, many often are in the parks, but you'd never recognize them. They all were reported (Steve Jobs included) to have done the WIld Africa Trek at DAK in the summer of 2011, yet not a single piece of photographic evidence has come to light to tell whether this was true or a fabrication.

 

[WDW1974]

I haven't been to any of the recent events, but I am hearing that a lot of them (not just F&W, but evening fireworks too) are getting out of hand and frightening people. It's a shame that Disney is letting crowd control slide to the point people are afraid. The only time "FEAR" should enter the equation is on Tower of Terror.

THIS is the problem.

It isn't guests or even drunks, per se. It's Disney simply not staffing enough crowd control and security folks, period.

And DLR is much better at crowd control in a much tighter environment. Why WDW struggles with it, I can only chalk up to $$$.

 

[WDW1974]

Not that confusing, really.

At MK you can get an alcoholic beverage with your meal in one restaurant.
At F&W you really can't take twenty paces without encountering some sort of bar, be it a large stand or small cart.

One makes a little sense...the other is taking it to an extreme.

(I'm not a drinker, so I don't have a stake in the whole thing...but the quantities of booze being sold at F&W is just getting silly.)

You seem to forget how MAGICal I felt the parks were on 10/1 largely due to drinking large quantities of alcoholic beverages. ... I believe it even had me singing on PoC and had GG riding Space Mountain for the first time in 8-9 years!

I always say the MK always looks better after 2-3-4 drinks.

 

[WDW1974]

i...truthfully don't know what this means, but i implore everyone to not let '74's wonderful thread drift into an alcohol in the resort debate. PLEASE!

back on topic, i've never understood the shift to TDO's strategy to court the once-in-a-lifetimers, yet keep building and selling DVC like it's going out of style. aren't those two things diametrically opposed? if you're breeding new DVC members, doesn't it make sense to keep the parks well-maintained, fresh, and state-of-the-art so that guests want to keep returning?

i still say DVC members hold the key to getting this thing back on the right track.

Except for one thing: DVCers haven't banded together and told Disney 'we ain't happy, we were snookered and giving us cheap APs so we don't go see Spidey or Shamu and free D23 memberships ain't gonna do it, you're going to have to spend billions in your parks and not on tracking technology'' ... when y'all DVCers get your act together, let me know.

 

[WDW1974]

Sorry, but I'm going to politely disagree with you, Spirit.

I strongly believe that behind closed doors in Burbank, the Powers That Be Mouse have quietly conceded to themselves, that they've run out of time to avoid the proverbial cliff with regard to WDW's continued death grip on the Orlando market.

But don't misunderstand what I mean by that statement. "Quietly conceding" doesn't mean that they'll stop developing new things for the parks. Projects will continue to be cranked out, but in the typical slower-than-molasses fashion. I was referring to embracing the light-a-fire-under-our-butts mentality that needs to take hold at Disney corporate, in order to permanently stem the financial bleeding that's certainly heading their way.

Instead, Disney has decided to trim their budgets and reduce costs by alienating their most loyal, ardent customer base, and focus only on short-term gains. Certainly a recipe for disaster for the long haul. But Iger is a short termer now. He'll be gone by the time the true cost of such austerity measures are felt. So he obviously doesn't care, as long as his compensation and golden parachute gives him enough millions to run for political office.

Disney had a narrow window of opportunity to create their Potter Swatter and keep those Orlando vacation dollars on property where they've traditionally been spent. But now with Potter 2.0 breaking ground and SW's Antarctica opening next year -- while a huge chunk of the FLE is still under construction -- that window is almost fully closed, waiting to be nailed shut. Disney let slip their one opportunity to catch up and gain back their top dog status. They fumbled on the one yard line while their quarterback got knocked out with a concussion and the coach got caught mouthing the F word on national television.That's how badly I perceive their screw up to be.

It's inconceivable to me that Disney let Uni take this much of their market share away from them so easily. They knew the enormous potential Potter would have with theme park visitors. And the fact that they're not lighting that proverbial fire under their butts to rectify it as quickly as possible speaks volumes. That's what I meant by "conceding" the Orlando market. They had their shot to regain lost ground but didn't take it, all because of the stupid, stupid arrogance that permeates the Mouse.

On that part we agree, Spirit.

The massive Disney corporate ego that once was their blessing has now become their curse.

Then, we agree. I sorta misunderstood something along the lines. But you are quite right. Disney will keep doing things at a snail's pace, while UNI cranks one new thing after another out (some like Despicable ME will be much better than others like UNI's Cinematic Spectacular -- will they ever be able to do nighttime show?)

Disney will still be touting New Fantasyland next summer when Transformers opens and UNI formally announces Potter 2.0, Simpsons mini-land (seen the plans and I like what I see), what likely will be two new JP attractions and an expansion/new kid's area into where the old Hard Rock Cafe stood.

Maybe by then ground will have broken on Avatar, but I have a feeling that's never happening.

 

[Longhairbear]

Except for one thing: DVCers haven't banded together and told Disney 'we ain't happy, we were snookered and giving us cheap APs so we don't go see Spidey or Shamu and free D23 memberships ain't gonna do it, you're going to have to spend billions in your parks and not on tracking technology'' ... when y'all DVCers get your act together, let me know.

I've done my part. I recently got the usual form letter reply via email from DVC after writing to say how much I love them, and then offered my true feelings. We wouldn't be back to WDW unless there was something new and different from what DL already has, and therefore we'd be going to DL from now on, and so they need to build more DVC villas for us to stay at in CA. Otherwise when there is no vacancies at the hotels, or villas I'll stay at HoJo's.

 

[PhotoDave219]

THIS is the problem.

It isn't guests or even drunks, per se. It's Disney simply not staffing enough crowd control and security folks, period.

And DLR is much better at crowd control in a much tighter environment. Why WDW struggles with it, I can only chalk up to $$$.

I see it as more of a lack of training. Crowd control of a large environment - Lets use the University of Georgia's Sanford Stadium as an Example - 90,000 people on gameday. There's a multi-layer, giant cohesive plan to manage & protect that crowd as well as its entrance & exiting the area. Works pretty well, aside from having 90,000 drunk people.

Lets apply that to F&W and the dessert parties. You have inexperienced people with no concept of crowd control leading a group of 50-100+ people from point A to point B with a flashlight. Then they man the stairs, telling the daily paying guest that they may not view the fireworks from that spot. The guest gets indignent (not the best attitude but hey, seems to be the general entitled attitude of the average Disney guest, so , I'm generalizing because you people reinforce the stereotypes) and guests are directed elsewhere. Nowhere specific, just not here.

Lets take a farther step back. Try getting through the chokepoint at Mexico at 8pm. Try getting up or down MSUSA 1/2 hour before parade. Try getting near the hub between parade and Wishes. All of these are monumental because 20,000 people (or more) want to be on MSUSA for the parade & wishes and all you have to direct them are a bunch of college kids with a flashlight with no experience whatsoever on managing crowds, letalone common sense.

I've seen Reedy Creek EMS try to get through those crowds with a stretcher and its ugly because once again, the average Disney guest (see stereotype above) gets indignent because they're being inconvenienced... nevermind that someones life may be in danger in this case. But I've seen it and I've seen it first hand and honestly, if I'm RCES I want OCSO with me to get through those crowds.

You really want to improve guest traffic? Restrict what comes in. You want to bring a rolling cooler to feed 16 people in the park? Hell no. You want to bring in a stroller the size of a Prius? Hell no. Segway? You're kidding. Giant tripod to put in the middle of main street? Pfft, not with this attendance. You want to bring in a turbocharged ECV ("....I feel so much shame, all I can do is try to make myself feel a little better by flying to Disnelyland on the weekend.....") and you better have a doctors note. Large strollers and ECVs are a problem. You want to bring an ECV in, no problem as long as you have your paperwork in line from your doctor.

You simply cannot have crowds of 20-30 thousand people in such a small area without effective, trained crowd control. Considering the "flat" MK attendance is 47,000/day (source=TEA), its going to get worse. Of course, nothing is going to change until someone gets badly hurt in a very public way.

(Oh and in defense of the stereotype above was the nice gentleman who wanted to start a fistfight in the line for Les Miserables earlier today. Society itself seems to be reinforcing that stereotype one on its own.)

 

[PhotoDave219]

Gotta ask: Where's the beef??? In the little cloned plasticated c-ticket with the queue that spanks the attraction and effects that aren't working consistently less than 2 months in? Is it in the glorified story time thing with Belle where --oops-- we're also getting reports that things aren't working right? Oh, I get it. Must be the restaurant that only the most dedicated of fanbois-n-gurlz even have a prayer of visiting because they are the ones who will book their reservations at 6:00 am 6 months out and/or stand in line for lunch starting at park opening. Meanwhile, the rest of the MK & WDW suffers the plague of indifference from its keepers who would love nothing more than to continue to bask in their self-made illusion of substance. Some folks see past it, I suppose.

I only got into Be Our Guest because of the Tables in Wonderland event night, where Tables members had first crack at ressies for that evening. The food was really good (its not Yachtsman or Citricos good) and it had a very high school cafeteria feel to it. For a restaurant where youre dropping about $75 a person, it needs to be quieter and have a dress code, IMO.

 

[PhotoDave219]

See, this is where it get confusing. There have been post after post of advocates of alcohol being allowed in the park. How it is old fashioned to feel that an adult can actually have a good time without being liquored up. What foolishness for us to think that total sobriety is a good thing in a family oriented place. I mean really an adult would be responsible enough to not make a fool of themselves in front of families and factor in the cost and there will be no drunks in the parks. Will there? Apparently not! Besides if everyone is drunk enough they won't notice that things are not quite as good as the once were. If they do complain, well, there just a bunch of drunks, who cares what they think.

That was the argument for having alcohol in MK and it appears that management was listening. We haven't heard of any real problems yet, but the novelty is young and we will see what happens. So if you are able to put alcohol in the parks you don't need a place like P.I. The voices of the public have been heard.

How many times have we seen the question..."Is there a place in the park where my (fill in the blank) can get a beer. He/she really likes his/her beer and cannot get through a whole day without one" There was one man that felt he could combine family fun with social responsibility and still make money. Sadly, he is dead and long live the modern life.

Maybe if we had a gated place where the adult, alcoholic environment could be contained..... Hmmmm..... almost like an Island.

 

[sweetpee_1993]

I always say the MK always looks better after 2-3-4 drinks.

Good Lord, man! I think you're onto something! Best touring tip for our upcoming WDW day. And we can sing it ala Dory's "Just Keep Swimming"....Just keep drinking....which will make it so much easier to remember!

 

[marni1971]

Crowd control.... I've seen guests and friends nearly knocked over when Fantasmic! Opened in DHS. You know... Line up down Sunset and be ready to run down the gutter... After which the real push n shove starts. As well as the examples Dave gave above, remember the hub after Wishes and the MKs 40th? CMs unofficially officially abandoned it and any attempt at crowd control. It was a zoo. It was ugly. Guests on the lawns and flower beds. Pathways gridlocked. Liberty bridge just not moving in either direction. And the torch wavers retreated, seeing their managers hadn't planned for it and had no way of regaining control. Like a bad fire it was left to burn itself out.

Jump to Disneyland. Pre Fantasmic show #2. An army of torch wavers hold guests in Frontierland. Benches block short cuts. They divide walkways into one way areas. No silly tape on the floor. Slowly and surely they guide thousands of guests to the viewing area. Once there another army keeps walkways clear and moving. Like one CM every 20ft. Not one CM per walkway.

Yet by design the powers that be allow World Showcase to be blocked by carts, by new fencing that Intrudes into the Mexico promenade, by more and more Food and Wine shacks that also limit show viewing areas, by stroller parking against the lagoon railings.

Chalk and cheese.

 

[sweetpee_1993]

I only got into Be Our Guest because of the Tables in Wonderland event night, where Tables members had first crack at ressies for that evening. The food was really good (its not Yachtsman or Citricos good) and it had a very high school cafeteria feel to it. For a restaurant where youre dropping about $75 a person, it needs to be quieter and have a dress code, IMO.

Oh dear. I've not been to Citricos but the Yachtsman wasn't anything to write home about both times we ate there in Sept of 2011. The 2nd meal was as the manager's guests and still no real "wow" to speak of. Oh! See there! (In reference to another thread/conversation) Disney gave me something for free but didn't buy my opinion of what I was given! See?! Woohoo! Boy, do I feel better! LOL!

 

[sweetpee_1993]

Yes, and you don't even have to pay. Lucky you!!! BTW, how was Christmas for you and the family?

I know! Right?! Free show! Not much free going on nowadays so you take the little gifts life brings and savor them. Christmas was great. We all managed to find "the spirit" in the 11th hour and the day turned out every bit as memorable as years past. Oh and we managed to giggle along with our beloved Ralphie & all his insights no less than 5 times which always makes the day more festive.

I kid about many things ... fanboi hookups (not all of them) ... Disney crumbling (the whole place isn't, just large pieces), killing @Lee and running away with DD (OK, we've thought about it, but he's worth more alive ... barely), but I would NEVER kid about nog. Nog my style! (see what I did? ... yeah. not my best. You didn't just have the call I had. A friend needed a hug and all I gave was more scary stuff to keep him up all night!)

You're so punny! It's the late hour, huh? I'll just offer up that there's Nes-crappe and there's coffee just as there's sorta-kinda-egg-nog and there's the good stuff. Go for quality leaded varieties and you can't go wrong. Oh the Christmas cheer the nog can bring!

More bad news to render a friend in need of a hug sleepless? Well, you're not helping me find my zzz's with that morsel. Just say it wasn't Disney nightmares. Please????

BTW, when you gonna get on with dropping more bombshells on your captive audience here???

I'm feeling very jealous. I am enjoying @ParentsOf4 myself, but I just feel I should be the most loved here (at least among the women and fanboi demos ... the old dudes can find love at the company Christmas parties!)

LOL! No need for all that jealousy stuff. You'll always have a special place & all...we won't talk about where that place is exactly...but it's special. Promise!

 

[alphac2005]

Disney also tries to shield him from reality. A friend, also a CM, tried to get a message to him after paying to attend his winery's event at Citricos during Food and Wine and his Disney escort would have no part. He wound up passing a note to Nancy (John's wife) as that is what it has come to.

You need not say anymore. When handlers are there to shield any and everything, then we know reality is attempted to be masked for those who are being handled. Geez.

 

[alphac2005]

I see it as more of a lack of training. Crowd control of a large environment - Lets use the University of Georgia's Sanford Stadium as an Example - 90,000 people on gameday. There's a multi-layer, giant cohesive plan to manage & protect that crowd as well as its entrance & exiting the area. Works pretty well, aside from having 90,000 drunk people.

Lets apply that to F&W and the dessert parties. You have inexperienced people with no concept of crowd control leading a group of 50-100+ people from point A to point B with a flashlight. Then they man the stairs, telling the daily paying guest that they may not view the fireworks from that spot. The guest gets indignent (not the best attitude but hey, seems to be the general entitled attitude of the average Disney guest, so , I'm generalizing because you people reinforce the stereotypes) and guests are directed elsewhere. Nowhere specific, just not here.

Lets take a farther step back. Try getting through the chokepoint at Mexico at 8pm. Try getting up or down MSUSA 1/2 hour before parade. Try getting near the hub between parade and Wishes. All of these are monumental clusters because 20,000 people (or more) want to be on MSUSA for the parade & wishes and all you have to direct them are a bunch of college kids with a flashlight with no experience whatsoever on managing crowds, letalone common sense.

I've seen Reedy Creek EMS try to get through those crowds with a stretcher and its ugly because once again, the average Disney guest (see stereotype above) gets indignent because they're being inconvenienced... nevermind that someones life may be in danger in this case. But I've seen it and I've seen it first hand and honestly, if I'm RCES I want OCSO with me to get through those crowds.

You really want to improve guest traffic? Restrict what comes in. You want to bring a rolling cooler to feed 16 people in the park? Hell no. You want to bring in a stroller the size of a Prius? Hell no. Segway? You're kidding. Giant tripod to put in the middle of main street? Pfft, not with this attendance. You want to bring in a turbocharged ECV ("....I feel so much shame, all I can do is try to make myself feel a little better by flying to Disnelyland on the weekend.....") and you better have a doctors note. Large strollers and ECVs are a problem. You want to bring an ECV in, no problem as long as you have your paperwork in line from your doctor.

You simply cannot have crowds of 20-30 thousand people in such a small area without effective, trained crowd control. Considering the "flat" MK attendance is 47,000/day (source=TEA), its going to get worse. Of course, nothing is going to change until someone gets badly hurt in a very public way.

(Oh and in defense of the stereotype above was the nice gentleman who wanted to start a fistfight in the line for Les Miserables earlier today. Society itself seems to be reinforcing that stereotype one on its own.)

Post of the week here, for sure. You're so dead-on. Every single time at the Magic Kingdom, my wife and I always say that they act as though they've never done this before, even though they do parade traffic flow nearly each and every night and have done so for most nights of 40 years. It's chaotic and downright dangerous. There's nothing like a bunch of obnoxious people nearly trampling your small children because they have no manners nor do they have any respect.

ECVs... My dad has two debilitating diseases and has a custom electric wheelchair, but chooses to only use it for long distances. He hates having to use it, but he has no choice due to his medical condition. All the meanwhile, you're constantly watching out for people running you over in the ECVs all because they are the "Wall-E" types that are too lazy to walk. And strollers, yup. How about not taking your running stroller to the park? Or do what my kids did when they were little, walk. They liked that. I have a two and a half year old that since about 16 months could care less about the stroller. We try to get him in it during vacation to have him relax and not get exhausted and then cranky from walking.... but he generally chooses to walk, and yes, it's a slim stroller, not a small tank sized one.

As for your Les Miserables experience noted above, it's like our trip to Target yesterday. These people are not in line, they have their cart facing horizontally by the end cap between two registers (yup, not in what most people consider a line formation) and are audibly complaining to each other about buying something and trying to decide whether they buy it or not. I pull our cart in line and they flip out.... Then the guy says that well, they weren't actually in the line, so we can go. Well isn't that nice? All the while they looked all ticked that I was going into line where, um, they weren't standing and they were doing us a favor. Sometimes I wonder why we even bother going out anymore. Welcome to our ed off America. Ugh, it stinks.

 

[Longhairbear]

In light of that we seem to agree that WDW needs more attractions, and upkeep of older attractions I want to address something that seems to be missing from the very top of The Disney company. Mind you, this is my opinion from how I vacation using my DVC membership.
Before we were members of DVC we took annual trips to WDW, and monthly trips to DLR. After we became DVC members we took twice a year trips to WDW, and sometimes weekly day trips to DLR. All this was during the downturn at DLR, and the seemingly upturn at WDW. From one of the water parks we could see the Tree Of Life in the yet to open DAK.
I am more than aware of how hated DVC is to the general online Disney fan base. However misguided, their feelings are well based. It seems Disney is more interested in building more DVC than keeping the parks updated, and all are correct. Except that DVC is an entirely different division than TDO, WDI, and the janitorial staff at WDW, but. DVC falls under the entire Disney umbrella, and that's where things are falling apart, in my opinion.
I am not exceptionally well educated, nor am I privy to insider info. I am however a fan, and a customer.
What seems to be, to me, the biggest over site at Burbank is the total misunderstanding that the DLR needs more DVC units in, or near DLR. The last place they need them is at WDW for the time being, except for one reason. That reason is, for us, staying in a new DVC resort was a driving force for us to go back to FLA every year. We've realized that we didn't go for new attractions, that was icing on the cake at the time. We went to stay in the different themed DVC villas.
We saw the Yeti when it worked. We went back year after year waiting for Test Track to finally open, and all the while having a new experience by staying at a DVC resort we hadn't been to. It just happened to work out that way. Mission Space, new booths at F&W, and staying at BWV within walking distance kept us happy.
On the west coast we can almost never book a DVC villa at the Grand Californian, because there are only 50 villas of any given size, and on late notice they tend to be full. We did score a villa during testing of WOC, and got a room at DLH for the opening of WOC. We got a room at PP for the opening of Carsland. Nothing was available at the DVC at the GC. We've had to book rooms at HoJo's, and Candy Cane Inn while we had plenty of points to spend on property if there was availability. I had to book 7 months out to get a studio for my husband's birthday for 2 nights, and were lucky to get it.
One has to understand that DVC members usually have enough points, or more for one vacation. That said, we chose a Disney Cruise along the California Coast for 7 nights all meals paid for as opposed to a week staying at the Villas At The Wilderness Lodge without meals, or DDP for the same amount of points.
While DLR is now the jewel, why aren't they adding more DVC here in CA? It seems a no brainer for me. I think the problems at TDO, are not helped at all by the upper management at Disney.

 

[Todd H]

Did I miss '74's thoughts on "Tron Track?"

 

[rle4lunch]

Absolutely true. Nowadays people have this perception that if the Magic Kingdom has no fireworks, no parade, and closes at 7-8 p.m., it's not worth visiting and go to another park. We close at 9 and people act like we're closing at 5, which nobody seems to bat an eye at over at DAK.

That's because you can truly be done with this park in 4-5 hours, same goes for craptacular DHS. Unless you're in a group bigger than 4 people, then you're looking at a full day at DAK. Even with a group of 7 the first week of December this year, we got thru DHS in like 4 hours in the afternoon. And that was even staying in the Osborne Family Lights for over an hour.