Soarin' and The Land changes - what is your opinion?

[DMC-12]

Very good research there. I think the old Land design was a very constricting space down on the ground floor. Between having to crawl between tables and little stools and having big bulky umbrellas at almost every table, the old space was anything but "boundless."

On a side note, the seats look MUCH more comfortable than those little stools.

I agree with ya MicBat.... I have to admit.. the old land reminded me of our old den in our old house in the late 70's - early 80's... very dark... the dark wood railings reminded me of the paneling...lol It was kinda musty and bland.... etc. :lol:


But this... this to me IMO.. is very bright, modern, & alive!!!! Its NOT the depressing old den in the 80's, :lol:

The light in the new land with the new paint scheme has increased ten fold it seems!

Change happens. :wave:

 

[mousermerf]

How can something have "huge expanses of antiseptic white and gray" while at the same time "The open, free feeling of the floor has been lost."

Just curious.

The white/grey/(and btw - blue tone too but hard to see in most pictures) is presented as a contrast. By being a muted tone, the emphasis is on the shape and its content. This is not some accident but an artistic choice as doing so is a popular modern convention - seen as a way to make form interesting to the eye and force the audience to contemplate the shape.

The seating areas are abstract art interpetations of fields seen from above - perhaps from a very high hand glider. Actually, very reminiscent of aboriginal art (they paint/view things from the "overhead" view) and especially their landscapes. Those patches of carpet actually classified in art as "landscape" with, in my opinion, nifty looking frames.

The same contrast extends to the green tree pillars. They are varying heights, thicknesses, numbers of panels. The emphasis is on the form.

In short - the progression of the pavillion, as intended because of how the Epcot book describes the original being viewed in sequence similiarly:

You enter the space, viewing the earth from the farthest descernable distance as it floats in space, manipulated by the sun to create the seasons. You can enter on this level to see the big pictures in the Circle of Life (whose intended exit is on the bottom floor btw...) You look down and closer and you can see no longer just blurred land masses but rather patterns and textures, the richness of the land. You move down into the lower tier and you pass the canopy (the trees and abstract cloud-lights) and you can explore the Land in detail - first by Soarin' over the scenic vistas, smelling the orange blossoms in the air. Then you get an closer look at the world's enviroments and how we are Living with the Land. Looking to go deeper still? You can return to delve Behind the Seeds for that tour you set up as you exitted Soarin' - as it is now prominently featured (it used to not even have signs and was run out of a register at the old shop haphazardly) and then you can taste the fruits of such labor at Sunshine Seasons.

So, inward you go, level by level.

 

[MiklCraw4d]

Hehe...

ooh ooh! Me! Me! (just kidding - I used to tell guests this all the time). The SUnshine Seasons Food Fair (so technically not the original, but close enough) represented a forest floor basically. You were under the sun (represented by the windows and balloons which had the "sun" symbolized all over them). The umbrellas represented individual suns themselves (why they were lighted). The tables were to represent the plants and fungi that gave us food (hence why stools instead of chairs because they looked more mushroom like, so more earthy). Then the carpeting represented the fallen leaves on the floor that lead into the cycle. The fountain was the center of the pavilion because the whole system basically requires the interaction of things with light and water (so where light and water met). The design represented abstractly leaf and seed shapes since that powered the system of photosynthesis, which sustains life on this planet. The music, finally, represented the cycle of sun and moon (titles) that also keep the system going.

As a whole, the entire thing was based on cycles that keep The Land operating.

Awesome Great answer!

As for the fountain, I do think it added some vitality to the area. And I loved the theming of the music. What's the new loop in the area? I really digged the sun/moon loop a lot.

In my post above I did neglect to mention the metal/wire railings. Definitely an odd choice, I think. It's strange that the entrance to Soarin, with the wood tones, is far more earthy than the entrance to the pavilion itself.

And bring that logo back!

mc

 

[mousermerf]

I don't know if anyone remembers - but i'm fairly certain the original railing did not have the plexi-glass that the last version had. This was put in for safety as the railing had wide gaps (and, btw, was metal with a wood top). That got dirty, yuckey, and was impossible to clean.

Another option for wood railing, while keeping safety in mind, would be thick heavey wood railing that would be completely impossible to see through and would make the place feel heavey and bloated with an actual wall between everything.

The new version is the compromise. It is safe, it is open, and it is colored to be as unintrusive as possible.

 

[MiklCraw4d]

How can something have "huge expanses of antiseptic white and gray" while at the same time "The open, free feeling of the floor has been lost."

I was thinking more of the color scheme 'upstairs' when I spoke of the antiseptic feeling. I haven't seen many pictures taken from the lower level so I can't really comment on its wall scheme downstairs.

The open feeling I think has been lost by the fencing in of the eating areas downstairs. I understand that this might be necessary with the increased crowd flow to the pavilion, but I think this might have been worked around in a way that would give a greater feeling of flow to the area. It also seems to encroach too far into the queue area of the boat ride, and I think they might have organized things to better increase crowd flow in that direction. We don't want people riding Soarin without riding the boat, do we?

Still, I'll have to experience it in person to see how it all lays out and how effectively it works. I guess that means the sacrifice of having to go down there and visit EPCOT. Darn it.

 

[mousermerf]

I was thinking more of the color scheme 'upstairs' when I spoke of the antiseptic feeling. I haven't seen many pictures taken from the lower level so I can't really comment on its wall scheme downstairs.

Ah, thought you were talking about the ground level's carpet. It is mostly an off-white with swatches of blue (it's not all 1 color but rather muted patchwork) and then the yellow i thought refered to the trash recepticles being mostly yellow/orange.

I still think the pavillion looks more open and airy then before.

 

[MiklCraw4d]

A few things

I don't think they carried that message all that well, since so many people failed to pick up on it. It's not a big loss as far as I'm concerned.

First I want to compliment Buzzy989 on a fantastic post as to the thematic implications of The Land's original design. You phrased it exactly as I would, had I an ounce of the eloquence.

As to the comment above, I don't think it's a matter of whether one picks up on these concepts consciously. While it's a fun thing to think about for those of us who are really into the Imagineering process, I don't think WDI ever expects the casual guest to pick up on these things and mull over them. Rather, it's a process of assimilation and unconscious processing that's key to creating a true Disney experience.

This is very closely related to the complaints I've had with the late Eisner-Pressler era of theme park Imagineering. They never designed for anything past an absolute literal experience. DCA is an example of this. A theme park consisting of a roller coaster, a spinner ride, a movie feature... exactly what an average person would think of if asked what they're looking for in a theme park experience. Did it meet those absolutely basic expectations? Sure. But it's not the Disney experience.

Disney himself never focus-grouped his ideas for what the public would enjoy. He had an innate sense of what is pleasing. If, in 1955, you went around and asked people what they'd like to see in a theme park, odds are they wouldn't have specified a highly themed environment with rides that told real stories. There would have been no Jungle Cruise, no Pirates, no Mansion.

The Imagineers were able to continue this sense of place-creation after Walt's death with the creation of EPCOT and rides like Splash Mountain.

What Walt knew, and conveyed to his Imagineers, was the crucial skill of creating places that affect people on almost primal levels. There's almost an aspect of collective unconscious in the ways they are able to use space, design, and color to convey meaning and feeling in a completely non-intellectual way.

We all think of this crap because we're fanatics and spend hours on message boards poring over photos. But Joe Schmoe and his kids don't. They are, however, affected by the environments in very specific ways that that's why Disney has the cachet it does. WDI knows how to comfort or stimulate guests depending on the environment and the visual and audio cues much like Buzzy989 described. The end result is that millions of people love the Disney experience, but most have probably never even stopped to think why.

There was a huge amount of institutional knowledge in these areas at WDI that had been accumulated over the years and I fear that it has been lost in the Eisner-Pressler purges.

I know this is a ramble but it's three in the morning so cut me some slack. It's just a long way of saying that even if people aren't thinking of these things semantically on a conscious level doesn't mean that they aren't affected. I just wonder how the busier, less comforting environment of The Land will change the effect on visitors.

mc

 

[MiklCraw4d]

Learning, EPCOT

Ya know what I hate...the notion that the whole pavillion suffers because there is no strong emphasis on "symbiosis".
I couldn't care less about symbiosis.
I don't want to "learn" at Epcot.
I don't want to be lectured to.

I just want to be entertained...and the new design, along with the addition of Soarin, delivers on that better than the "old Land" did.

But that's just me.....

The mission of EPCOT is to educate and enlighten in an entertaining way. I don't think there's anything wrong with 'learning' anything; certainly not worth rolling your eyes at. As a kid back in the 80's, I learned a great deal from EPCOT and it made me think about a lot of concepts and 'big' ideas that I would never have encountered at that way at that point in my life. It took complex ideas and made them interesting, and gave you ways to experience them that were exciting.

If you remove the large-scale concepts and aspirations to inform, what then is the point of EPCOT? Especially of Future World? Just some kickin' thrill rides with unrelated adventurous themes?

You can do that anywhere. What makes EPCOT special is just that it is the sort of place that would use exciting or interesting experiences that help average people relate to concepts such as symbiosis. It's the whole point of the park. It's also why I think most of the additions since 1994 have been failures thematically. Future World has completely lost its identity and cohesive concepts.

Information doesn't have to be boring. I have high hopes that the new Soarin film will explore some of those ecologial concepts that are currently missing, and touch more upon the themes the pavilion was built for.


mc

 

[MiklCraw4d]

Thanks

Thank you for your post Michael. Instead of just saying you hate the new refurbishment to the Land pavillion, you've laid out your excellent detailed critique for why you don't like it. Excellent post. :wave:

Cheers... There's a little bit too much brinksmanship and eye-rolling at each other going on from time to time for my tastes. The truth is, most things anymore are a mixed bag (except for Journey into YOUR Imagination and Disney Studios Paris) so you have to appreciate the good and pick your battles otherwise

 

[dxwwf3]

Then, Grizz posted an opinion article early this week. So, of course it was biased. Its an OPINION article!

:sohappy:

That's what I was thinking. Excellent post, Gregory. I think alot of people are overreacting here. Everyone is entitled to their opinion.........I think :lookaroun

 

[General Grizz]

I guess that means the sacrifice of having to go down there and visit EPCOT. Darn it.

Yeah, what a shame, huh? :lol:

It's great to see you over here, Mr. "Craw4d."

 

[wannab@dis]

SNIPPETS...

We have the site so that you can read our opinions- we are not here to force our opinions on you.

In fact, we want you to have your own opinions...

we will present both sides...

I also like to read peoples opinions...

I will NEVER criticize someone for their opinions on these boards...

I would never criticize someone. And I would NEVER turn it into a personal attack.

Unfortunately, others in your circle don't feel the same as you. I've received neg reps from your group for giving my opinion on this subject and they don't believe in their cause enough to even sign it.

You're going to get a backlash off this subject because it's now apparent that the vast majority of people don't agree with your opinion of attacking every detail. This rehab of the Land has been thrashed over for more than a year and every bit of the writing by the troops has been negative. You couldn't wait until it was done to get negative and in my opinion would not have been happy no matter what was done. If I have that opinion, then others will, and your message will suffer.

Try to be optimistic, positive and leave the small things alone. You're losing credibility by harping about exposed air vents or ceiling grids. Get back to seasonal operations and maintenance type issues. Talk about good CM's that bring magic to the guests. Do articles with a positive thesis, but point out problems as supporting material.

 

[ThreeCircles]

This rehab of the Land has been thrashed over for more than a year and every bit of the writing by the troops has been negative. You couldn't wait until it was done to get negative and in my opinion would not have been happy no matter what was done. If I have that opinion, then others will, and your message will suffer.

I tend to agree. And it's not just with the subject of The Land rehab. It seems like the D-Troops site was set up for no other reason than to complain about everything Disney. Just like Mice Age, Mouse Planet, and Jim Hill.

While I think that Disney has a lot of room for improvement (as does anything and everything, right?) I still believe they are a top notch company. The whole concept that Disney was at some point "perfect" and did no wrong and is now a garbage company seems a bit, well, silly. :lol:

And I'm not suggesting that D-Troops doesn't have a right to "report" on the things that they do. Not at all. But, I think that anyone visiting that site needs to understand that they are most certainly biased. They need negative reports to fulfill their "mission", do they not? They have an angle, I guess is all I'm trying to say.

 

[speck76]

The mission of EPCOT is to educate and enlighten in an entertaining way. I don't think there's anything wrong with 'learning' anything; certainly not worth rolling your eyes at. As a kid back in the 80's, I learned a great deal from EPCOT and it made me think about a lot of concepts and 'big' ideas that I would never have encountered at that way at that point in my life. It took complex ideas and made them interesting, and gave you ways to experience them that were exciting.
mc

It is time to move on from 25 years ago.

The purpose of Epcot has changed....it had to.

The Epcot of 25 years ago did not appeal to the average visitor to Orlando once new competition was built. Vacationers do not want to be educated and inspired....if they did, they would vacation to Washington DC, and visit the Smithsonian.

 

[ogryn]

...and to add to that, when I was touting a trip to Orlando to a friend of my age, I told him that we had to visit Epcot, and he said "Really? Other people I've spoken to about it said it was the most boring park in Orlando"

I then had to explain all about it, and put a positive spin on things. Epcot needs to move on, just to combat that image, and this rehab is a good start.

 

[speck76]

...and to add to that, when I was touting a trip to Orlando to a friend of my age, I told him that we had to visit Epcot, and he said "Really? Other people I've spoken to about it said it was the most boring park in Orlando"

I then had to explain all about it, and put a positive spin on things. Epcot needs to move on, just to combat that image, and this rehab is a good start.

Epcot was thought of as boring since the day it opened by the average tourist. Don't believe me....go to the library and look at old magazines and newspapers that covered the grnnd opening.

If anything, Epcot now needs to over-compensate for its boring reputation.

 

[wannab@dis]

I then had to explain all about it, and put a positive spin on things. Epcot needs to move on, just to combat that image, and this rehab is a good start.

I'll be the first to admit that I don't visit all parts of FW on every trip. I never skip SSE and I'll do M:S, TT and maybe UoE. But most of the pavilions seem old and just don't interest me enough to spend the time.

The only reason we visited the Land was because we enjoyed stopping in and grabbing some food and occasionally catching the tour. It wasn't because of the symbiosis or anything like that, I just liked the food court. I think it now looks better and the menus sound great to me.

Epcot needs to be re-invigorated (sp?) with new life and new attractions. The old is just that, it's old. Some attractions don't fall into this trap and can seem timeless. BUT, if the pavilion has lost it's appeal, the attractions inside will suffer.

 

[Fido]

I'm actually excited about The Land renovation. Before, it was sort of 'sleepy' (not as boring as Wonders of Life, though ), now it seems exciting and 'fresh'. This (Soarin and the new look of The Land) was a very important step in bringing Epcot up to date and encouraging more people to visit the park. I don't like all of the changes that have happened in Epcot, but I like this one. Now if they will just bring back the 'Listen to the Land' theme song...

 

[MiklCraw4d]

query

It is time to move on from 25 years ago.

The purpose of Epcot has changed....it had to.

If the purpose has changed, what is the purpose? What do you see the purpose of the park as?

The Epcot of 25 years ago did not appeal to the average visitor to Orlando once new competition was built. Vacationers do not want to be educated and inspired....if they did, they would vacation to Washington DC, and visit the Smithsonian.

Not to be contrary, but if EPCOT does not appeal to people why does it remain the third most popular theme park in the nation and the second most popular park in the Orlando area?

I could personalize it by saying that it was my favorite park growing up, and also the favorite park of my friends. I wasn't anything more than an 'average' visitor the first time I went to WDW, and it certainly appealed to me. But I don't need to personalize it because the numbers don't lie.

EPCOT has always been, and remains, second only in popularity to the Magic Kingdoms. I certainly can't claim to read minds, but if people weren't at least somewhat entertained by being 'educated and inspired' I think those numbers would have dropped off somewhat in the last 25 years.

mc

 

[Wckd Queen]

Not to be contrary, but if EPCOT does not appeal to people why does it remain the third most popular theme park in the nation and the second most popular park in the Orlando area?

Have you ever thought that the reason for this is that the number one vacation destination in the nation is WDW? Once you are at WDW, you will purchase a park hopper and essentially "hop" to all the parks~MK, Epcot, DAK, MGM. People spending good, hard earned money are looking to get the most bang for their buck, and since they are paying for admission to all 4 parks, they are going to visit all four parks...