Something is wrong, and I wish it was better

[Pumbas Nakasak]

Very Zen of you.


-dave

Thats handy the screens just gon on mine and that is annoying more than boring.

 

[EPCOT Explorer]

Very Zen of you.

EPCOT is a thing, it in and of itself it is not boring or exciting, it simply is.

It is those attachments that your mind makes to these "things" that create the perception of boing or exciting (or fun, or sad, or infuriating, or joyfull, or any other emotion).

Many people have very strong attachement to things as boring. Many people also want to feel safe in todays society. Safety defined as the absence of risk. Be told what to think, what to wear, what to buy, what to listen to. Have others check your security, take care of your health, and program your life. Nice, warm, safe, and about as interesting as room temperature rice gruel.

Once you decouple the need for safety (real or perceived) from events (things) then all of sudden new events are reduced to just that - events. They are not scary, dangerous, boring, tedious, or otherwise unplesant - they just are.

-dave

I am almost reminded of Ben Franklin's quip on framing the Constitution.: They who would give up an essential liberty for temporary security, deserve neither liberty or security ...

Maybe a mental and intellectual parallel can be drawn here. I see it. :lol:

Generally, I think that Disney as a whole needs to stop throwing the whole barrel of marketing at the same group of people for the same thing. You can't throw EPCOT under the same categories as MK (or any other park, for that matter.) It has to be different. It has to capture a DIFFERENT demographic. Not a lesser one, by any means, but a different one. There's a great quote in Fjellman's ethnography on WDW, Vinyl Leaves that reads that "EPCOT Center was created for yuppies, and those who wanted a intellectual thrill....Magic Kingdom and earlier Disneyland was created for the nostalgic that is in us all, and those that just want a regular thrill."

This was written in 1989....while EPCOT Center was in it's prime, and I think it speaks volumes. When I get the book back out of the library, I'll see what else I can find.

 

[dreamfinder]

Did business change because of what society wanted? Or did society change because of what business wanted? It's kinda like the chicken and the egg. Society as a whole seems to be shifting towards the near future and instant gratification instead of the future future. So material goods aren't meant to last as long, and people always want the latest and greatest. Now is this because people were simply no longer happy with what they had? Or because companies convinced people that what they had would no longer make them happy?
At the same time, there does seem to be a growing movement to thinking about long term consequences, and this might even be reflected in WDW. People are starting to switch towards products that will last longer, and are better for society. WDW seems (we hope) to be switching back towards attractions that are built on long lasting concepts like show and story, instead of flash. We can see how long flash lasted with M:S. It was popular for a while, but lines aren't that long any more anytime I have gone.

 

[Pumbas Nakasak]

Hooraahhhhh for the weak minded, marketing and advertising, it pays for my trips.

 

[Master Yoda]

Did business change because of what society wanted? Or did society change because of what business wanted? It's kinda like the chicken and the egg. Society as a whole seems to be shifting towards the near future and instant gratification instead of the future future. So material goods aren't meant to last as long, and people always want the latest and greatest. Now is this because people were simply no longer happy with what they had? Or because companies convinced people that what they had would no longer make them happy?
At the same time, there does seem to be a growing movement to thinking about long term consequences, and this might even be reflected in WDW. People are starting to switch towards products that will last longer, and are better for society. WDW seems (we hope) to be switching back towards attractions that are built on long lasting concepts like show and story, instead of flash. We can see how long flash lasted with M:S. It was popular for a while, but lines aren't that long any more anytime I have gone.

At least with the chicken and the egg question we can come to a logical answerer. Marketing on the other hand is much more complex. When you look at high dollar items such as cars, houses and major appliances the trend does seem to be switching to longevity, but electronics and entertainment are moving more and more toward almost disposable technology. Companies are essentially releasing BETA and pre-BETA technology because people want the latest and greatest right now. The CRT tube was the dominate display technology for decades but now we have gone from plasma to LCD to LED in slightly more than a decade. There is a new revolution in computer video cards nearly every 4 to 6 months and if your cell phone is over a year old it is a dinosaur. Special effects in movies have taken priority over story for years and little seems to be changing in that realm.

Disney will follow the cash. If that means classic attractions they will do it but more than likely short attention span, flash in the pan, mindless attractions will continue to be what the masses want. I hope I am wrong but I am not holding my breath.

 

[EPCOT Explorer]

At least with the chicken and the egg question we can come to a logical answerer. Marketing on the other hand is much more complex. When you look at high dollar items such as cars, houses and major appliances the trend does seem to be switching to longevity, but electronics and entertainment are moving more and more toward almost disposable technology. Companies are essentially releasing BETA and pre-BETA technology because people want the latest and greatest right now. The CRT tube was the dominate display technology for decades but now we have gone from plasma to LCD to LED in slightly more than a decade. There is a new revolution in computer video cards nearly every 4 to 6 months and if your cell phone is over a year old it is a dinosaur. Special effects in movies have taken priority over story for years and little seems to be changing in that realm.

Disney will follow the cash. If that means classic attractions they will do it but more than likely short attention span, flash in the pan, mindless attractions will continue to be what the masses want. I hope I am wrong but I am not holding my breath.

I agree, though I do hope and foresee more of a return to "classic" venues as the masses get tired of THIS type of attraction. Leads me to believe that these things are cyclical.

 

[Sneezy62]

Hi everyone,
I don't know if I'm completely oblivious or what seeing that I'm only 16, but for about a year now, I've been concerned. Something really does bother me, and makes me wonder about society today. I recently just finished reading a book called Fahrenheit 451, which was a book written by Ray Bradbury back in the 50s, I believe. The book showcases a strange society that resembles the one of today, in a very discomforting way; censorship, dumbing down of things, things becoming generic, shortage of quality in things, and certain technological advancements etc.. Reading this book, going to Epcot, and seeing vintage videos of EPCOT center on youtube, has got me really thinking, to the point where I get real upset :brick:. What if I say, maybe Disney didn't change EPCOT center all by itself, maybe society helped changed it. Today a lot kids my age need things to be loud, flashy, hip hoppy, fast, and profanity filled for it to be considered cool or entertaining. EPCOT had to change, but couldn't Disney do better? I mean by all means I enjoy Mission: Space, and Test Track, but couldn't they keep some of the more inspirational EPCOT rides like Horizons? Rides like that could of help inspire many generations of people. It would be nice to see Mission: Space and Horizons up and running simultaneously. That would've been an improvement. EPCOT could be better easily. I live in Orlando, and I have annual passes to all the major theme parks, and I can tell you, that Epcot has great potential to be the best to more locals my age (It's already to me, but that's because I know EPCOT). This park means far too much, and Disney doesn't seem to realize it's potential, and it hurts. I understand that society is changing, and Disney needs to change the park, but please don't stray from the park's original message. Please take better care of the dedication to Walt's last dream. Man words can't describe, how I care for Epcot, and how it saddens me deeply to see some of the things that I see there today. It kills me inside every time I see those videos of old Epcot and hear about it's ambitious original duty as a theme park, and seeing all those concept arts. I respect it's change but I wish Disney would do better with these changes in many aspects (The rides, the design and look of future world today etc.). It's truly becoming hard for me to believe that a concept like EPCOT center was created by the same company that broadcasts Hannah Montana, and now the company that broadcasts that crap is slowly depleting Epcot's quality and purpose, instead of harmonizing with today's new thrills and yesterday's inspirational EPCOT.

There is a reason that certain literature is called timeless.:animwink: Don't let the world or the company that runs the world :lookaroun get you down. Look forward with optimism and an eye to improving yourself and your future, that's the best way to improve everyone else's including Disney's. You are off to a great start.

 

[Master Yoda]

I agree, though I do hope and foresee more of a return to "classic" venues as the masses get tired of THIS type of attraction. Leads me to believe that these things are cyclical.

Most things are as people tend to forget history. We had big gas guzzlers in the 70's and we were hit with a gas crunch and we went to little fuel efficient cars. Time went on and we forgot about the lessons learned in the 70's and began building SUV's that got 2 miles to the gallon then BAM! another gas crunch. People forgot what diseases like polio and measles were like and thought we don't need vacines anymore and now kids are again dying from things like whooping cough and measles. Hopefully when The Little Mermaid opens up in FL people will remember how cool these E-ticket dark rides can be and will call for more of them to be built.

 

[Pumbas Nakasak]

We can but hope, even if it does go against my cynical nature. :animwink:

 

[Phonedave]

Thats handy the screens just gon on mine and that is annoying more than boring.

Ah, but the event of the screen being gone is just that - the screen is gone.

It itself carries no preconceived intrinsic value of boring or annoying. It is simply an event.

You (your brain) projects the qualities of boring or annoying onto the event of the screen being gone. Neither of which has any effect on the screen itself. So, why project these qualitites in the first place ?

Heh, the screen is sort of like this post

-dave

 

[Master Yoda]

Ah, but the event of the screen being gone is just that - the screen is gone.

It itself carries no preconceived intrinsic value of boring or annoying. It is simply an event.

You (your brain) projects the qualities of boring or annoying onto the event of the screen being gone. Neither of which has any effect on the screen itself. So, why project these qualitites in the first place ?

Heh, the screen is sort of like this post

-dave

I can see the book now....The Tao of pre-90's Epcot

 

[Andy Walker]

Wise words, Legalos

 

[EPCOT Explorer]

I can see the book now....The Tao of pre-90's Epcot

I would SO read that...:lol:

 

[DRC68]

It's truly heart-breaking, but the only inspiration/ideal that Epcot in the year '09 is attempting to send guests is "Buy more merch" hence all the tie-ins on every attraction.

Same reason, over the past several years, the philosophy of 'every movie gets a ride and every ride gets a movie'. Did the HM need a movie? No. does every character need to be represented on a ride? No.

Any day now, we'll hear the announcement that Tomorrowland Speedway is going to be updated to 'Cars'.

 

[EPCOT Explorer]

It's truly heart-breaking, but the only inspiration/ideal that Epcot in the year '09 is attempting to send guests is "Buy more merch" hence all the tie-ins on every attraction.

Same reason, over the past several years, the philosophy of 'every movie gets a ride and every ride gets a movie'. Did the HM need a movie? No. does every character need to be represented on a ride? No.

Any day now, we'll hear the announcement that Tomorrowland Speedway is going to be updated to 'Cars'.

Doubt that...:lol: Even they have to admit, it does not fit.


I just want the Speedway gone...:lookaroun

 

[tirian]

i posted this on here a few years back.... and its fitting for a repost....
------------------------------------------------------------------------



My response:

Wow, see what the product of our jaded, soulless, aimless society is... witness it in its full glory, for this is why the "future" and died.

Walt Disney was the last great futurist. EPCOT in it's original non-theme park form, was a dream/obsession of Walt's... a Utopian society on the bleeding edge of technology with all of its citizens working towards the betterment of the human condition. A city of tomorrow... today.

First though, lets look back at Disneyland. Do you think Walt made Disneyland for the sole purpose of making money? If he did, he would never have built it. Disneyland was first and foremost a realization of walt's own obsessions. It was his Neverland. It was a place where he could have, and share, his idealized america, his vision of the past, his visions of the future, and the flights of fancy that entertained his mind.... and he could drive a train. If he made it to make money he would be like most of Todays Disney upper brass and only go to the parks when forced... not have an apartment there, not buy ice cream for the kids... or even take a few hours working the ice cream cart just so he could see smiles on kids faces. If Disneyland would have been designed to "make money" it would have failed miserably. Did Walt hope it made money, yes... if for nothing else to prove his critics wrong. More importantly though it helped to fund bigger dreams.

The Florida Project was the culmination of those dreams. It was Walt's perfect Utopian (some would say proto-fascist) vision. However... after Walt died, no one knew, no one had the passion to complete those dreams... So, they did the next best thing in their minds... They took the theme park concept and worked it into the EPCOT concept. EPCOT was a theme park that would reflect those Utopian dreams, it would progress the idea of people working together for a better future, rather than resigning themselves to annihilation. EPCOT was intended to teach, and hope that when you left, you took part of that dream with you.

I grew up in central Florida... I grew up at Walt Disney World... but more importantly, much of my dreams were forged at EPCOT. I loved EPCOT, i used to LOVE Horizons, Universe of Energy, World of Motion, The Living Seas, The Land, Imagination... Spaceship Earth... and Yes... Mexico was my favorite thing in world showcase till Maelstrom (being of Norwegian Heritage)... My family ended up going to EPCOT more than the MK when i was groeing up,because i loved it. I used to look forward to my yearly school field trips to EPCOT, even though I was there almost every weekend anyway.. because i got to see different things, i got to share my love with my fellow students...

Well i moved off to Los Angeles... and didn't get to visit EPCOT for a long time....

I returned to Florida this year for one year to handle family issues, and the first thing i did was head to EPCOT ... but it was gone. It was replaced by Epcot. Gone were those dreams... with the exception of SSE... Replaced by Ellen, Replaced by Mission: Space (which while still having a futurist element... lacks the greater part of a soul.. especially in comparison to that which it replaced), Replaced by Test Track (which teaches us nothing about the future, and instead is a giant advertisment for todays cars), Replaced by Nemo (and not the Jules Verne one...and god do i miss the movie from the living seas ), Replaced by Eric Idle... The Land changes i dont mind too much, though i miss the boat ride having a CM. Even SSE is in a state where it is missing half of itself...

I cried. I turned to my wife and said... what happened.

and i think that article "A Happy Accident" sums up my thoughts pretty well... It happened because of you.

It happened because people have no attention spans anymore. It happened because cynicism replaced idealism. It happened because nihilism replaced futurism. When I was a kid we dreamed of flying cars still... todays kid's vision of the future is less Jetson's/Metropolis and more Terminator/Mad Max. It is less Jules Verne and Ray Bradbury and more... well apocalyptic. They are taught there IS NO FUTURE!!! Weather it be Christian Fundamentalist Evangelicals telling them "Jesus is coming, you don't need a future beyond that its the end times" or Mass Media telling them the world is going to end by Nuclear Holocaust, Environmental Disaster, Meteor Strike, ETC... ALL THEY HEAR IS "THIS IS THE END." Why would you dream for a future when all you hear is it isn't coming. Hell, we put man on the moon... then spent 25 years not going out of orbit... now kids are told we never landed on the moon on network TV specials.

Your cynicism and jaded response is noted ahead of time.

EPCOT died, not because it was a failure...

but because we are.

I agree with everything except this. As a Christian, I don't know of any mainstream Christian groups telling people to sit on their butts and wait for the world to end; the catastrophic nuclear holocaust scenario has been an issue since WWII, and the environmental problems are all predicted to take place in a few hundred years, not tomorrow. You're oversimplifying things.

IMO, these are four main reasons people have lost their faith in tomorrow.

1. Technology changes so rapidly, people have come to expect it, and theme parks dedicated to the latest tech don't impress the public anymore. There's also the "obsolete dread" factor, in which consumers have learned that every time technology improves, their hard-earned electronics are nothing more than expensive paperweights.

2. The 9/11 attacks and other terrorism scares have taught us we're not invincible and tomorrow is not necessarily sunny.

3. Except for the Renaissance and the 1950s Nuclear Craze, pop culture has always swept education aside in favor of entertainment, but now it's mindless entertainment. At least in the past, pop culture often had artistic value; now it's purely corporate. Every mainstream band looks and sounds the same. Every store sells the same fashions. Every blockbuster movie recycles one of three similar plots (yes, even the beloved "Avatar"); and the biggest commercial successes are often the most mindless, dumbed-down scripts in Hollywood.

4. Much of society simply isn't interested in tomorrow. The general populace expects everything but their personal lives to be decided by lawmakers, and people who actually get involved in shaping the world around them are labeled either Crazy Right-Wingers or Crazy Liberal-Nutcases. The public is generally content to let things roll along as usual until something major—like our current economic breakdown—happens; then everybody just blames each other. (Look at the wildly varying opinions on these boards.)

Even though terrorism and economic problems contributed to the current lack of interest in tomorrow, we can't blame them exclusively. First, the Great Depression and World War II took place right before the technological boom and optimism of the 50s. Secondly, the S-xual Revolution and Vietnam came before the tech boom and optimism of the 70s and 80s. I personally think this is a societal mess created more by our laissez faire attitude than anything else. (By laissez faire, I mean a lifestyle, not capitalism.)

How does this affect Epcot?

Despite everything I've said about why "tomorrow" isn't a golden idea in our public mind anymore, I don't think we should only blame society. EPCOT Center was supposed to constantly change; it's not a museum. The problem is that Disney lost EPCOT's purpose in the changes.

EPCOT Center wasn't made up of Horizons, World of Motion, or the original Journey into Imagination. It was an idea and a way of looking at the world. There's no reason Mission Space and Test Track can't have the same EPCOT Center ideals, except the people building the attractions assumed everything from EPCOT would bore the public. The optimism was lost, the large-scale pavilions were lost, the sense of purpose was lost. A temporary cardboard-cutout wand was left in place to represent the new "magical" Epcot that didn't require too much thinking, one that fit better into pop culture. Management forgot about Epcot's demographic and completely disregarded the E.P.C.O.T. ideals.

A few improvements have been made lately; unfortunately, they've been offset by drastic failures, like the SSE descent and LoW/holiday cuts. Some fanboys defend Disney management by saying Epcot is a business, not a golden dream. Of course Disney built Epcot to make money; otherwise, it couldn't operate. But for about a decade the place also had a sense of purpose. Maybe we'll see that return. There's always tomorrow.

 

[tirian]

//// forum police ////

This should probably be moved to "General Discussion" so we can continue to—well—discuss.

 

[EPCOT Explorer]

I agree with everything except this. As a Christian, I don't know of any mainstream Christian groups telling people to sit on their butts and wait for the world to end; and the catastrophic nuclear/holocaust/environmental problems are all predicted to take place in a few hundred years, not tomorrow. You're oversimplifying things.

IMO, these are four main reasons people have lost their faith in tomorrow.

1. Technology changes so rapidly, people have come to expect it, and theme parks dedicated to the latest tech don't impress the public anymore. There's also the "obsolete dread" factor, in which consumers have learned that every time technology improves, their hard-earned electronics are nothing more than expensive paperweights.

2. The 9/11 attacks and other terrorism scares have taught us we're not invincible and tomorrow is not necessarily sunny.

3. Except for the Renaissance and the 1950s Nuclear Craze, pop culture has always swept education aside in favor of entertainment, but now it's mindless entertainment. At least in the past, pop culture often had artistic value; now it's purely corporate. Every mainstream band looks and sounds the same. Every store sells the same fashions. Every blockbuster movie recycles one of three similar plots (yes, even the beloved "Avatar"); and the biggest commercial successes are often the most mindless, dumbed-down scripts in Hollywood.

4. Much of society simply isn't interested in tomorrow. The general populace expects everything but their personal lives to be decided by lawmakers, and people who actually get involved in shaping the world around them are labeled either Crazy Right-Wingers or Crazy Liberal-Nutcases. The public is generally content to let things roll along as usual until something major—like our current economic breakdown—happens; then everybody just blames each other. (Look at the wildly varying opinions on these boards.)

Even though terrorism and economic problems contributed to the current lack of interest in tomorrow, we can't blame them exclusively. First, the Great Depression and World War II took place right before the technological boom and optimism of the 50s. Secondly, the S-xual Revolution and Vietnam came before the tech boom and optimism of the 70s and 80s. I personally think this is a societal mess created more by our laissez faire attitude than anything else. (By laissez faire, I mean a lifestyle, not capitalism.)

How does this affect Epcot?

First, after everything I've said about why "tomorrow" isn't a golden idea in our public mind anymore, I don't think we should only blame society. EPCOT Center was supposed to constantly change; it's not a museum. The problem is that Disney lost EPCOT's purpose in the changes.

EPCOT Center wasn't made up of Horizons, World of Motion, or the original Journey into Imagination. It was an idea and a way of looking at the world. There's no reason Mission Space and Test Track can't have the same EPCOT Center ideals, except the people building the attractions assumed everything from EPCOT would bore the public. The optimism was lost, the large-scale pavilions were lost, the sense of purpose was lost. A temporary cardboard-cutout wand was left in place to represent the new "magical" Epcot that didn't require too much thinking, one that fit better into pop culture. Management forgot about Epcot's demographic and completely disregarded the E.P.C.O.T. ideals.

A few improvements have been made lately; unfortunately, they've been offset by drastic failures, like the SSE descent and LoW/holiday cuts. Some fanboys defend Disney management by saying Epcot is a business, not a golden dream. Of course Disney built Epcot to make money; otherwise, it couldn't operate. But for about a decade the place also had a sense of purpose. Maybe we'll see that return. There's always tomorrow.

That made my smile. A lot. Great post, tirian.

 

[tirian]

Ah, but the event of the screen being gone is just that - the screen is gone.

It itself carries no preconceived intrinsic value of boring or annoying. It is simply an event.

You (your brain) projects the qualities of boring or annoying onto the event of the screen being gone. Neither of which has any effect on the screen itself. So, why project these qualitites in the first place ?

Heh, the screen is sort of like this post

-dave

Plus, with HDTV and kick-butt home theater systems available, and the motion-sensitive Wii, and the ability to put your head into any number of cartoons on the Internet (dancing elves), what's so special about the screen-based attractions at WDW?

Nothing, unless there's a twist. Turtle Talk and MLF react in real time (even though Monsters, Inc. recycles the same jokes at every show). TSMM has physical motion; it's practically a laterally moving simulator.

Screens on the SSE descent with a Flash movie and a clipped head = epic fail. *yawn.* I can do that in five minutes at home. I don't need "some future-based technology, which [they] happen to know about."

EDIT: And 3D systems are now available in theaters, with home versions coming out over the next five years. Disney needs to do what they've always done best—create truly immersive experiences no one else, including Universal, can replicate.

 

[sublimesting]

Hi everyone,
I don't know if I'm completely oblivious or what seeing that I'm only 16, but for about a year now, I've been concerned. Something really does bother me, and makes me wonder about society today. I recently just finished reading a book called Fahrenheit 451, which was a book written by Ray Bradbury back in the 50s, I believe. The book showcases a strange society that resembles the one of today, in a very discomforting way; censorship, dumbing down of things, things becoming generic, shortage of quality in things, and certain technological advancements etc.. Reading this book, going to Epcot, and seeing vintage videos of EPCOT center on youtube, has got me really thinking, to the point where I get real upset :brick:. What if I say, maybe Disney didn't change EPCOT center all by itself, maybe society helped changed it. Today a lot kids my age need things to be loud, flashy, hip hoppy, fast, and profanity filled for it to be considered cool or entertaining. EPCOT had to change, but couldn't Disney do better? I mean by all means I enjoy Mission: Space, and Test Track, but couldn't they keep some of the more inspirational EPCOT rides like Horizons? Rides like that could of help inspire many generations of people. It would be nice to see Mission: Space and Horizons up and running simultaneously. That would've been an improvement. EPCOT could be better easily. I live in Orlando, and I have annual passes to all the major theme parks, and I can tell you, that Epcot has great potential to be the best to more locals my age (It's already to me, but that's because I know EPCOT). This park means far too much, and Disney doesn't seem to realize it's potential, and it hurts. I understand that society is changing, and Disney needs to change the park, but please don't stray from the park's original message. Please take better care of the dedication to Walt's last dream. Man words can't describe, how I care for Epcot, and how it saddens me deeply to see some of the things that I see there today. It kills me inside every time I see those videos of old Epcot and hear about it's ambitious original duty as a theme park, and seeing all those concept arts. I respect it's change but I wish Disney would do better with these changes in many aspects (The rides, the design and look of future world today etc.). It's truly becoming hard for me to believe that a concept like EPCOT center was created by the same company that broadcasts Hannah Montana, and now the company that broadcasts that crap is slowly depleting Epcot's quality and purpose, instead of harmonizing with today's new thrills and yesterday's inspirational EPCOT.

That's why I bought a Toyota.
:wave: