Space Mountain track replacement questions

[Master Yoda]

Yeah, but when looking at the success of BLT, we have to take into account where it is. Even I would buy DVC right next to the MK...if I were gonna buy into to DVC. I also would wonder how many are already existing owners. I'm not sure if I'm right about this or now, but aren't they still having trouble selling Saratoga Springs (and perhaps AKL)?

I'm glad it's halfway sold though because if BLT fails, there's something really wrong.

Now, back to JT04. As far as layoffs or things of that nature, I really don't feel comfortable saying anymore than, just because you haven't heard anything, doesn't mean that it isn't happening.

From what I understand AKL sales are doing very well and SSR is nearly sold out but it took quite a few special offers to do so. If BLT does sell out before it is completed I think it is safe to say that it will only be a matter of time before the other garden wing goes bye-bye and BLT2 will be built on it's ashes.

 

[hokielutz]

It is a dream I have...
To peek into SM and see this going on...

Love this picture, Lee.

 

[bjbrad99]

Another small factor, perhaps.

The new track at Disneyland is much heavier than the old track.
At MK...if they keep the small track design that they have now, they may be able to get by with just some strengthening of the supports as opposed to replacing them.

Maybe.

The larger track that you refer to represents a different method of engineering design. Instead of using multiple repetitive supports like the current WDW Space Mountain, the box frame of the larger track increases the rigidity of the track segments and allows them to span greater distances without support. This type of design was pioneered and is still used more heavily by European roller coaster designers.

If the refurb will produce a new track layout, you will see a new support system, there is no doubt. I worked as an engineer for a roller coaster design firm, and it is not logistically possible or financially reasonable to create a new track layout from an existing support structure. Rollercoasters exert a large amount of shear force, and the support structure must be designed to meet those needs. Besides, the cost of the support structure for modern coasters is minimal in comparison to the total project cost, as the supports are only rolled steel. Hope this helps.

 

[epcotWSC]

I wish they would release some exact details of what will happen. Then again, maybe they don't even know themselves.

 

[CaptainMichael]

If BLT does sell out before it is completed I think it is safe to say that it will only be a matter of time before the other garden wing goes bye-bye and BLT2 will be built on it's ashes.

I would hope that BLT2 would not be exclusively DVC because that would really price out most of the Contemporary's normal guests that wanna stay there but cannot afford the room prices in the a-frame. I could be wrong but with two huge towers dedicated to DVC wouldn't that dwarf the amount of rooms in the a-frame?

 

[Expo_Seeker40]

I actually hope a BLT 2 is built so that the resort looks "balanced". I don't mind the BLT itself, but when next to the A frame it really is like the "wand" for the Contemporary A frame tower. :lookaroun






















BLT: Disney's Watergate Resort :lol:

 

[Mr.EPCOT]

I just see it as Disney management going into a holding pattern while they determine what is happening with the economy. Some of the signs don't look good and I mean for everyone not just Disney.

So, Disney could green light many projects we have been hearing about but, who knows, that might be at the expense of personnel cutbacks. I think we can all agree nobody here wants to see rank and file folks losing their jobs. I'd rather wait on that SM outside lighting package myself.

This has all been happening for several years now, so the economy isn't really excuse.

No we can't all agree on that. The hate that is being pilled on DVC is bandwagon nonsense, much like the railings against FastPass from a few months ago.

Do we even know that the DVC resorts are coming out of the WDW budget?

I love DVC, I'm planning on buying into it myself, but there is coming to be an excessive amount of those being built when nothing else is really being done throughout Walt Disney World.

And just because no one has talked about it for a while, doesn't mean the arguments against FastPass are any less valid.

Providing that the rumor of it being half sold out already it true I think the stockholders would disagree.

Well, that's great, but let's just hope that the new tower doesn't devalue the Contemporary in the long run. If this sets a precedent that makes Disney feel they can throw as many generic ugly towers up around the Lagoon as they want, that could serve to really take away what is special about that area of WDW.

 

[Master Yoda]

I would hope that BLT2 would not be exclusively DVC because that would really price out most of the Contemporary's normal guests that wanna stay there but cannot afford the room prices in the a-frame. I could be wrong but with two huge towers dedicated to DVC wouldn't that dwarf the amount of rooms in the a-frame?

I am not really sure. I am having trouble finding accurate numbers on either section of the resort. My information has the total number of rooms at the Contemporary at 655 but I have no idea if this is an old number that still includes the demolished wing that BLT now sits on. To make matters worse the number of rooms at BLT is listed as 295 two-bedroom-equivalent villas. Considering the resort is made up of 1 and 2 bedroom villas that could really mean almost anything. In my head than means that there could be 588 1 room villas and 1 2 room villa or 294 2 room villas and 2 1 room villas or any combination in between. Regardless of that logic would dictate that BLT will have a considerably larger guest capacity than the garden wing it replaced. Also I do not see them redesigning the tower to accommodate standard rooms simply because it would be much less expensive for them to copy what they already have done. As much as I would like to think that Disney's cares about the little guy they are not going to forgo the mountain of cash that a second BLT would generate just so I could afford to stay at the Contemporary.

 

[Buried20KLeague]

I am not really sure. I am having trouble finding accurate numbers on either section of the resort. My information has the total number of rooms at the Contemporary at 655 but I have no idea if this is an old number that still includes the demolished wing that BLT now sits on. To make matters worse the number of rooms at BLT is listed as 295 two-bedroom-equivalent villas. Considering the resort is made up of 1 and 2 bedroom villas that could really mean almost anything. In my head than means that there could be 588 1 room villas and 1 2 room villa or 294 2 room villas and 2 1 room villas or any combination in between. Regardless of that logic would dictate that BLT will have a considerably larger guest capacity than the garden wing it replaced. Also I do not see them redesigning the tower to accommodate standard rooms simply because it would be much less expensive for them to copy what they already have done. As much as I would like to think that Disney's cares about the little guy they are not going to forgo the mountain of cash that a second BLT would generate just so I could afford to stay at the Contemporary.

There are also studio rooms (much like normal hotel rooms) and Grand Villas (that are two stories and accomodate 12 people) in the tower.

I've also seen the "close to 300 rooms" number, but there's definitely more to factor in than just the 1 and 2 bedroom configs. Don't forget the "lock-off" rooms... Rooms that can exist on their own, or as part of a larger config.

Whoa. Dizzy from the thread drift. Sorry. :wave:

 

[Buried20KLeague]

Highly paid? Working there?
D@mn....I need your job.:lol:


Agreed, it is total BS. But that is how they look at/justify it. Every decision is based on how it will reflect on them, either at their bottom line or by how many complaints might come in that make them look bad. They want to fly way under the radar.
To misquote Steve King, "All things serve the Jay." So long as Rasulo is looking down at them and smiling, they feel safe and confident that they are doing a good job. But, heaven forbid numbers drop, or they go a little bit, not over budget, but not far enough under budget....then they fear the wrath.
Of course I wasn't there, but I would bet anything that at some point in the last few years, there was a power point presentation that showed how WDW management came in under budget, but kept profit and attendance up. This no doubt earned them pats on the back and a nice bonus check.
Thereby reinforcing the bad behaviour.

One day it will come back to bite them...hopefully not in the form of an improperly maintained axle on Big Thunder.

WHOA.

That's not "THE" Big Thunder axle, is it?!?!?!?!?!?

What I wouldn't give for 10 minutes with your hard drive. :lookaroun:lol:

 

[Master Yoda]

Well, that's great, but let's just hope that the new tower doesn't devalue the Contemporary in the long run. If this sets a precedent that makes Disney feel they can throw as many generic ugly towers up around the Lagoon as they want, that could serve to really take away what is special about that area of WDW.

Ugly is a matter of opinion. I like the design of BLT but I find the architecture of GF, Y&BC and the Boardwalk, regarded by many at WDW top of the line resorts, boring and unoriginal.

 

[CaptainMichael]

So back to SM, I've heard the queue refurb discussion. Can we expect to have an enclosed load area as previously hinted at in a former SM discussion thread? If this happens, could we expect something visually similar to DL or HKDL? This would make the refurb a semi-success IMO providing the track structure is sound.

 

[hokielutz]

I'm guessing logistically Kilimanjaro Safaris couldn't work as part of Adventureland. Can someone verify whether or not setting up something of this size anywhere adjacent to the Magic Kingdom could work?

I would also have to guess that with all the animal structures, land prep, and constant maintenance (of the grounds/feeding animals), that Kilimanjaro Safaris has to be the most expensive ride Disney has made anywhere. Can someone confirm this? It would seem that a ride like the Safaris could only exist if it was the centerpiece of a new park, and would never be added to an existing park.

You'd have to kill off Shades of green resort and the Palm and Magnolia golf courses completely in order to accomodate the safari off of Adventureland. Also, it is not just the ride terrain itself, but the support facilities for all the animals that are needed. Plus... a Monorail trak would ruin the safari feel as well.

Too much would have to be chopped in order to accomodate it. In my opinion, the safari was setup in the best place it could be put.

 

[Mr.EPCOT]

I am not really sure. I am having trouble finding accurate numbers on either section of the resort. My information has the total number of rooms at the Contemporary at 655 but I have no idea if this is an old number that still includes the demolished wing that BLT now sits on. To make matters worse the number of rooms at BLT is listed as 295 two-bedroom-equivalent villas. Considering the resort is made up of 1 and 2 bedroom villas that could really mean almost anything. In my head than means that there could be 588 1 room villas and 1 2 room villa or 294 2 room villas and 2 1 room villas or any combination in between. Regardless of that logic would dictate that BLT will have a considerably larger guest capacity than the garden wing it replaced. Also I do not see them redesigning the tower to accommodate standard rooms simply because it would be much less expensive for them to copy what they already have done. As much as I would like to think that Disney's cares about the little guy they are not going to forgo the mountain of cash that a second BLT would generate just so I could afford to stay at the Contemporary.

655 is indeed the current number, that's 373 rooms in the Tower, and 282 in the South Garden Wing. If you go with the the 295 number for the Bay Lake Tower, that means it will have less units than the North Garden Wing used to.

 

[Lee]

That's not "THE" Big Thunder axle, is it?!?!?!?!?!?
What I wouldn't give for 10 minutes with your hard drive. :lookaroun:lol:

That's it...and stay away from my hard drive.

Actually, I'm half expecting a "Take that down!" message at any time now.......

 

[hokielutz]

While I agree with much of what you say (and most of which has been stated here multiple times), I do think that Toy Story Mania is something that is a great addition (and more fun than Buzz too). Everything in that ride is Grade A. Not only is it extremely fun (especially for someone who's competitive like myself), the queue itself is probably my favorite in all of WDW. I got stuck waiting on line for that ride for probably an hour if not more last summer. I was having so much fun looking at all the stuff they had laid out in the queue that while the wait still seemed like a long time, it was much more enjoyable than most rides in the park. The games that I grew up playing, the talking Mr. Potato Head, just every little detail was fun and was quite awesome. If more rides were done with the kind of detail and creativity that TSM was done, I think there would be much less complaints.

Absolutely agree with you on TSM. Just got back home from a week down there, and my wife and I were lucky enough to experience it 7 times. Each time was great, and no matter the queue wait, it was a great experience. You can complain that animatronics are lacking and there are no real sets in the ride, but it is a very fun and engaging attraction and the ride vehicles are great. Great whimsical theming. A big plus is the attraction can be refreshed again and again. I don't see the addition of another Toy Story attraction being a negative for the parks. If you keep track of this kind of stat... then you need another hobby.

The one complaint that I have is the destructive graffiti that some guests drew on the lincoln logs house wall. And someone thought it would be cool to peel back a lot of paint in the upstair hallway. hope the paint gets fixed real soon.

 

[hokielutz]

The only GOOD thing happening at WDW right now is the Hall of Presidents redo (I think) and its only because Obama has become insanely popular and a huge cash-cow.

It almost seems like Liberty Square has its own team of Imagineers/management making sure the attractions in that section get good overhauls...

WHHAAAAT???

Please tell me you didn't just go there. New Pres always equals a shutdown.... Just this time the whole format is getting a redo... not just because of WHO the new pres is/will be. Please leave the politics at home.

 

[Master Yoda]

655 is indeed the current number, that's 373 rooms in the Tower, and 282 in the South Garden Wing. If you go with the the 295 number for the Bay Lake Tower, that means it will have less units than the North Garden Wing used to.

The verbiage specifically states "295 two-bedroom-equivalent villas" However the points chart lists one bedroom villas as well. To me this would there is a total of 590 bedrooms divided up into 1 and 2 bedroom configurations which would equal more that 295 individual villas. How many remains to be seen. For all I know they have come up with some sort of configuration where there is a central living room flanked by a bed room on each side giving them the ability to modify the total number of villas and there configuration based on need.

 

[Mr.EPCOT]

Ugly is a matter of opinion. I like the design of BLT but I find the architecture of GF, Y&BC and the Boardwalk, regarded by many at WDW top of the line resorts, boring and unoriginal.

I consider them to be somewhat overrated as well. I just find the design of the BLT to be completely uninspired, with minimal work done to have it vibe at all with the classic A-frame. To me, they should go with a design that doesn't look like it could just be built anywhere. I bet you that several decades from now, the BLT will still be something you can show a picture of to the average joe and they won't identify it with Walt Disney World.

This could just be considered personal taste, but I don't think curves should part of the Contemporary's architecture, it's just like saying you can throw up any abstract shapes and that works somehow.

 

[Phonedave]

Correct for whom?

You see that is at the crux of why WDW disappoints so often with its new, replacement or rehabbed attractions.

What's correct for exec careers under the current management structure at TWDC is almost always not going to mesh with what's good for fans, guests, cast and LONG TERM shareholders.


Quality or crap, it doesn't matter to the people running the parks. The only thing that matter is the bottom line ... and the short term one at that.

Well, then put the blame where it belongs - on the board.

If the board of directors is setting comensation based on metrics that reflect short term profits and "crap" than in all honesty I cannot blame execs for their decisions.

While I do try to treat my people right, and do try to look at long term goals, the fact is I have a family to support, and I have a short term on this world to live my life in. I may at times buck the ttend and push for things that I know are not what most people want, but are the right thing to do. But when push comes to shove, I am keeping my job, and making money at it.

If the board is setting goals that are in conflict with the long term viability of Disney, then the blame starts with them. However I am not privy to Senior Execs compensation packages at Disney.

-dave