Spirited News and Observations and Opinions ...

[michmousefan]

Wow. What a quiet weekend it has been ... I guess folks are all out enjoying the long holiday break or watching lousy basketball games ... oh, what's that you say? The NHL came back today? Yawn ....

Not sure what basketball you were watching yesterday, but there were three great games (Syracuse-Louisville, Mich State- Ohio State and Butler-Gonzaga) all in a row on ESPN on Saturday... priming the pump for March Madness.

 

[GoofGoof]

RIght here is the difference, they are not treating average guest like "high rollers". If your an average guest ....Back of the line for you.

Maybe that happens, but IMHO If you are an average guest staying on property you won't be shut out. This is all just pure speculation on my part since we don't really know how this will be rolled out. For example, the average guest who goes every year and stays a week at the all-stars would be rated at the gold level. Maybe they get an e-mail saying congratulations, you are being upgraded to platinum level and as a result you can book a limited time magic package for next year which include accommodations at a moderate resort and park tickets. It also includes 1 extra FP+ per day, an exclusive meet and greet with Donald Duck (who they know is your favorite character from data mining) and a behind the scenes tour of the MK (you looked up the price of this tour 3 times before your last trip, but never bought it). The package is 20% more than what this guest usually spends by staying at a value resort and buying a 5 day park hopper from a discount site, but is still less than someone off of the street pricing out the room, tickets and tour. The psychological pull of knowing you have been upgraded to a higher status and knowing that you are getting a deal not available to the general public could be large. Maybe you really can't afford it, but you just got a no interest financing offer from your Disney Visa saying no interest for a year on purchases made in the next month. Remember the game is all about extracting more money from each and every guest, not just the guy in the suite at the Grand Floridian but even the working class family who stays at the Values. If you are talking about the average guest as a day guest going to MK but staying at cousin eddie's house and eating off property to save a buck, you are probably right. Back of the line...

Just to be clear, I am not endorsing any of this or saying its a good thing. I'm just throwing out some possible ideas around how they could use this system to extract more money from guests who will probably be more than happy to shell it out. If they just dangle a few extra FP+ reservations you will still hook a few people, but the system won't work nearly as well. There has to be a quantifiable benefit before people will change buying behavior.

 

[John]

Maybe that happens, but IMHO If you are an average guest staying on property you won't be shut out. This is all just pure speculation on my part since we don't really know how this will be rolled out. For example, the average guest who goes every year and stays a week at the all-stars would be rated at the gold level. Maybe they get an e-mail saying congratulations, you are being upgraded to platinum level and as a result you can book a limited time magic package for next year which include accommodations at a moderate resort and park tickets. It also includes 1 extra FP+ per day, an exclusive meet and greet with Donald Duck (who they know is your favorite character from data mining) and a behind the scenes tour of the MK (you looked up the price of this tour 3 times before your last trip, but never bought it). The package is 20% more than what this guest usually spends by staying at a value resort and buying a 5 day park hopper from a discount site, but is still less than someone off of the street pricing out the room, tickets and tour. The psychological pull of knowing you have been upgraded to a higher status and knowing that you are getting a deal not available to the general public could be large. Maybe you really can't afford it, but you just got a no interest financing offer from your Disney Visa saying no interest for a year on purchases made in the next month. Remember the game is all about extracting more money from each and every guest, not just the guy in the suite at the Grand Floridian but even the working class family who stays at the Values. If you are talking about the average guest as a day guest going to MK but staying at cousin eddie's house and eating off property to save a buck, you are probably right. Back of the line...

Just to be clear, I am not endorsing any of this or saying its a good thing. I'm just throwing out some possible ideas around how they could use this system to extract more money from guests who will probably be more than happy to shell it out. If they just dangle a few extra FP+ reservations you will still hook a few people, but the system won't work nearly as well. There has to be a quantifiable benefit before people will change buying behavior.

I understand your not endorseing it. You also give a lot of If"s and"s an but's. GIving discounts is nothing new. They do the same thing now with pin codes. I think the "perks you outline would be more in line with a mod resort level guest. Value resort level guest wil be value accordingly. But this is just symantics. I have booked many of trips for many people. Modt of the vaule resort customers are at a value resort for a reason. What your trying to do is "upsell" them. Again doing something that Disney hasnt done outright....in your face. Its a unsavory sales tactic that was just below what Disney would particapate in....but now a days....who knows.

 

[GoofGoof]

I understand your not endorseing it. You also give a lot of If"s and"s an but's. GIving discounts is nothing new. They do the same thing now with pin codes. I think the "perks you outline would be more in line with a mod resort level guest. Value resort level guest wil be value accordingly. But this is just symantics. I have booked many of trips for many people. Modt of the vaule resort customers are at a value resort for a reason. What your trying to do is "upsell" them. Again doing something that Disney hasnt done outright....in your face. Its a unsavory sales tactic that was just below what Disney would particapate in....but now a days....who knows.

This system could be used as a much more individually tailored pin code system. In the past the logic for who got pin codes and who didn't was never really known and I doubt we'll ever know all the logic of this system either, but with more info they can really zero in on which guests to target. They may also try to tailor offers to keep guests on property. If they see you usually check in for a week but leave the property for 2 whole days it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out where you went.

 

[Magenta Panther]

I have to admit that Goof and I have butted heads over the years on anotherDisneyPlace.com (albeit, good-naturedly), but it was fascinating to read his take on the differences he noticed between Disney and UNI and the comparisons he made, which harken back to some of my original posts in this thread.

UNI/IOA had an alive, dynamic vibrancy going on. It just seemed exciting to be there last month. WDW was enjoyable, but it (even with New Fantasyland and the fun of MVMCP and Tron Track, all of which I enjoyed, I might add) had a feeling of tiredness that you get at a mall that's going bad. Anyone visit a Borders or a Circuit City or a Montgomery Wards in the last few years of their existence? It just seemed like everyone was resigned to a certain fate.

No, I don't think WDW is going out of business. But going through the motions? Just doing the absolute minium to run the parks like they care? Oh yeah. EPCOT barely looked like it was Christmas. Some places were so bare and lacking in decorations. And the MK, again, they are using the same decorations and tree on MSUSA that they were 20 years ago. With all the added revenue they get from having 30 or whatever Christmas Parties, it is astounding that none of that money is used annually to freshen the event. It's the same year after tired year. I think I loved it so much because it had been years since I had gone and the tickets were free.

It's tough to explain, but the difference in feelings I get at WDW now vs. even in the late 90s is palpable. You can almost feel the Wall Street mentality at play when you see attractions falling apart, hula hoops and chalk on MSUSA and no side item with your sandwich.

That's why I'm seriously afraid that the morons running Disney still want to sell the parks to somebody else. The behaviors are distressingly similar to behaviors I've seen before: cut costs, spend as little as possible, screw the employees - all to build up surplus, pay debts down and make the property more attractive to potential buyers. TDO's behavior frustrates and scares the hell out of me sometimes. I wonder what's really going on...

 

[dhall]

A good example of this is the Target "RED" card, which gives you 5 percent off all purchases at Target in exchange for simply letting Target know what you're buying and when you buy it (and no, the goal isn't just to sell consumer credit - the "RED" card is also available as a debit card with that same 5 percent discount).

Target already knows, especially if you use the same credit card every time. The 5% is for saving them the trouble of buying your demographics separately, and also to tie all of the cards you use to the same account.

 

[flynnibus]

Re: target

In house vs credit cards means no fees to the merchant banks. It also serves to as incentive to shop at target vs the competition.

 

[nytimez]

Target already knows, especially if you use the same credit card every time. The 5% is for saving them the trouble of buying your demographics separately, and also to tie all of the cards you use to the same account.

Yes, they do know IF you use a card or the same card every time. Absolutely.

But if you think the 5 percent is just some kind of "convenience fee" for them, you're badly mistaken. If that's all they wanted, they'd go for the no-fee loyalty card with occasional discounts, like a supermarket.

And sorry, Flynn, but there's more to it than that.

It is primarily about allowing Target to track all of your purchases, period. Every thing else - loyalty, convenience, bank fees etc - is an "also."

Again, your habits and your purchase history on an individual level are worth money - and anyone who claims otherwise so wrong they're either completely ignorant or spreading an agenda.

 

[John]

This system could be used as a much more individually tailored pin code system. In the past the logic for who got pin codes and who didn't was never really known and I doubt we'll ever know all the logic of this system either, but with more info they can really zero in on which guests to target. They may also try to tailor offers to keep guests on property. If they see you usually check in for a week but leave the property for 2 whole days it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out where you went.

I am sure your right....tailoring a offer will help same as throwing some extra FP's to them to change their minds about Uni's boy toy. IMO what they are doing is for every guest they give a little extra something there will be a number of guest who they "downgrade". Harrahs model was to make more people feel inclueded. Disney's model is to make some less included. You keep talking about people who can afford to move up a resort level.....afford a couple hundred bucks for some "special" package. I am talking about the average guest. The people you are talking about dosnt have to save for two years to visit.

I am not argueing with you over what they are trying to do. I am sure much of what you say is true. I am just saying that I think the buisness model they are attempting is not a good one. For every person who will love this program there will be one who hates it. You will get some to forgoe a day at UNI and some who will take an extra day because of it. I aso think many of whom who are in favor of the program may have the finances to take advantage of the program. I am not jealous of them....just stateing my opinion.

A resort experience is much different then a park experience. Most people realize that if you pay more for your resort your going to find better amenities. With the park experience All of us knew what we could expect.....Quality. You paid admission and everyone was treated the same. Disney prided themselves on accomplishing this. As I said they built their buisness on this concept. Now they are fundamentally changeing the way they do buisness.....the way guest are going to be treated. They told us they are going to do just that. I just cant get thrilled over it.

 

[dhall]

...and I guess that where I'm confused because I don't see the harm in Disney ibuzzing me to tell me it's time for a churro, reguardless if I buy another, or some other item, for anyone else.

Back when the internet was just getting commercialized, there were a lot of people who said the same thing about spam email -- "how hard is it to ignore one or two spams".

That said, major corporations that have programs like these are generally very aware of messaging fatigue: they'll usually try to limit the number of targeted messages per target, and they spend very large amounts of money on software that determines, based on everything in your profile, which of many thousands of possible messages to send you.

In the churro example, suppose they know that they typically have 25 churros left over and that churro messages have, in the past, resulted in a 5% success rate. The software knows to send out 500 churro messages, so it finds 500 churro eaters currently in the park, ranks them by several factors, then sends out the message to the 500 highest rank. Those factors typically include how many previous targeted messages they've received that day, how frequently they respond to targeted messages, and (most importantly) are they likely to a respond to a message about something more profitable than a churro.

So one of the questions becomes: Does Disney management have the sense to roll out a program like this with sensitivity to make it feel like positive personal attention at best or no big thing at worst, or did they value engineer the back office systems to the point that you're getting a fairly steady stream of messaging targeted at most anyone?

 

[dhall]

Yes, they do know IF you use a card or the same card every time. Absolutely.

But if you think the 5 percent is just some kind of "convenience fee" for them, you're badly mistaken. If that's all they wanted, they'd go for the no-fee loyalty card with occasional discounts, like a supermarket.

And sorry, Flynn, but there's more to it than that.

It is primarily about allowing Target to track all of your purchases, period. Every thing else - loyalty, convenience, bank fees etc - is an "also."

Again, your habits and your purchase history on an individual level are worth money - and anyone who claims otherwise so wrong they're either completely ignorant or spreading an agenda.

I'm not flynn, and I know this technology and how customers use it very, very well. Target doesn't need RedCard to track all of your purchases -- they're doing that already. If you use multiple cards, they probably already have them tied together via 3rd party data, but sometimes that data is suspect or the algorithms are loose enough that there's an error rate that they'd like to eliminate. They're paying the 5% to get the information directly from you and to definitively tie all your accounts (and the occasional cash purchase) together.

Another thing (and maybe the most important thing) the 5% buys them is your acceptance of their tracking -- not that they'd stop, but now you really can't complain about it since you've been pocketing the nickels. For RedCard customers, they don't have to pretend they don't know about your demographics.

 

[GoofGoof]

I am sure your right....tailoring a offer will help same as throwing some extra FP's to them to change their minds about Uni's boy toy. IMO what they are doing is for every guest they give a little extra something there will be a number of guest who they "downgrade". Harrahs model was to make more people feel inclueded. Disney's model is to make some less included. You keep talking about people who can afford to move up a resort level.....afford a couple hundred bucks for some "special" package. I am talking about the average guest. The people you are talking about dosnt have to save for two years to visit.

I am not argueing with you over what they are trying to do. I am sure much of what you say is true. I am just saying that I think the buisness model they are attempting is not a good one. For every person who will love this program there will be one who hates it. You will get some to forgoe a day at UNI and some who will take an extra day because of it. I aso think many of whom who are in favor of the program may have the finances to take advantage of the program. I am not jealous of them....just stateing my opinion.

A resort experience is much different then a park experience. Most people realize that if you pay more for your resort your going to find better amenities. With the park experience All of us knew what we could expect.....Quality. You paid admission and everyone was treated the same. Disney prided themselves on accomplishing this. As I said they built their buisness on this concept. Now they are fundamentally changeing the way they do buisness.....the way guest are going to be treated. They told us they are going to do just that. I just cant get thrilled over it.

You are probably correct that there will be a certain demographic of guests who spend below a certain level who will get mostly ignored. You are probably also correct that they will choose to reduce the experience for these guests. I think that is a mistake. If you took the current park experience as it exists and made that the baseline or minimum experience than you could use the system to offer additional perks or up sells to guests willing to spend more. You would still be making an additional profit without diminishing the overall experience for anyone.

 

[nytimez]

I'm not flynn, and I know this technology and how customers use it very, very well. Target doesn't need this to track all of your purchases -- they're doing that already. If you use multiple cards, they probably already have them tied together via 3rd party data, but sometimes that data is suspect or the algorithms are loose enough that there's an error rate that they'd like to eliminate. They're paying the 5% to get the information directly from you and to definitively tie all your accounts (and the occasional cash purchase) together.

Another thing (and maybe the most important thing) the 5% buys them is your acceptance of their tracking -- not that they'd stop, but now you really can't complain about it since you've been pocketing the nickels. For RedCard customers, they don't have to pretend they don't know about your demographics.

Again, not arguing that Target - and other retailers - are doing it already. Arguing with your idea that 5 percent is some pittance of a convenience fee and not a cold calculation by the company of what they think it's worth to them financially to be able to tie your data together like this.

It IS - and it IS concrete proof that your data and habits are worth cold, hard cash to companies EVEN when they can already get at least some of that data via other methods.

 

[dhall]

Again, not arguing that Target - and other retailers - are doing it already. Arguing with your idea that 5 percent is some pittance of a convenience fee and not a cold calculation by the company of what they think it's worth to them financially to be able to tie your data together like this.

It IS - and it IS concrete proof that your data and habits are worth cold, hard cash to companies EVEN when they can already get at least some of that data via other methods.

Of course there's a value for discount trade going on, and they calculate the 5% the same way they calculate the price of everything else in the store. It's not really a question that the data is worth cold hard cash -- the fine hair I think we're splitting here is that the discount isn't buying them the ability to track data, it's buying them better quality data and customer's acceptance that they have it and will use it.

 

[nytimez]

Of course there's a value for discount trade going on, and they calculate the 5% the same way they calculate the price of everything else in the store. It's not really a question that the data is worth cold hard cash -- the fine hair I think we're splitting here is that the discount isn't buying them the ability to track data, it's buying them better quality data and customer's acceptance that they have it and will use it.

I would say more the former than the latter. I'm guessing many customers still don't realize they're being tracked, even when they sign up for a Red Card, because people are largely uninformed.

But yes, in that case, we're largely on the same page.

 

[Goofyernmost]

I would say more the former than the latter. I'm guessing many customers still don't realize they're being tracked, even when they sign up for a Red Card, because people are largely uninformed.

Or they know and just don't care, because all the tracking in the world will not get everyone to alter their spending habits. I have cards from everyplace, and it doesn't in any way change my spending goals. I buy what I want, take advantage of discounts on items that I needed and was going to buy anyway and that's it. I don't understand the details of HOW the system works but I do know that they are tracking in a sense, my every purchase, method of payment, etc. I also know that security cameras are able to know where I am in the store at all times, although they may not know specifically who I am, as a body I am being followed.

 

[ChrisFL]

I wonder how much the RFID bands are costing them to produce...think about they have to produce at least 10-20 million of them a year

 

[nytimez]

Or they know and just don't care, because all the tracking in the world will not get everyone to alter their spending habits. I have cards from everyplace, and it doesn't in any way change my spending goals. I buy what I want, take advantage of discounts on items that I needed and was going to buy anyway and that's it. I don't understand the details of HOW the system works but I do know that they are tracking in a sense, my every purchase, method of payment, etc. I also know that security cameras are able to know where I am in the store at all times, although they may not know specifically who I am, as a body I am being followed.

It's fair to say that at least some people know and don't care.

The question is, how many?

I think anyone who wants to count on the idea that a significant number of Americans will be significantly informed about anything will probably be disappointed.

But, that's just my opinion.

 

[ULPO46]

I wonder how much the RFID bands are costing them to produce...think about they have to produce at least 10-20 million of them a year

Than if half of what they spent on stupid bands is that much already for the amount spent in the project I am surprised at how stupid Disney is with trying to collect this new data expirement. But yet again not everyone has to use it. So maybe you are right for all four parks but not more than the 40million plus who visit all the parks annually.

 

[ChrisFL]

Than if half of what they spent on stupid bands is that much already for the amount spent in the project I am surprised at how stupid Disney is with trying to collect this new data expirement. But yet again not everyone has to use it. So maybe you are right for all four parks but not more than the 40million plus who visit all the parks annually.

Well a lot of people are supposed to use them for their entire trip....so that takes out several right there.