Soarin' and The Land changes - what is your opinion?

[PhotoDave219]

I gotta admit.. you've lost me.. I think I get what you're (sarcastically) talking about, and out of context, what I said does (in hindsight) seem fairly idiotic..

I could be wrong, but I don't think you fly to Orlando so you can stay in the Orlando Airport, sleep over, visit the gift shop, and leave in the morning.

Youre wrong, actually. I go to OIA because from there i go to my apartment and my bed. Its where i live, you see. *I* dont fly to Orlando for Disney, i fly to orlando because its home.

And my airport reviews are nowhere near as idiotic as creating a political agenda based on the interior of a theme-park pavilion.

 

[speck76]

Exactly. It wouldn't work. Now, tell me... how many people would pay $60 to visit an airport? Especially when they just saw when getting to WDW, and are going to see one again in the next few days.

Apples to Bananas...

You were talking about building an attraction that was about farming.

The Land is not an airport attraction. Soarin' is not an airport. People are not visiting The Land for the theme, they are visiting to ride Soarin' LwtL, watch CoL, and to eat.

 

[wannab@dis]

This is not true, wannab. I had my initial doubts when I had heard from insiders that a Travel Agency was in the works a little less than a year ago, but ever since the themes of seasons came in, I was pretty darn excited. A post history search after we had heard about the return of the balloons (and as we saw the exterior of the Land being improved) will prove that I became pretty darn excited.

Grizz... you about blew a furry gasket when you THOUGHT the balloons were being removed! Then, when it was found they were returning, several posts were made about "hoping they aren't changed so they lose their meaning".

We've had discussions before and I understand the GIST of what you want to accomplish. The overall goal is good in my opinion, but you just take things too far. Choose your battles wisely and don't jump the gun would help tremendously. This is not meant as a personal attack, nor is anything I write about the troops a personal attack. I don't agree with your tactics and think your primary goals would be better achieved by being first, positive and second, informative. But, you will never inform me of anything if I can't get past the negative conotations.

What I'm hearing from Greg, et al, is that you WANT to do more positive articles and "Good Show" vs "Bad Show" items. That's good and a great way to start changing your SOP. If successful, I may once again look on your endevour as positive. But, at this time, I can't get past the negative spin that is prevalent in your work as a whole.

Sure, some of the reasons we will want to go to the park is to check out the latest thrill ride. But this doesn't mean Disney's classic education can't be included in the experience.

Grizz, my friendly bear, I hate to break it to you, but 99% of the visitors go to Epcot to be entertained, not educated. Can 'edutainment' be offered and accepted? Sure, but the education better be secondary to the entertainment if you want to see the park continue to be successful.

 

[General Grizz]

Apples to Bananas...

You were talking about building an attraction that was about farming.

The Land is not an airport attraction. Soarin' is not an airport. People are not visiting The Land for the theme, they are visiting to ride Soarin' LwtL, watch CoL, and to eat.

Although the pavilion is not an airport attraction, many of the guests and Cast Members believe the new theming around "Seasons" to resemble such. The metal railings, art deco palm trees, and less-themed design of the Seasons food preparation area have created such sentiment. . . and so I would say it is reminescent.

The entrance area to Soarin' and Behind the Seeds is definitely themed to the travel agency/airport; I can't find any signs of farming, land, etc. in that area. Although it looks pretty nice. All of it looks nice.

 

[Gregory]

OK.. In that case, replace Orlando in my post with any other destination. Do you fly to Charlotte for the good food selection and decent layout in the airport? If you do, then I wish I was as rich as you, and had the ability to fly around the world so I could grab lunch at a food court in another state.

Political agenda? I must admit I had to look that one up.. I couldn't figure out the relevance to what I have been talking about. Heres what I came up with... "The plans of an individual to enhance his or her position in the organization." I am not trying to enhance my position or anything close to that. Could you please clarify your choice of words? Because I am not a part of D-Troops to better myself. In fact, if I was looking to "enhance my position" here on WDWMagic, I'd stay out of these converstions, because they only lead to hurt feelings, and hate. I am not posting here for personal advancement, at all.

 

[speck76]

Basically what I was getting at, though, is that you don't pay to see the airport. You just go though it on the way to your destination. An airport isn't really a destination, its a gateway to a destination.

The Land is also not a destination....it is a gateway to the attractions inside.

 

[Lee]

Can 'edutainment' be offered and accepted? Sure, but the education better be secondary to the entertainment if you want to see the park continue to be successful.

Bingo!

 

[General Grizz]

Bingo!

And I also agree with wannab that entertainment takes priority for a successful theme park. But I don't believe education should be eliminated.

 

[wannab@dis]

And I also agree with wannab that entertainment takes priority for a successful theme park. But I don't believe education should be eliminated.

I also didn't say it should be eliminated, but I don't believe it should be a primary focus when designing new attractions or rehabbing a pavilion! If it fits in with a new idea, go for it, but don't forget the entertainment value had better be top notch.

 

[Lee]

And I also agree with wannab that entertainment takes priority for a successful theme park. But I don't believe education should be eliminated.

Of course not...and it hasn't been.

 

[PhotoDave219]

And I also agree with wannab that entertainment takes priority for a successful theme park. But I don't believe education should be eliminated.

Then i respectfully suggest that you and your ... "followers" (i guess thats the best word) tone it back and subtly try to educate us with your point of view, rather than beating us over the friggin head with it. It turns people, like myself, off and THATS what creates the negative impression that most of us have gotten of late.

 

[General Grizz]

I also didn't say it should be eliminated, but I don't believe it should be a primary focus when designing new attractions or rehabbing a pavilion! If it fits in with a new idea, go for it, but don't forget the entertainment value had better be top notch.

Heh, this is an interesting discussion.

For example, I believe the Spaceship Earth rehab should still focus on the progress of communication. If a funny show starring Monsters Inc would take over, I would at least hope that education is also considered almost as much. Not that I think Monsters Inc would fit in Spaceship Earth...

Thus, I think with a park like Epcot, both should go hand in hand. Magic Kingdom is obviously not an educational park, nor is MGM (in general). But Animal Kingdom attractions should deal with animals, Epcot should deal with human achievements (again, in general) if the park will stay in tune with its purpose. Talking turtles are fine, but to not have that tie in to inspiration and education would make the park quite random, don't you think?

I mean, take the dedication plaque: "May EPCOT Center entertain, inform and inspire, and above all, may it instill a new sense of belief and pride in man's ability to shape a world that offers hope to people everywhere."

I just think they should go hand in hand (a "symbosis" :lookaroun :lol: ) and should both be highly considered. It sets the park apart from all others, as it always had. Visions and entrance plaques are good things...and Disney has learned that success can be enjoyed by all groups and visitors when attractions have so many things to offer beyond eye candy and thrill (both of which are, as we've both agreed, necessary).

I'm all for entertainment, but let's keep the park unique. Heck, make it better for more people, who look for other aspects at the parks, when adding inspiration to that great entertainment.

 

[General Grizz]

Then i respectfully suggest that you and your ... "followers" (i guess thats the best word) tone it back and subtly try to educate us with your point of view, rather than beating us over the friggin head with it. It turns people, like myself, off and THATS what creates the negative impression that most of us have gotten of late.

Thank you, Dave. That's a good suggestion.

Although I never intend to "beat," just post my opinions like all others. I'll definitely reconsider the style, then, for the future, and hopefully we'll be able to understand each other better (both sides, or whatnot) in the long term.

 

[Gregory]

Then i respectfully suggest that you and your ... "followers" (i guess thats the best word) tone it back and subtly try to educate us with your point of view, rather than beating us over the friggin head with it. It turns people, like myself, off and THATS what creates the negative impression that most of us have gotten of late.

First off, we aren't Grizz's followers. I have my own opinions, as does everyone else on the site. Personal attacks won't (or at least shouldn't) help your cause.

Secondly, if people just read D-Troops before bashing the site, we wouldn't need t "beat you over the head" with it.. Its fusterating when we do one thing, but are constantly accused of doing other things. If you are going to reference D-Troops in your posts (not just you, Dave.. that was a general statement), at least actually read the site. Don't just argue what you think we are writing about, or what other people write. Do us (and yourselves) a favor, and read the site before bashing it.

Dave, while this is bordering on a personal attack (which I like to avoid), I will still say it- you are telling us to "tone it back and subtly try to educate us with your point of view". Heres a tip- your suggestions usually work best if you follow them yourself, rather than be sarcastic and make personal attacks.

 

[Gregory]

Ah.. my first negative rep point. Really shows some maturity, I must admit...

"OoooOOO Did You Hear? Theyre Bulldozing Wonders of Life!"

Heres a tip to whoever gave it to me and didn't leave their name- grow up.


From what I've heard from other people who agree with me, similar negative reps have been left for them, too... "I'm sick of your Disney bashing ways!" (how is what we are saying bashing Disney?), etc... As far as I know, nobody who dislikes the Land has given anyone negative rep points- and, if they did, it would be because the other person was engaging in a personal attack, not because they didn't agree with the other persons opinion.

Whoever is leaving these negative rep points (probably more than one person) shuld be ashamed.

 

[General Grizz]

Actually, Disney has considered demolishing the Wonders of Life based on some apparent leaks.

But that's for another thread.

 

[speck76]

Heh, this is an interesting discussion.

For example, I believe the Spaceship Earth rehab should still focus on the progress of communication. If a funny show starring Monsters Inc would take over, I would at least hope that education is also considered almost as much. Not that I think Monsters Inc would fit in Spaceship Earth...

Thus, I think with a park like Epcot, both should go hand in hand. Magic Kingdom is obviously not an educational park, nor is MGM (in general). But Animal Kingdom attractions should deal with animals, Epcot should deal with human achievements (again, in general) if the park will stay in tune with its purpose. Talking turtles are fine, but to not have that tie in to inspiration and education would make the park quite random, don't you think?

I mean, take the dedication plaque: "May EPCOT Center entertain, inform and inspire, and above all, may it instill a new sense of belief and pride in man's ability to shape a world that offers hope to people everywhere."

I just think they should go hand in hand (a "symbosis" :lookaroun :lol: ) and should both be highly considered. It sets the park apart from all others, as it always had. Visions and entrance plaques are good things...and Disney has learned that success can be enjoyed by all groups and visitors when attractions have so many things to offer beyond eye candy and thrill (both of which are, as we've both agreed, necessary).

I'm all for entertainment, but let's keep the park unique. Heck, make it better for more people, who look for other aspects at the parks, when adding inspiration to that great entertainment.

The plaque is 25 years old...

Also, you are trying to instill YOUR vision of what inspires people, and what informs people.

Perhaps an attraction like Test Track (which you have complained about many times) inspires and informs better than WoM did. Personally, for me, WoM may have been educational, but it was not really inspiring. I find it more interesting the process of testing cars, than learning a 5th grade history lesson on transportation.

Perhaps MS (which you have spoken out against) inspires people moreso than Horizons did. MS gives one a somewhat realistic space simulation....which could inspire some child to try and become an astronaut. The realism (always important) of MS is much better than that of Horizons. Why? Because most people could not fathom living in Space, or growing oranges on the moon....yet space travel.....we do it! It is believeable....because it exists.

The Land....Soarin' could inspire those who look at the beautiful views to protect these resources. The Land does not need an exhibit about the future of farming, as Gregory suggested....who is that going to inspire? How many people want to become farmers? How many potential farmers actually visit Epcot?

As far as your repeated mention of the tragedy that is the removal of AA attractions....why is this such a tragedy? Are AA's inspiring? Are AA's the only way to tell a story, or to entertain?

 

[Gregory]

The Land....Soarin' could inspire those who look at the beautiful views to protect these resources. The Land does not need an exhibit about the future of farming, as Gregory suggested....who is that going to inspire? How many people want to become farmers? How many potential farmers actually visit Epcot?

What does the Land, as it is now, inspire people to do? Run out to their local airport for a visit? I didn't actually really consider the future in farming... I was just saying that at least doing that would be something...

 

[General Grizz]

The plaque is 25 years old...

Also, you are trying to instill YOUR vision of what inspires people, and what informs people.

Perhaps an attraction like Test Track (which you have complained about many times) inspires and informs better than WoM did. Personally, for me, WoM may have been educational, but it was not really inspiring. I find it more interesting the process of testing cars, than learning a 5th grade history lesson on transportation.

Perhaps MS (which you have spoken out against) inspires people moreso than Horizons did. MS gives one a somewhat realistic space simulation....which could inspire some child to try and become an astronaut. The realism (always important) of MS is much better than that of Horizons. Why? Because most people could not fathom living in Space, or growing oranges on the moon....yet space travel.....we do it! It is believeable....because it exists.

The Land....Soarin' could inspire those who look at the beautiful views to protect these resources. The Land does not need an exhibit about the future of farming, as Gregory suggested....who is that going to inspire? How many people want to become farmers? How many potential farmers actually visit Epcot?

As far as your repeated mention of the tragedy that is the removal of AA attractions....why is this such a tragedy? Are AA's inspiring? Are AA's the only way to tell a story, or to entertain?

Of course AAs are not the only ways to tell stories. But they are extremely effective.

My post was a defense of education in general, not a statement based on any existing Epcot attraction. The discussion involved what we personally believe should be in the minds of those creating Disney attractions.

 

[PhotoDave219]

Thank you, Dave. That's a good suggestion.

Although I never intend to "beat," just post my opinions like all others. I'll definitely reconsider the style, then, for the future, and hopefully we'll be able to understand each other better (both sides, or whatnot) in the long term.

I feel that most of your D-Troops contributors are extremely definsive when any sort of criticism or questioning is brought about. For the most part i just try to ignore it. Its hard to respect someone's opinion when i feel like I'm being condecended to.

I do see your point of view and do agree to an extent, I like the concept of symbiosis but i think it is lost on all but 0.0015% of the epcot crowds. I think they should continue the sense of educating the crowds, but work on it in a subtle manner. I do see where youre trying to the upper-ups of Disney to pay more attention to the concepts of educating while entertaining when they make their business decisions.

Big picture wise, i feel that this is a good move, because it will increase guest atetndance and guest flow, thereby raising income and profit, thus justifying and financing something even more cool for Epcot25 or farther down the road.