Space Mountain track replacement questions

[marni1971]

For awhile there was talk that due to the economy, the SM rehab wasn't happening at all! Disney decides to go ahead with it and we get many posters still complaining

I`m afraid if it was left to Disney what is coming would be even less than what we`ll see next year. The SM rehab has always been happening no matter what the economy, it got so small it was a joke. It is bigger now, no thanks to PH.

 

[Lee]

For awhile there was talk that due to the economy, the SM rehab wasn't happening at all! Disney decides to go ahead with it and we get many posters still complaining![ /QUOTE]

Nah...a refurb of some level was always going to happen. There are things that they just really can't put off forever. Not stuff that would benefit guests, mind you, just techincal type things.

Why not be thankful that we are atleast getting something, rather than complaining about what they are giving us?

Because the guests deserve, and WDW can do, much better. I hold them to a high standard based on their past performance and past ideals. If they want to be considered the best...they need to show me that they have earned it.
Coasting on past glories just doesn't work for me.:shrug:

 

[Rob562]

I *think* the stairs were a FedEx addition.

The stairs were a FastPass addition. From when I first started going as an adult (1995 or so), the ramp was a single, wide lane that narrowed at the start of the tunnel into the two sides it is today. The right side was for Guests, the left side was to allow CM access to the tunnel when it was full of Guests, and I guess also for people who decided to bail on the line mid-way through the tunnel.

When they added FastPass, rather than extending the railing up the middle of the ramp (probably because the ramp isn't as wide as the tunnel and they needed wheelchair turning radius on the ramp), they added the bypass stairs. Now, FP and wheelchair guests use the ramp and the right-hand side of the tunnel, and Standby uses the stairs and left-hand side of the tunnel.

-Rob

 

[tirian]

For awhile there was talk that due to the economy, the SM rehab wasn't happening at all! Disney decides to go ahead with it and we get many posters still complaining![ /QUOTE]

Nah...a refurb of some level was always going to happen. There are things that they just really can't put off forever. Not stuff that would benefit guests, mind you, just techincal type things.



Because the guests deserve, and WDW can do, much better. I hold them to a high standard based on their past performance and past ideals. If they want to be considered the best...they need to show me that they have earned it.
Coasting on past glories just doesn't work for me.:shrug:

How dare you suggest WDW management makes mistakes and isn't perfect! Don't you know they're gods that can never be wrong?! Where's your sense of magic and pixie dust? Why do you always look for the negatives? Everybody knows the MK is better without 20K, regular maintenence, Adventureland Veranda, AE, and a real ToonTown!
:animwink:

 

[djkidkaz]

Because the guests deserve, and WDW can do, much better. I hold them to a high standard based on their past performance and past ideals. If they want to be considered the best...they need to show me that they have earned it.
Coasting on past glories just doesn't work for me.:shrug:

Those things are exactly as you described, in the past! Those people from the past who made those decisions you all deem as "better" are gone. For Disney to make every decision correctly is never going to happen. Whether that decision is who is in charge and which Imagineers they hire or put on which projects, or how extensive to make rehabs, etc. Its like lightning in a bottle, every now and then you just hit on something and it all works like magic, but most of the time, that is not the case. Theres going to be mistakes, but theres also going to be the gems that squeeze their way through ( HM refurb, Toy Story Mania, Pixar Place themeing ). Just remember, in the "better past", Disney also made mistakes ( Tiki Room: Under New Management anyone? ).

 

[Expo_Seeker40]

I think the "past" Lee is refering to predates 1998 :drevil:

 

[djkidkaz]

I think the "past" Lee is refering to predates 1998 :drevil:

Well if you want to go way back in the past, how about Walt himself placing Disneyland in an area where he was to succumb to the neon jungle that created itself outside of Disneyland?

 

[WDW1974]

Those things are exactly as you described, in the past! Those people from the past who made those decisions you all deem as "better" are gone.

No. Many remain, but their hands are tied. They can't do the things that would improve the guest experience.

For Disney to make every decision correctly is never going to happen. Whether that decision is who is in charge and which Imagineers they hire or put on which projects, or how extensive to make rehabs, etc. Its like lightning in a bottle, every now and then you just hit on something and it all works like magic, but most of the time, that is not the case.

Well, that's a very negative (if realistic) portrayal of what has happened at WDW of late.

But I expect far better of Disney because that is what they conditioned me to expect and that it what they still deliver at other resorts to this day.

Theres going to be mistakes, but theres also going to be the gems that squeeze their way through ( HM refurb, Toy Story Mania, Pixar Place themeing ). Just remember, in the "better past", Disney also made mistakes ( Tiki Room: Under New Management anyone? ).

One might argue that the Tiki Room rehab was right around the start of the period where WDW began to regularly disappoint fans/guests with its rehabs and additions.

I would.

WDW's golden era to me was the first 20 years I visited (1974-1994) ... everything seemed to always be right and every improvement or addition was just that ... but since WDW's 25th anniversary it's largely been more disappointments than hits (with the huge exception of DAK, although much of its planning and development came in the early 90s).

 

[WDW1974]

Well if you want to go way back in the past, how about Walt himself placing Disneyland in an area where he was to succumb to the neon jungle that created itself outside of Disneyland?

That's a bit ... well, out there.

In 1953, there was no way Walt could have foreseen the OC becoming such a densely populated area. It was all orange groves and agricultural areas.

And Walt couldn't afford to buy more land back then even if he had wanted to.

I don't know what your point is exactly. That Walt wasn't all-knowing?

 

[djkidkaz]

That's a bit ... well, out there.

In 1953, there was no way Walt could have foreseen the OC becoming such a densely populated area. It was all orange groves and agricultural areas.

And Walt couldn't afford to buy more land back then even if he had wanted to.

I don't know what your point is exactly. That Walt wasn't all-knowing?

You've helped make my point. Walt wasn't all knowing and neither is the current management at WDW. Neither of them will make every correct decision, they just make decisions on what they think is correct. How about when Walt put up the Viewliner and then replaced it a year later? Or how about the flying saucers which were extremely problematic, one might even say that they were the "Test Track" of their day. Maybe the Disneyland circus? Oh yeah, that was a failure as well! The parks have NEVER been perfect and never will be!

 

[djkidkaz]

WDW's golden era to me was the first 20 years I visited (1974-1994) ... everything seemed to always be right and every improvement or addition was just that .

So in your eyes, 94 was the start of the decline? That also coincides to the time when the internet was really starting to take off and people were now able to get deep inside the inner workings of the company more-so than they should have. Back in 74 or even 84, unless you were working at Imagineering, you'd have had no clue as to what attractions were discussed as being additions or how big different cutbacks might have been on projects. In addition, the first many years you are going to WDW, your not walking around looking for mold on Space Mountains internal structure, or for bulbs that are burnt out on sign. Your just happy to be there and excited for the day. So sure, I can see how after 20 years of visits and the addition of the internet to that equation, you may start to take a different look at it, but don't kid yourself and think that these "issues" you like to talk about didn't exist before that. One comparison I can make is that during your so called "Golden Age" Eisner spent lots of money on building resort hotels. Im sure back then had we all been on this message board, there would be complaints that too much money was being spent on resorts and not enough at the parks. Well, looks like history is repeating itself as we are now witnessing the DVC resort hotels being built like crazy and people complaining on here about that money not going towards the parks.

 

[Lee]

You are missing my point.
When I say I am judging them on past efforts, I mean that I have seen what they are capable of (Tower of Terror, Splash, AK, Mansion refurb) and so I hold them to that standard. Hence my disdain for Tiki Room, Stitch and Monsters.
It's not about making decisions that don't work out as planned (Saucers, Viewliner). It's OK to be wrong.

I'm talking about having clear options and taking the easy or cheap way out.

Like the PotC refurb. Management was offered the chance to swing for the fence on that one. New lighting, new audio, new show scenes. Did they do it? No. They took the easy/cheap way out and did "just enough".

Mansion turned out better, even though it was an easier refurb to begin with. But, never the less, it turned out fantastic because they chose to go all the way with it. No expense was spared, and nothing of any significance was cut from the proposals.

So...Space Mountain. This refurb has been in development for nearly 5 years. Countless man hours and tons of money have been spent in order to come up with a complete makeover for the ride, much like what was done at Disneyland. In fact, several of the concepts proposed would have blown DL's Mountain out of the water.
So...now...what are we getting? A watered down, just a bit more than they had to do refurb. Why? Because they are taking the easy/cheap way out.

That's not about shooting for something great and having it not pan out, it's about making a conscious choice to do as little as possible. That is what I have a problem with.

 

[PhotoDave219]

Lee, Martin..... so what's actually going to happen with this rehab?

 

[Lee]

Lee, Martin..... so what's actually going to happen with this rehab?

Good question...so good in fact that we ask each other that very thing on a regular basis.:lol:

For sure: air gates, redesigned load area, partial track replacement, as well as nasty stuff like a new ceiling and asbestos abatement.

Maybe: New trains, audio (in new or modified trains), new post show, refurbished queue, enhanced visuals in the mountain.

Not looking good anymore: Full track replacement, exterior lighting package, redesign of the area surrounding the Mountain structure to bring the New Tomorrowland theme all the way over to that side.

That's as close as I can get it today. New info is tough to come by lately.

 

[WDITrent]

I really wish they would do away with the ugly gift shop exterior. In my opinion, it dwarfs the awesome size of Space Mountain and it has a terribly ugly look.

I'm actually very excited for the new ceiling on the loading area. I'm curious how it will look.

 

[marni1971]

So in your eyes, 94 was the start of the decline? That also coincides to the time when the internet was really starting to take off and people were now able to get deep inside the inner workings of the company more-so than they should have.

No - it coincides with the death of Frank Wells and Eisner loosing his way. Funny conincidence?

 

[djkidkaz]

I'm talking about having clear options and taking the easy or cheap way out.

Like the PotC refurb. Management was offered the chance to swing for the fence on that one. New lighting, new audio, new show scenes. Did they do it? No. They took the easy/cheap way out and did "just enough".

That doesn't make sense to me? What reason would the management have for turning down free money to upgrade an attraction? If someone hands me $100, I don't say "Nah, I'll just take $25, thanks anyways!"

So...Space Mountain. This refurb has been in development for nearly 5 years. Countless man hours and tons of money have been spent in order to come up with a complete makeover for the ride, much like what was done at Disneyland. In fact, several of the concepts proposed would have blown DL's Mountain out of the water.
So...now...what are we getting? A watered down, just a bit more than they had to do refurb. Why? Because they are taking the easy/cheap way out.

But you've said yourself that you don't know all the details and that it changes almost daily. So why are you making statements that they took the cheap way out when you don't really know one way or the other? My thinking would be that they learned their lesson from Pirates and showed so by the way they handled Mansion. Your thinking comes across as they are taking the cheap way out and Mansion was just a lucky day for us.

 

[djkidkaz]

No - it coincides with the death of Frank Wells and Eisner loosing his way. Funny conincidence?

So you think that the rise of the internet has nothing to do with Disney losing its magic and mystique for some folks?

If I didn't have internet, I'd have no idea what Space looks like with the lights on and if it has mold, or to what the extent of a refurbishment is going to be, etc. I'd just go and enjoy what is being offered.

You guys may have some connections on the inside, but obviously those people aren't too deep inside the WDW company as you can't even find out whats going on with the refurbishment for sure. How do we know that maybe in the board meetings they've made an agreement to scale back on Space to get approval to do something grander in scale elsewhere? Its not just an endless supply of money. Maybe concessions had to be made with Space so that money could be used for something better for Mermaid? Whats annoying is that rather than try and be positive when noone on this board really has a clue in hell what is really going on, many of you prefer to be pessimists.

 

[PhotoDave219]

Good question...so good in fact that we ask each other that very thing on a regular basis.:lol:

For sure: air gates, redesigned load area, partial track replacement, as well as nasty stuff like a new ceiling and asbestos abatement.

Maybe: New trains, audio (in new or modified trains), new post show, refurbished queue, enhanced visuals in the mountain.

Not looking good anymore: Full track replacement, exterior lighting package, redesign of the area surrounding the Mountain structure to bring the New Tomorrowland theme all the way over to that side.

That's as close as I can get it today. New info is tough to come by lately.

Thanks Lee. Appreciated. At least i have something to look forward to in a few years when i come back.

I think thats the big difference for me with changes at Disney.... we only went every 5-10 years or so. Disney seems to make more progress when you don't go as often.

 

[Lee]

That doesn't make sense to me? What reason would the management have for turning down free money to upgrade an attraction? If someone hands me $100, I don't say "Nah, I'll just take $25, thanks anyways!"

I assure you, it happens.
The reason they turn it down is so that they will look good to their bosses in Burbank. They can say, "Look! I only spent x amount on Pirates and the guests still seem to like it! My numbers are up and my expense is down! WooHoo...promote me!"
It is nothing but corporate/management bottom line thinking.
Another example. Letting lights burn out on Main St. For years it was a point of pride at Disney that you couldn't find a burned out bulb, and if you somehow did, it would be replaced before the next night. Now, they don't seem to give it much thought. It keeps costs down, and guests don't stay away because of it, so why not let lights burn out?

But you've said yourself that you don't know all the details and that it changes almost daily. So why are you making statements that they took the cheap way out when you don't really know one way or the other?

Oh, I do know one way or the other. The facts are not changing daily. What is changing are the reports I am getting from multiple sources in regards to the scope of the refurb. I get conflicting information from reliable sources, but they all agree....it ain't gonna be what it could/should have been. Simple as that. Because management didn't want to a) spend the money and b) keep the ride down for too long. That is fact.

My thinking would be that they learned their lesson from Pirates and showed so by the way they handled Mansion. Your thinking comes across as they are taking the cheap way out and Mansion was just a lucky day for us.

No, they learned no lesson from Pirates. In fact, some of them are somewhat proud that they did far less than Disneyland did with their refurb, and yet still get great numbers through the turnstiles. To them, Pirates was a great success. And on the surface, it is.

Look at it like this. Disneyland's SM was down for over two years, with demo/construction lasting for nearly twenty months. They spared no expense, got all new track, supports, rockets, queue themeing, visual effects, paint, original score for the onboard audio...the works. Nothing was untouched except for the basic structure of the building and the bones of the loading station. Sure, the track/support work had to be done for structural reasons, but everything else was plussed to enhance the guest experience. Many, many millions of dollars spent just to make it a better ride.

Management at MK, on the other hand, is freaking out about having the ride down for more than six months. Seriously. They would love to rush this thing through to get it open for Thanksgiving.

I'm not pessimistic. I am Mr. Brightside. However, I am realistic. I would probably be happier living blissfully unaware....