Space Mountain Heading to the Scrap Heap :)

[jt04]

If they want to give the illusion they are still dedicated to delivering the highest quality, best attractions in the world like they say they are, yes.

And the Matterhorn is a completely different beast, so I would compare this the that at all.



I don't know how the tests whent either, but I'm willing to bet my very small paychecks that this was a monetary decision. It's the way TDO works.

I think he said that the existing supports would not be able to handle the extra weight. So when they decided not to replace the track and supports they were forced to cut the on board audio. They are looking at using "spot speakers" so that the audio is specific to a certain area of the ride as you pass those fixed in place speakers. I rather like this idea myself. I think external audio elements have certain advantages including the 3d effect caused by the audio doppler shift.

 

[The Conundrum]

M:S?

EE?

And countless others...?

I added E:E to my post, M:S is not a good attraction by any stretch, and these "countless others" were minor refurbs to existing attractions that converted them into cartoon overlays for the most part.

To summarize my last post: Soarin' was great, E:E was solid, im still waiting for some real attractions. For example, from everything i've seen Little Mermaid, Carsland, Harry Potter over at Universal, and most likely Star Tours 2 are what I consider REAL attractions. That will be truely immersive and next generation. Not half-a$$d.

 

[The Conundrum]

For clarification, the $1.2 billion to be invested in DCA will also aid in fixing some of the cohesion problems in that park. As much as I'm looking forward to the slate of new attractions that are coming to that park, I'm also looking forward to the completely redesigned entrance. The park has some excellent attractions (Aladdin Musical, Soarin') as well as some very good attractions (California Screamin', Tower of Terror Light, and Grizzly River Run). The slate of other solid attractions includes It's Tough to be a Bug, Turtle Talk with Crush, Muppetvision 3D, and the Monster's Inc Dark Ride. With the recently added Toy Story Mania, a legitimate argument can be made that this park is as good, if not better than Hollywood Studios, at least in it's attraction lineup. By 2012, we're expecting another excellent attraction in the Radiator Springs Racers, the Little Mermaid dark ride which should be a notch below in terms of quality, as well as the Wonderful World of Color and several other smaller additions.

Even if Hollywood Studios gets Star Tours 2.0, the Monster's Inc Coaster, a refurbished Great Movie Ride, and improvements to Fantasmic, it still may not measure up to the additions being made to DCA.

This is the first i've heard of this. Has Disney stated this offiically? If anything its going to further break apart the California theme because you have the new entry way celebrating Walt's adventures in California, you have Paradise Pier which is a clash of classic 30s Disney charecters + Toy Story. Then we have the Little Mermaid which has zero to do with Walt, California, or 1930s cartoons. Carsland has nothing to do with Walt either but it vaguely makes sense how it relates to California.

I have never once heard a Disney official say this will make the theme cohesive. I know fans have been speculating it will but that is not the objective here. The Objective is to get the themeing and ride quality to a close to tokyo level to remove the "built on the cheap" feel of the park and hopefully get people to come to the park.

 

[Skyway]

How is the Matterhorn a different beast?

It's the only Disney coaster older than SM---by 6 years (which is less than the difference between RnRc and Everest)

Both would certainly be better, smoother, and more "modern" rides with brand new track and on-board audio (can you imagine a "Yodeling" soundtrack like the Price is Right mountain climber? Weeeee!)

I think it's fair to say doing such would be massively expensive on both attractions.

I think it's also fair to say neither attraction needs new track to remain safe and operational.

So why is Disney "cheap" because someone proposed --and then killed-- a track replacement for SM, but they are NOT being attacked for leaving the Matterhorn in it's squeaky, loud, teeth-chipping "classic" form. (Bobsled down icy slopes, my a@@! More like a wagon missing a wheel being pushed off a rocky cliff!)

I'm sure WDI had some wonderful plans for SM. Check out the book "The Disney Mountains" and you'll see John Hench had some amazing plans for SM too. But just because it's proposed does not make it financially feasible (Hench wanted FOUR tracks inside!)

Again--- this all goes back to my main point--- a total track replacement is not necessary. So why go to that expense just for onboard audio? (Or, to look at it another way, why OVERPAY for audio? If it costs X million to add it to a new coaster, doesn't it seem wasteful to spend that same X million for it on SM but also add double/triple/quadruple (?) the cost to make it work on WDW's 1971 attraction?

 

[tirian]

This is the first i've heard of this. Has Disney stated this offiically? If anything its going to further break apart the California theme because you have the new entry way celebrating Walt's adventures in California, you have Paradise Pier which is a clash of classic 30s Disney charecters + Toy Story. Then we have the Little Mermaid which has zero to do with Walt, California, or 1930s cartoons. Carsland has nothing to do with Walt either but it vaguely makes sense how it relates to California.

I have never once heard a Disney official say this will make the theme cohesive.

Yes, they have, but I'm too lazy to pull up examples right now. It was addressed verbally at the press conference.

 

[1disneydood]

They could drop up to 300 lbs. on each SM car by removing one seat. Load from three positions instead of two. Then we could add the on board audio. I'm sure the track can now keep up with a car full of large people, just drop one seat to compensate for the audio.

 

[hardcard]

I'm still amazed that apparently I was the only one who went to a Six Flags in the 90s and went on the "big movie screen/seats move" attraction.

Soarin' is a movie, with some moving seats...

yeah, thats a gross over-simplification of Soarin..

 

[xsupaxmanxsfnex]

I'm not going to try and predict the total outcome of the refurb. I always just end up being disappointed. However, hearing that there is a lot of scrap outside of the building sounds pretty good.
And DL's SM does look very orderly and futuristic.

 

[Lee]

Plus I'm hoping Martin will chime in on this. He said they TESTED Soundtracker---but I don't believe he said how those tests went, or that money was the sole reason it was cut

I can answer that. The tests went great. Great enough that they moved forward with plans to install it...only to have it cut.
A couple more points:
- Matterhorn has undergone several extensive refurbishments in it's 50 years of operation. Like the one where they added the ice caverns to the interior with the yeti. Also, it has had it's track replaced already, some of it more than once.
- Disneyland's mountain. Yes, due to structural issues they had to replace pretty much everything in the building. But, they key point is, they did the work they had to do, as well as going much farther with new show elements and theming. For all intents and purposes, they got a new coaster, not just a repaired one. It's like a wrecked car. DL junked the wrecked 1977 car and went out and bought a brand new 2005, top of the line model with all the bells and whistles. MK...are keeping their wrecked 1975 "classic" rolleyes, and taking it to the body shop for some dent work, bondo and paint. Maybe a wash.
- MK's mountain needs new track. It has carried more guests than any other steel coaster besides Matterhorn (see above) and it's age is showing in the ride's structural integrity. Simple fact: By today's standards, it wasn't built to run 12 hours a day, 365 days a year, for nearly 40 years.
- Adding audio to the trains would not equal "tens of millions" of dollars extra expense. It could be done using the existing track and support structure, only adding some additional support. And yeah, new trains.
- My problem is this: There have been plans in place for years now to do a full, DL scale refurb to the mountain, bringing it to the level of it's counterparts in DL and Hong Kong, and better than Tokyo. Many hours of imagineering time, lots of money invested....only to finally have it cut down by about 50-60% for two reasons: Time and money. Fear of MK ops to have it down any longer than necessary due to the impact is has on the park (their own fault for not adding more rides in the last 15-20 years) played a huge part in this decision. Money...not quite as much. Money was budgeted previously for a larger refurb, but was taken away when they decided to cut the scale of the job. This budget was set aside for SM, and would not impact the building of any other attraction such as Mermaid.
- Bottom line, using one of Disney's own golden rules - Show over Efficiency.
If it costs a bit more to give a better show...it must be done. Basic Keys to the Kingdom.

 

[SirGoofy]

I can answer that. The tests went great. Great enough that they moved forward with plans to install it...only to have it cut.
A couple more points:
- Matterhorn has undergone several extensive refurbishments in it's 50 years of operation. Like the one where they added the ice caverns to the interior with the yeti. Also, it has had it's track replaced already, some of it more than once.
- Disneyland's mountain. Yes, due to structural issues they had to replace pretty much everything in the building. But, they key point is, they did the work they had to do, as well as going much farther with new show elements and theming. For all intents and purposes, they got a new coaster, not just a repaired one. It's like a wrecked car. DL junked the wrecked 1977 car and went out and bought a brand new 2005, top of the line model with all the bells and whistles. MK...are keeping their wrecked 1975 "classic" rolleyes, and taking it to the body shop for some dent work, bondo and paint. Maybe a wash.
- MK's mountain needs new track. It has carried more guests than any other steel coaster besides Matterhorn (see above) and it's age is showing in the ride's structural integrity. Simple fact: By today's standards, it wasn't built to run 12 hours a day, 365 days a year, for nearly 40 years.
- Adding audio to the trains would not equal "tens of millions" of dollars extra expense. It could be done using the existing track and support structure, only adding some additional support. And yeah, new trains.
- My problem is this: There have been plans in place for years now to do a full, DL scale refurb to the mountain, bringing it to the level of it's counterparts in DL and Hong Kong, and better than Tokyo. Many hours of imagineering time, lots of money invested....only to finally have it cut down by about 50-60% for two reasons: Time and money. Fear of MK ops to have it down any longer than necessary due to the impact is has on the park (their own fault for not adding more rides in the last 15-20 years) played a huge part in this decision. Money...not quite as much. Money was budgeted previously for a larger refurb, but was taken away when they decided to cut the scale of the job. This budget was set aside for SM, and would not impact the building of any other attraction such as Mermaid.
- Bottom line, using one of Disney's own golden rules - Show over Efficiency.
If it costs a bit more to give a better show...it must be done. Basic Keys to the Kingdom.

Thread win. Seriously. Especially the bolded part.

 

[Matpez]

yeah, thats a gross over-simplification of Soarin..

I am stunned by the gross over amazement and "favorite ride ever" for a imax movie with moving seats. It's good, for watching a movie...


Back towards topic... any good info on queue changes? post show changes?

 

[figmentisgreat]

yeah, thats a gross over-simplification of Soarin..

And yummy orangy smells

 

[Castle Cake Apologist]

Dear Skyway,

You've clearly never worked in Tomorrowland or walked along the Space Mountain track.

If you had, you would not be defending its structural integrity.

Luckily for you, I have done both of these things with much regularity.

And I can honestly say...

It's in bad shape. Real bad shape.

It most definitely does not deserve defense from anybody.

That is all.

Sincerely,

Jake Ryan

Tomorrowland Ops/Attractions Cast Member
Walt Disney World Resort
Florida

:brick::brick::brick:

PS-
In response to several pages back... based solely on the current Tomorrowland backstory, it is a spaceport. Whatever thematic confusion The ExtraOverrated Alien Encounter provided is no longer there or really part of the backstory in any way anymore.

 

[SirGoofy]

Dear Skyway,

You've clearly never worked in Tomorrowland or walked along the Space Mountain track.

If you had, you would not be defending its structural integrity.

Luckily for you, I have done both of these things with much regularity.

And I can honestly say...

It's in bad shape. Real bad shape.

It most definitely does not deserve defense from anybody.

That is all.

Sincerely,

Jake Ryan

Tomorrowland Ops/Attractions Cast Member
Walt Disney World Resort
Florida

:brick::brick::brick:

:lol:

I literally just had a spit take. Bravo. :sohappy:

 

[Thrill Seeker]

You weren't impressed with Soarin?:shrug:

Anyways, let's give it some time. Plus, Space Mountain wasn't the Mecca of coasters in Orlando last time I checked.

People go to Universal if they want coasters.

No, people go to Busch Gardens if they want coasters. They have them up the wazoo...

 

[jt04]

This is the first i've heard of this. Has Disney stated this offiically? If anything its going to further break apart the California theme because you have the new entry way celebrating Walt's adventures in California, you have Paradise Pier which is a clash of classic 30s Disney charecters + Toy Story. Then we have the Little Mermaid which has zero to do with Walt, California, or 1930s cartoons. Carsland has nothing to do with Walt either but it vaguely makes sense how it relates to California.

I have never once heard a Disney official say this will make the theme cohesive. I know fans have been speculating it will but that is not the objective here. The Objective is to get the themeing and ride quality to a close to tokyo level to remove the "built on the cheap" feel of the park and hopefully get people to come to the park.

Mermaid is part of Walt's legacy. He died you know, quite a while ago, so anything new created by TWDC has to be considered part of his legacy. Cars and Carsland has everything to do with Walt Disney. Too bad for you that you can't see that.

 

[jt04]

I can answer that. The tests went great. Great enough that they moved forward with plans to install it...only to have it cut.
A couple more points:
- Matterhorn has undergone several extensive refurbishments in it's 50 years of operation. Like the one where they added the ice caverns to the interior with the yeti. Also, it has had it's track replaced already, some of it more than once.
- Disneyland's mountain. Yes, due to structural issues they had to replace pretty much everything in the building. But, they key point is, they did the work they had to do, as well as going much farther with new show elements and theming. For all intents and purposes, they got a new coaster, not just a repaired one. It's like a wrecked car. DL junked the wrecked 1977 car and went out and bought a brand new 2005, top of the line model with all the bells and whistles. MK...are keeping their wrecked 1975 "classic" rolleyes, and taking it to the body shop for some dent work, bondo and paint. Maybe a wash.
- MK's mountain needs new track. It has carried more guests than any other steel coaster besides Matterhorn (see above) and it's age is showing in the ride's structural integrity. Simple fact: By today's standards, it wasn't built to run 12 hours a day, 365 days a year, for nearly 40 years.
- Adding audio to the trains would not equal "tens of millions" of dollars extra expense. It could be done using the existing track and support structure, only adding some additional support. And yeah, new trains.
- My problem is this: There have been plans in place for years now to do a full, DL scale refurb to the mountain, bringing it to the level of it's counterparts in DL and Hong Kong, and better than Tokyo. Many hours of imagineering time, lots of money invested....only to finally have it cut down by about 50-60% for two reasons: Time and money. Fear of MK ops to have it down any longer than necessary due to the impact is has on the park (their own fault for not adding more rides in the last 15-20 years) played a huge part in this decision. Money...not quite as much. Money was budgeted previously for a larger refurb, but was taken away when they decided to cut the scale of the job. This budget was set aside for SM, and would not impact the building of any other attraction such as Mermaid.
- Bottom line, using one of Disney's own golden rules - Show over Efficiency.
If it costs a bit more to give a better show...it must be done. Basic Keys to the Kingdom.

OK Lee, not calling you out but you have stated over and over again that you are in the dark as to exactly what is happening and then you give a very detailed discription. So I guess I'm confused by that.:shrug:

From what I understand, when the scope of the project was announced to those who need to be "in the know", it was very well received. I can't believe that if what you say is going to happen is actually what is going to happen that would have been the case.

It's almost like the "non-DoMs" here on WDWmagic are purposely trying to diminish expectations.

 

[SirGoofy]

OK Lee, not calling you out but you have stated over and over again that you are in the dark as to exactly what is happening and then you give a very detailed discription. So I guess I'm confused by that.:shrug:

From what I understand, when the scope of the project was announced to those who need to be "in the know", it was very well received. I can't believe that if what you say is going to happen is actually what is going to happen that would have been the case.

It's almost like the DOM crowd here on WDWmagic is purposely trying to diminish expectations.:hammer::brick::dazzle::brick::zipit:

From what I've read, Lee has been disappointed by the scope of this project from the get go.

And are you calling Lee a DoM?:lol:

 

[jt04]

From what I've read, Lee has been disappointed by the scope of this project from the get go.

And are you calling Lee a DoM?:lol:

No :ROFLOL:

I was refering to the folks here that use the term. Like you.:lol:

Edit: I fixed the offending post.

 

[SirGoofy]

No :ROFLOL:

I was refering to the folks here that use the term. Like you.:lol:

Edit: I fixed the offending post.

I'm sorry, but everything I've heard about this thing makes it sound like a huge disappointment. If this refurb doesn't improve Space Mountain the way the HM one improved that ride, I'm calling it a HUGE disappointment.