Space Mountain Heading to the Scrap Heap :)

[Master Yoda]

As far as the track support discussion goes let me start off by saying that I have never seen the supports close up, I know no one who works at SM, and I have never seen any construction schematics etc... for SM.

However, being in the industry I find it unlikely and almost impossible that any type of refurb would be going on if there was even a hint of track support failure. This isn't just about a lawsuit if someone gets injured. The engineers, architects, contractors etc... can also be held criminally liable if an accident happens that could have been prevented if it is proven that people knew about it yet did nothing.

If there was even a remote analysis of the supports that concluded fatigue had weakened the structure and failure was possible things would not proceed until corrected. It seems like there is a misconception that us folks in the construction industry dont pay attention to stuff like this but in reality we do. If they know there could be a problem with the supports, they would fix it.

I know that some accidents happen, but if the supports were really bad enough for people on an internet forum to "know" about it. Then the architects, engineers, contractors, and project management knows about it as well and would take appropriate action to correct it.

The issue with SM is not rust in my opinion, but metal fatigue - It can manifest itself as tiny cracks around stress risers, or may be under the surface, requiring x-ray or eddy current detection. I would be willing to bet that a detailed fatigue analysis/investigation on this structure, even if it exists and is complete, probably makes certain lifetime assumptions regarding operating stresses and cycles that may or may not be correct or what is actually happening. MANY assumptions are made in these types of analyses, and they have to be verified and validated for the lifetime of the structure. I have been a structural engineer (Aerospace), for about 21 years now, so if I can contribute to the discussion, or answer any particular questions, feel free to ask away. I sent a resume to WDW but never got a response

I would tend to agree with both of these posts. While my engineering specialty is in wood and not steel my job does require a good working knowledge of steel.

Metal fatigue would be my first concern as well. When any metal is continually loaded and unloaded it will begin to weaken. This loading and unloading can be pretty extreme in a roller coaster. A professional engineer is not going to touch this project unless there is no doubt in his/her mind that the supports are structural sound because as jmvd20 pointed out they can be held criminally liable in the event of a faliure. The way a PE will get that peace of mind is through inspections and testing.

They will typically start with a visual inspection and look for the obvious stuff like rounded out bolt holes, cracks, buckling, etc but if none of that is evident you have to start looking deeper using ultrasonic testing, magnetic particle inspection, and radiographic inspection to confirm that the steel is still up to spec. I simply can not imagine Disney not doing some combination of all of these methods on a regular basis on a steel coaster like SM. They would most certainly be done if a PE is putting his seal on the refurb work being done.

What I do see in the pictures does not really worry me all that much. I see a bad paint job and what would appear to be some minor surface corrosion. I have seen steel in much worse shape from an appearance standpoint test out just fine. Steel doesn't have to be pretty to work.

EDIT: All that being said I am still of the opinion that they should have completley gutted this attraction. Good enough is simply not the Disney way IMHO.

 

[krueg66]

Do you guys know if they are redoing the track like they did at DL? The ride there is SO much better...that would be fantastic if they were!

 

[projectorguy1]

Weird seeing coaster supports made of angle iron.:lookaroun
Nobody builds coasters like that.

Is the ride ready to collapse....no, I haven't heard anything like that.
But, I do know that the supports, which are very unusual in design and unlike any others I know of, are now 35 years old and have been carrying riders every day of those years (unlike most other coasters, which are seasonal).
If replacing the support structure will make the ride a)smoother, b)safer or c)allow for the addition of improved show elements....then it should be done.
As I said before: Show comes before Efficiency.

But seriously....the difference is huge.

Those angles look like they were assembled for a temporary structure - Lots of welds at the areas of highest stress - The newer DL structure is MUCH better. Bolted joints are much much preferable to welded joints in structure that sees this kind of repetitive loading. It looks like that even the bolted joints are attached to welded on bosses. Do you think all of these welds have been radiographically inspected? Regularly? It would take months to do that. I'm betting just a visual without any surface prep. Sometimes paint can hide a multitude of issues...

 

[wdwmagic]

Do you guys know if they are redoing the track like they did at DL? The ride there is SO much better...that would be fantastic if they were!

DL is smooth and has no drops.

WDW is rough as heck and has drops.

In terms of just the actual track, I prefer the track at WDW much more

 

[Lee]

In terms of just the actual track, I prefer the track at WDW much more

Layout wise....sure.
But..with a whole new track we would get the best of both worlds.

 

[hack2112]

Ok. I was going to wait for the ladder to show up, but I can't anymore. So, here is my ladder motivator, brought to you by impatience.

 

[wdwmagic]

Layout wise....sure.
But..with a whole new track we would get the best of both worlds.

Well I'm all for new everything but whichever way it goes, I still want to retain the same layout, and the bumpiness - thats the way I like my SM

 

[Lee]

I still want to retain the same layout, and the bumpiness - thats the way I like my SM

*Sigh*
Note to self: Go to England at first opportunity. Give Steve a good talking-to. Show him the error in his ways. Eat fish and chips. Return to Florida.

 

[wdwmagic]

*Sigh*
Note to self: Go to England at first opportunity. Give Steve a good talking-to. Show him the error in his ways. Eat fish and chips. Return to Florida.

LOL Paris on the other hand, now that is some bumpiness I can do without!

 

[WDW1974]

Woah, hold on here...you would really put MK behind HKDL?

Honestly, I am not sure ... but just the fact that it is something I have to ponder should give you some idea as to where I am coming from.

There is so, so little at HKDL. No Splash, Thunder, Pirates, or Haunted Mansion...may I ask what this park does have? It has the best Space Mountain, and literally nothing else in the way of e-tickets, unless Jungle Cruise is still considered an e-ticket. I personally believe those are key Disney experiences. I haven't been there, but it looks like a mere shadow of MK or DL.

Ah, so true. BUT ... what it does have is high quality. The overall experience ... the Disney Details ... those are there in spades. The park is beautifully landscaped, maintained to an incredible degree, full of wonderful, happy, smiling CMs. It has high quality and diverse (albeit mostly different Asian cuisines) dining. It has great stage shows. An amazing pyro show. Multiple parades most of the year. Seasonal offerings that don't involve paying an extra fee. The theming is wonderful. So, all the little things ... the key things to use your term that make a truly Disney experience for me are there.

In terms of true E-Tix, I'd say HKDL has five ... Space Mountain, Jungle Cruise, Small World, Festival of the Lion King and Golden Mickeys. Then it has a handful of the C-D type, Buzz Lightyear, PhilharMagic, Pooh ...

It certainly is lacking in big, signature Disney attractions. I won't defend the fact that after announcing the park, Disney pulled a fast one and chopped a good 50-60% of the park off ... two lands disappeared, two Fantasyland dark rides did too, Small World and Mansion both were cut, a unique Dino-themed rolley coaster thru a primeval forest disappeared, a version of the Lewis and Clark raft ride designed for Disney's America was cut, so to were things I thought didn't belong to begin with like Tough To Be a Bug and the Aladdin carnie spinner.

But I go to a Disney park (or any park) for the overall experience.

At MK, they took a wonderful, amazing park and have WalMarted it. There are vast dead zones. Many unique shops were shuttered and are now simply facades. The basics aren't followed anymore ... so walkways can be dirty, landscaping lacking, CMs slovenly. And let's not even talk about strollers and ECVs because they are virtually non-existant, let alone the ugly traffic-clogging problem they are in O-Town. Do I love attractions like Splash Mountain, Pirates and Mansion? Yes. Do I wish HKDL had them (or similar)? yes.

But I also wish WDW maintained those attractions. I wish I could hold the handrails on Splash without smelling the funk of thousands of strangers mixed with mold because Disney can't be bothered with cleaning the ride vehicles nightly. I wish I could watch the Country Bears or CoP without seeing AAs in awful shape. I wish I could ride Pirates without 1973 sound clashing with 2006 sound because they were too cheap to do things the right way. I wish I could walk by fountains and see them on and not shoved full of potted plants and trash.I wish the park felt as large and impressive as it did in the 70s, 80s and 90s and not simply a mass market characture of DL for rubes who don't know any better.

So, it's a very tough call for me. HKDL is lacking, but it has the foundation to be an absolutely amazing park. It has the best natural location of any MK by far. To come off the subway onto Lantau and be in a tropical paradise and see green mountains behind the castle, can't be beat.

But it needs so much of what was cut.

At the same point, you have MK which has plenty of attractions (albeit FAR less than DL, TDL and DLP) but has lost a good chunk of its soul.

I can tell you this, and perhaps it is unfair as a Floridian, but if I had the chance to spend tomorrow in either MK or HKDL, I'd be spending it in China.

Would you really give up all of those attractions at MK to have HKDL here instead?

No. I wouldn't. But I'd sure love to see HK standards back at WDW.

I miss the days when 'the place is so clean you could eat off the ground' as my dad used to say.

Now, I have been to Tokyo Disneyland, and I would say that it is better, without question, to MK. That park is almost identical to DL, and that's a good thing.

I haven't been to Tokyo (yet), but I do know it is much better than MK. I wouldn't call it identical to DL, though. TDL is more of a best of MK/DL with plenty of unique things too. I can't wait to see the place later this year!

 

[Phonedave]

As far as the track support discussion goes let me start off by saying that I have never seen the supports close up, I know no one who works at SM, and I have never seen any construction schematics etc... for SM.

However, being in the industry I find it unlikely and almost impossible that any type of refurb would be going on if there was even a hint of track support failure. This isn't just about a lawsuit if someone gets injured. The engineers, architects, contractors etc... can also be held criminally liable if an accident happens that could have been prevented if it is proven that people knew about it yet did nothing.

If there was even a remote analysis of the supports that concluded fatigue had weakened the structure and failure was possible things would not proceed until corrected. It seems like there is a misconception that us folks in the construction industry dont pay attention to stuff like this but in reality we do. If they know there could be a problem with the supports, they would fix it.

I know that some accidents happen, but if the supports were really bad enough for people on an internet forum to "know" about it. Then the architects, engineers, contractors, and project management knows about it as well and would take appropriate action to correct it.

I agree 100%

Anyone that holds a PE license (And no, I don't, I had an EIT but then moved out of "real" engineering work) knows about the dual headed monster of public safety and lawsuits.

Anbody who does the work necessary to get a PE is not going to risk loosing everying by "looking sideways"

-dave

 

[krueg66]

DL is smooth and has no drops.

WDW is rough as heck and has drops.

In terms of just the actual track, I prefer the track at WDW much more

I'm tall and the WDW SM kills my back and neck, the ride is much smoother at DL. It seems like WDW SM has gotten worse of the years as well, I guess that might explain the refurb. If they could maintain the original track layout but make it smooth like DL, THAT would be ideal!

 

[Master Yoda]

I agree 100%

Anyone that holds a PE license (And no, I don't, I had an EIT but then moved out of "real" engineering work) knows about the dual headed monster of public safety and lawsuits.

Anbody who does the work necessary to get a PE is not going to risk loosing everying by "looking sideways"

-dave

Oh they exist but you will not see them dealing anything more complicated than a small house. I have heard of quite a few "plan reviews" being done in parking lots for a few hundred bucks.

 

[WDW1974]

DL is a worldwide destination, as is WDW.
DL attracts locals, as does WDW.

However, as a percentage of it's total attendance, WDW has more tourists than locals, and DL has more locals than tourists. Therefore it would be fair to say that as a trend, DL is more of a local area visited park, and WDW is more of a tourist destination. This is a significant difference.

That is the point that you always seem to ignore in such discussions.

I don't ignore the point at all, Steve. I have been told as much from some of the folks who used to run DLR.

I would even agree that the difference is significant.

However, I'd also say that it is very often overstated, especially on fan sites such as this one. And usually when it is brought up it winds up being twisted around to justify a lowering of the quality of the product in Orlando ... you've used it yourself when trying to justify TDO not doing plussing, maintenance etc on E-Tickets and not adding seasonal overlays. What the argument always sounds like to me is something along the lines of 'WDW is so special, TDO can't touch anything.' And I don't buy that.

Quality is universal, or should be, regardless of whether 60% of your visitors are 'locals' or 30%.

The fact that Space Mountain is getting far less than what it should have gotten (a totally new 21st century E-Ticket experience) is testimony to this backward mindset that TDO employs and many online, yourself included, justify.

 

[Phonedave]

Oh they exist but you will not see them dealing anything more complicated than a small house. I have heard of quite a few "plan reviews" being done in parking lots for a few hundred bucks.

I guess I was being a little too much of a pollyanna, yes they do exist.

When I was an inspector I was offered "incentives", told how to "play ball", and asked if I though the client would want me around after he was notified that I was the cause of delays on his project (yeah, I was the cause, not the contractor trying to blow in fill in 2 foot lifts that was so wet it was off the compaction curves). After i continued to make contractors toe the line, I had the buckets of excavators come awfull close to me a number of times.

So, yes, I can see how a PE can be "convinced" to sign off on things they should not - but as you said, on smaller jobs.

Anything the size of SM, that also involves the public should have independent controlls in place to make sure one person cannot approve substandard construction.

-dave

 

[WDW1974]

LOL Paris on the other hand, now that is some bumpiness I can do without!

Agreed. It's actually painful, which is sad because the attraction is amazing (even after its dumbing down to Mission 2).

In the USA, they'd close it out of fear of lawsuits, but I guess in France it isn't as much of a concern.

I personally think they should strap in Gas and Kalogridis and make them ride the thing for 4-5 straight rides and then see if they shut it down and work on it!

 

[Master Yoda]

I guess I was being a little too much of a pollyanna, yes they do exist.

When I was an inspector I was offered "incentives", told how to "play ball", and asked if I though the client would want me around after he was notified that I was the cause of delays on his project (yeah, I was the cause, not the contractor trying to blow in fill in 2 foot lifts that was so wet it was off the compaction curves). After i continued to make contractors toe the line, I had the buckets of excavators come awfull close to me a number of times.

So, yes, I can see how a PE can be "convinced" to sign off on things they should not - but as you said, on smaller jobs.

Anything the size of SM, that also involves the public should have independent controlls in place to make sure one person cannot approve substandard construction.

-dave

So very true. In the construction industry they guy that finds the problem is the problem.:lol:

 

[Space Mountain]

Just some unasked for advice from someone in the corporate world, while your point may be valid, your employer may not look to kindly to you insinuating that their product is unsafe. Also, you have supplied your first and last name, along with your work location. I'm not sure that is a recipe for job security.

Too bad that first name doesn't exist according to the company records..:drevil:

 

[JWG]

So, 23 pages later, this thread is still worthless without pictures (to the point of the original post)...

 

[jt04]

So, 23 pages later, this thread is still worthless without pictures (to the point of the original post)...

I was thinking the same thing. And nobody was able or willing to answer why they have to close down the railroad for two days as part of the refurb. Seems like Disney is doing everything they can to keep what they are doing from leaking especially pictures. Perhaps someone with a telephoto lens could wander to the top of the Contemporary