Something is wrong, and I wish it was better

[WDW1974]

I stumbled across this thread this afternoon. Spent 20 minutes composing a typically provocative post decrying the EPCOT dumbing down, comparing it to our society ... and blaming everything from Hollywood to George Bush to 9/11 to Wall Street. naturally, our great technology kicked in and my internet died, crashing my computer and taking the post with it.

I'm not gonna repost, but I think this is phenomenal thread. I agree largely with the points made by the OP. And feel Rob and Randy added on it as well and added eloquent takes on the subject that are very in synch with my own beliefs..

I loved EPCOT Center in 1982. I have never felt such an awe-inspiring vibe as being at EC on Opening Day and in the months and years that followed. And while some attractions were certainly not masterpieces of entertainment, almost everything in the park was a masterpiece of showcasing what was possible then with techonology and what COULD be possible in the future.

it was all about limitless possibilities ... a very postive utopian future ... much more of a Star Trek type future than what the 1990s and 2000s brought.

Whether you like the attractions better now (I don't ... not even close) isn't really that important. It's the park portrays a much simpler, dumber and, yeah, more cynical view of the future.

Why go for a pavilion about the possibilities of space when you can ride an expensive simulator that will give you the same experience year in and year out? Why go to a seabase on floor of a future of amazing technology when you can travel in a clamshell with toons? Sure ... Soarin is a terrific addition (although I have issues with showing the same film as in Anaheim ... well, not really the same as in Anaheim they actually keep the prints free of UFO size dustbunnies), but it's still just a film ... not nearly as amazing as the technology showcased in the greenhouses next door.

Anyway, that's a small amount of what I had written ... but the thread is phenomenal. And it's a hopeful sign that there are a few young folks out there who do GET IT!

 

[RandySavage]

What EPCOT (Future World) had and then lost (and hopefully may one day find again) can be summarized in this one image:

That iconography - simple yet meaningful - encapsulated the framework and architecture (both physical and psychological) upon which all of Future World was built... a framework that made sense and connected each of the pavilions to the other and to the larger story that the Original Designers were trying to tell.

When this pavilion & symbol were introduced:

The first fracture appeared in EPCOT and it was soon clear that the new designers (imagineers) had lost sight or did not understand the DNA of Future World.

I am not saying 1987 Future World was perfect and should not have been upgraded over the years (I personally never cared much for Energy and Land Pavillions), but when you add or revamp a land without any care to the subconscious, transportative and inspiring nature of the place (as has been done extensively in Tomorrowlands the world over) fewer people are going to be drawn to it (that means less $, Disney Managers).

Theme parks are not about individual attractions so much as they are about 'place'. 'Place' has got to make sense to work. Future World no longer does that on any level. I hope one day someone with the power, will and understanding comes along to fix what was once one of the greatest built places in the world.

 

[Pumbas Nakasak]

What about those of us who just want to be entertained? I can understand the interest in developing and showcasing new technologies, but having never felt this nostalgia driven wonderment simply can’t identify with the sense of mourning being expressed here.

Do I want my understanding of the future to be shaped by US corporations? Definitely not, especially the glossy sanitised visions that Disney seem to feel they have to deliver to 8 year olds and their reality TV watching parents.

However I suggest that much of the sense of loss being expressed is just a reaction to finally realising that its all a pile of Ertha Kitt and you feel lied to. The scepticism and appreciation of what the future is really about isnt all folk dressed in tin foil and jet packs, its about companies making as much money as possible selling tat youve been told you need or your life is incomplete. So the truth is Epcot is what it always was meant to be a bloody big advert, its just that you dont like whats being advertised and lament your lost innocence. I bet if they stuck a couple of new attractions in all this faux sentimentality would bite the dust in a flash.

Boo hoo. Bend over da man is comin.

.

 

[MaxsDad]

I find it ironic that many people on these boards look back into the past, and wax nostalgic about a park that looked forward to the future, a future that is now their present. Reminds me of an old Bob Segar lyric:" Wish I didn't know now what I didn't know then".

My first Epcot experience was in 1999, so I don't have the perspective that some have. So my feelings are pretty much neutral on the matter. I enjoy what is there now, but the yesteryear stuff is of legend to me.

"Let us all remember that it all started with a mouse." (sic) Should it be any surprise that the company built upon a cartoon character, whose first property was anchored by Sleeping Beauty's Castle, once again a cartoon character from a fairy tale, is using them in today's culture? Heck, they invented this stuff!

Many seem to want to blame those in charge, but the fact is, we are all to blame. Everyone who has ever turned a turnstile at MK has said loud and clear that they want to be taken to a place of fantasy, adventure, and excitement. That's how we show what we want. Their job is not to uphold some snap shot in time, but to give us what we will pay for. If you want the Epcot of old to be brought back, when you go to AK, don't go to E:E, go to Rifiki's Planet watch and stare at the Vet as he/she treats animals. When you go to DHS, learn to draw Mickey Mouse over and over again. When at the MK, go ride Small World and CoP all day. But stop going to Epcot if you don't like how it's being run, or you are sending the wrong message. Go to your local library instead, or watch the hundreds of cable shows that feature the up and coming technology of our future world.

 

[DisneyNut2007]

OMFG! Not another "Yesterday was great, today is bad thread!

We have ENOUGH of them on this forum and elsewhere on the Internet! It gets more and more annoying every nano-second!

ENOUGH IS ENOUGH!!!

 

[Innoventions]

I find it ironic that many people on these boards look back into the past, and wax nostalgic about a park that looked forward to the future, a future that is now their present. Reminds me of an old Bob Segar lyric:" Wish I didn't know now what I didn't know then".

My first Epcot experience was in 1999, so I don't have the perspective that some have. So my feelings are pretty much neutral on the matter. I enjoy what is there now, but the yesteryear stuff is of legend to me.

"Let us all remember that it all started with a mouse." (sic) Should it be any surprise that the company built upon a cartoon character, whose first property was anchored by Sleeping Beauty's Castle, once again a cartoon character from a fairy tale, is using them in today's culture? Heck, they invented this stuff!

Many seem to want to blame those in charge, but the fact is, we are all to blame. Everyone who has ever turned a turnstile at MK has said loud and clear that they want to be taken to a place of fantasy, adventure, and excitement. That's how we show what we want. Their job is not to uphold some snap shot in time, but to give us what we will pay for. If you want the Epcot of old to be brought back, when you go to AK, don't go to E:E, go to Rifiki's Planet watch and stare at the Vet as he/she treats animals. When you go to DHS, learn to draw Mickey Mouse over and over again. When at the MK, go ride Small World and CoP all day. But stop going to Epcot if you don't like how it's being run, or you are sending the wrong message. Go to your local library instead, or watch the hundreds of cable shows that feature the up and coming technology of our future world.

I have to applaud this post. It is exactly how I feel :sohappy: Every word.

Sums it up perfectly.
Always have to look for a scapegoat

 

[EpcotServo]

but it's still just a film ... not nearly as amazing as the technology showcased in the greenhouses next door.

And we all know EPCOT never relied on film!

Just take a look at Spaceship Earth, Earth station, Communicore, Universe of Energy, Body Wars, Making of me, Cranium Command, Horizons, World of Motion, Journey Into Imagination, Magic Journeys/Captain Eo, Living with the Land, Symbosis, The Living Seas, El Rio Del Tiempo, Norway, Reflections of China, American Adventure, Impressions De France, and O Canada...No screens in those, right?




:lookaroun :lol:

 

[dweezil78]

Hi everyone,
I don't know if I'm completely oblivious or what seeing that I'm only 16, but for about a year now, I've been concerned. Something really does bother me, and makes me wonder about society today. I recently just finished reading a book called Fahrenheit 451, which was a book written by Ray Bradbury back in the 50s, I believe.

Great post. The irony (or some variation of it) is that Ray Bradbury was actually a consultant during the creation of EPCOT Center -- specifically Spaceship Earth. I wonder what he thinks of the park today. At least much of what he had a hand in is still there. Ray was fortunate to become very close with Walt in the end and two shared a very similar mindset. If you get a chance, be sure to watch the interview he did w/ Leonard Maltin on the Disney Treasures: Tomorrowland set. It's a must-see for any Disney parks fan!!!

 

[Legalos]

Great post. The irony (or some variation of it) is that Ray Bradbury was actually a consultant during the creation of EPCOT Center -- specifically Spaceship Earth. I wonder what he thinks of the park today. At least much of what he had a hand in is still there. Ray was fortunate to become very close with Walt in the end and two shared a very similar mindset. If you get a chance, be sure to watch the interview he did w/ Leonard Maltin on the Disney Treasures: Tomorrowland set. It's a must-see for any Disney parks fan!!!

Wow, that is amazing. I was aware that he helped create a Disney attraction, but I didn't know which one. I guess you really can learn something new everyday. Thanks.

 

[Rufus T Firefly]

I find it ironic that many people on these boards look back into the past, and wax nostalgic about a park that looked forward to the future, a future that is now their present. Reminds me of an old Bob Segar lyric:" Wish I didn't know now what I didn't know then".

My first Epcot experience was in 1999, so I don't have the perspective that some have. So my feelings are pretty much neutral on the matter. I enjoy what is there now, but the yesteryear stuff is of legend to me.

"Let us all remember that it all started with a mouse." (sic) Should it be any surprise that the company built upon a cartoon character, whose first property was anchored by Sleeping Beauty's Castle, once again a cartoon character from a fairy tale, is using them in today's culture? Heck, they invented this stuff!

Many seem to want to blame those in charge, but the fact is, we are all to blame. Everyone who has ever turned a turnstile at MK has said loud and clear that they want to be taken to a place of fantasy, adventure, and excitement. That's how we show what we want. Their job is not to uphold some snap shot in time, but to give us what we will pay for. If you want the Epcot of old to be brought back, when you go to AK, don't go to E:E, go to Rifiki's Planet watch and stare at the Vet as he/she treats animals. When you go to DHS, learn to draw Mickey Mouse over and over again. When at the MK, go ride Small World and CoP all day. But stop going to Epcot if you don't like how it's being run, or you are sending the wrong message. Go to your local library instead, or watch the hundreds of cable shows that feature the up and coming technology of our future world.

This thread is chock full of excellent posts. But, this is the best one so far. IMHO of course. :sohappy:

 

[RandySavage]

The problem isn't in the changing out of old slow-moving omnimovers or dated, serious-toned material in favor of new adrenalin-pumping rides or light infotainment. This is not a nostalgia issue. FW could have had every ride since opening changed out for something newer, faster, lighter and it would still work - IF the story (or any story) had been adhered to.

The problem is that Future World has lost its identity. Like all the Tomorrowlands (save HKDL), it has become a story-less dumping ground for any 'good' idea that some imagineer cooks up.

But throwing a bunch of good attractions together and calling it a theme park doesn't work if you sever all the subconscious threads and design elements that connect, transport and inspire.

Back when FW made sense this was its story: an optomistic techno-futurist's showcase of what tomorrow could bring as spearheaded by American corporate enterprise & ingenuity.

Each pavilion (with Imagination being the quirky exception) looked into the past, present and then explored the future of a particular field that is vital to human civilization's survival and flourishing: Communication, Energy, Technology, Transporation, Land Resources, Marine Resources - and each was connected to a bluechip American company that was paving the future in these areas. Future World of yore was an ambitious, expensive - and successful - achievement in design, execution & storytelling.

***

What is Future World's story today? What are the overarching principles and themes that connect the following?:

1. A scenic hanglider flight over present-day California.
2. A present-day car-testing facility.
3. A near-present space flight training facility.
4. A present-day dark ride based on Finding Nemo.
5. An energy attraction that begins with a present day game show.
6. An exploration of imagination that is set in a present day "institution."

Optomistic Techno-Futurism is no longer the chord that runs through FW (what made the park make sense from opening up until the first half of the 1990s). In fact, "future" of any kind has little to do with Future World.

I can understand that realistic techno-futurism is very difficult and expensive to keep up with (hence Tomorrowland's move to retro-future) but no one with an understanding of theme park design can argue that FW today isn't adrift.

It ought to be renamed, rethemed and reworked so that what is there and what is added makes some sort of thematic sense... this was a start in that direction:

 

[Figments Friend]

"Something is wrong, and I wish it was better"

sounds like a ballad.

I guess my thread would've been titled

"Once there was a way, to get back homeward"


Followed of course, by the thread:

"Boy, You're Gonna' Carry that Weight", etc.

Yay!! Beatles references!!

( runs off to watch George Harrison videos at link below....)

 

[H20Babie]

Quote:
Originally Posted by maskdesmith
I could imagine a kid wanting to be a marine biologist after being on the old Living Seas, but it seems like the best Epcot can manage to inspire these days is a new clownfish for your tank.


:lol: I was one of those kids, and came back from Epcot Center wanting to flood our basement to create my own marine habitat. Obviously, I didn't become one, but did the next best thing ... a teacher. Now, I look forward to my retirement dream of working at Epcot leading tours or educational programs.

The Epcot of the '80s floored me. I never thought it was boring, and I was 12 when I first visited Epcot in 1986. Horizons was my absolute favourite, along with the Living Seas. I always used to choose the underwater option! Now, I have my tattoo to remind me of "Epcot Centre".

 

[EPCOT Explorer]

It ought to be renamed, rethemed and reworked so that what is there and what is added makes some sort of thematic sense... this was a start in that direction:

No. Never. Not at all. :lol: Sorry, but I have to respectfully disagree and do so strongly.


Discoverland/World would further this descent in mediocrity and being generic. Ripping out the core of the park, changing the look, adding roller coasters and zany kinetics would not help. It would just draw the park to far away from it's original thematic sense, which even though it's diluted today, is still there.

What we have now is the perfect stepping stone, though. Refine Epcot'09. (Or rather Epcot'10, what's a few hours?) into a more cohesive and linked and thoughtful environment while retaining the heavy slant on thrills and entertainment, and you have the perfect park.

 

[_Scar]

Epcot should take the Discoveryland approach in either litterally discovering the world around you (I feel it accomplishes this now, but it could be expanded upon) or create the 'future that never was' that Discoveryland in Paris does.

 

[EPCOT Explorer]

Epcot should take the Discoveryland approach in either litterally discovering the world around you (I feel it accomplishes this now, but it could be expanded upon) or create the 'future that never was' that Discoveryland in Paris does.

That latter- No. Generic, and not the place for it. We have that in Tomorrowland, albeit in a different architectural style.



The former? Yes, please! :lol: Just make it a bit more Futureistic than modern and you are set. (What I said earlier...Make it more cohesive!)

 

[mousegeezer]

It's here

Legalos. You should read George Orwell's 1984. You'll crap your pants. Thank god there are still some of you out there that can read without having it done for them. Please hold the book to read it don't order it on Kindle. Then go and see the Carousel of Progress. Maybe you will be the one that gets us back to our roots.

 

[EPCOT Explorer]

Legalos. You should read George Orwell's 1984. You'll crap your pants. Thank god there are still some of you out there that can read without having it done for them. Please hold the book to read it don't order it on Kindle. Then go and see the Carousel of Progress. Maybe you will be the one that gets us back to our roots.

Fahrenheit 451, too. :lol: Awesome stuff.


Sad, frightening, but awesome.

 

[NCState]

Fahrenheit 451, too. :lol: Awesome stuff.


Sad, frightening, but awesome.

Fahrenheit 451 is coming on tonight on TCM 10:00 pm east coast. Not the type of movie that I watch but I thought I would pass this to everyone.:kiss:

 

[EPCOT Explorer]

Fahrenheit 451 is coming on tonight on TCM 10:00 pm east coast. Not the type of movie that I watch but I thought I would pass this to everyone.:kiss:

No cable here...and I am sure the book was better! :lol:


I would like to see it, though. Maybe a rental.