So, what IS wrong with Space Mountain?

[mcjaco]

^ I've been on lots of rides I probably shouldn't have riden either. Anyone that's been to Santa's Village (defunct in Dundee, IL) or Little A-Merrick-A, is cheating death on most of their little coasters.

So what a Disney engineer thinks isn't safe may be well above what really isn't.

Maybe. :lookaroun :shrug:

 

[Phonedave]

It`s a system that detects pressure variations within the (hollow) rails so I assume it is pressure transducers.

We use a very similar system to monitor underground telecommunications cables. We use both flow and pressure transducers. Using one or the other only gives you a partial picture of what is going on. Both together let you troubleshoot with much greater accuracy and less time. But then thats cable, as opposed to coaster track.

-dave

 

[Phonedave]

I, like tirian, have been told directly by Disney engineers, "I wouldn't ride it." It's not Disneyland's yet, but it's well on the way.

I have been told by WDW transportation employees (aka bus drivers) a whole load of bunk as well about the transportation system.

Again, this is all second hand information. WHY wouldn.t they ride it. Specific reasons maybe. Brakes ? Track integrity? lockout/tagout protocall? Mold conditions in the mountaion ?

This is all very tangential information I am getting.

-dave

 

[Phonedave]

^ I've been on lots of rides I probably shouldn't have riden either. Anyone that's been to Santa's Village (defunct in Dundee, IL) or Little A-Merrick-A, is cheating death on most of their little coasters.

So what a Disney engineer thinks isn't safe may be well above what really isn't.

Maybe. :lookaroun :shrug:

I cut my teeth on Action Park as a kid - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Action_Park

Its popularity went hand in hand with a reputation for poorly-designed, unsafe rides; inattentive, underaged, underpaid and sometimes under-the-influence employees[2]; equally intoxicated and underprepared visitors — and the poor safety record that followed from this perfect storm of circumstances. At least six people are known to have died as a result of mishaps on rides at the park, and it was nicknamed "Traction Park",[3] "Accident Park",[4] "Class Action Park", "Danger Park" and "Death Park" by doctors at nearby hospitals due to the number of severely injured parkgoers they treated.



You may be right - how do you define "safe"

-dave

 

[tirian]

I have been told by WDW transportation employees (aka bus drivers) a whole load of bunk as well about the transportation system.

Again, this is all second hand information. WHY wouldn.t they ride it. Specific reasons maybe. Brakes ? Track integrity? lockout/tagout protocall? Mold conditions in the mountaion ?

This is all very tangential information I am getting.

-dave

What I'm about to type is going to look very confrontational, but it's not intended to be. :wave:

What more do you want me, Sir Goof, or WDW1974 to say? We've all been told point-blank that Space Mt.'s track needs to be replaced soon. As far as I know, none of us are engineers; and it didn't occur to me to ask for specifics when the two engineers I spoke to told me they don't ride it. All they said was that the track is patched together and needs to be replaced.

Implying that this is standard bus driver bunk and demanding specifics that we don't have doesn't make your argument look stronger. Stubborn, yes; stronger, no. I can't vouch for the other two commentators, but my information came directly from a night crew that was running safety checks on Space Mt. Whether or not you choose to believe me doesn't matter, because I don't have any more information anyway.

Obviously, the track is safe enough to ride for now, but that doesn't mean it doesn't need to be replaced. Don't forget, DL's literally fell apart months before its schedule replacement, yet it was considered "safe enough" until that point.

I agree with you that an engineer's definition of "safety" probably overcompensates.

But apart from all this, why wouldn't you want the track replaced? :veryconfu Are you just trying to "prove" three people are liers?

Again, I'm not trying to start an argument, so please don't get offended.

 

[Phonedave]

What I'm about to type is going to look very confrontational, but it's not intended to be. :wave:

What more do you want me, Sir Goof, or WDW1974 to say? We've all been told point-blank that Space Mt.'s track needs to be replaced soon. As far as I know, none of us are engineers; and it didn't occur to me to ask for specifics when the two engineers I spoke to told me they don't ride it. All they said was that the track is patched together and needs to be replaced.

Implying that this is standard bus driver bunk and demanding specifics that we don't have doesn't make your argument look stronger. Stubborn, yes; stronger, no. I can't vouch for the other two commentators, but my information came directly from a night crew that was running safety checks on Space Mt. Whether or not you choose to believe me doesn't matter, because I don't have any more information anyway.

Obviously, the track is safe enough to ride for now, but that doesn't mean it doesn't need to be replaced. Don't forget, DL's literally fell apart months before its schedule replacement, yet it was considered "safe enough" until that point.

I agree with you that an engineer's definition of "safety" probably overcompensates.

But apart from all this, why wouldn't you want the track replaced? :veryconfu Are you just trying to "prove" three people are liers?

Again, I'm not trying to start an argument, so please don't get offended.

No offense taken, but the thing is, "facts" such as these tend to get legs on their own.

Everytime a discussion about SM comes up, somone chimes in with "it isn't safe". However, I have never heard anybody give a good reason as to why its not safe.

Now, being patched together and needing to be reaplaced is NOT the same as unsafe. I don't doubt what your friends said, and I don't doubt what other people have been told, but its the old game of telephone.

Someone says "I wouldn't ride it" and all of a sudden it becomes "the track is falling apart".

I am just wondering if anyone has any concrete evidence that its unsafe. Maybe its because i DO have an engineering background that details like this interest me.

I am not trying to proove anything one way or another. In fact I think SM NEEDS a refurb. It is in a sorry state. I do like "rough" coasters, but thats a matter of personal taste. Coasters can be new, safe, top-of-the-line, and still rough. SM needs building fixes, queue fixes, a general spruce up, and new effects. It may possibly need a track refurb, I am sure it couldn't hurt. I have never rode DL's verison, so I cannot comment on the soundtrack (but I do like it in RnRC).

So, to sum up. SM does indeed need a refurb. The track is indeed rough. I am just trying to determine where this whole unsafe thing came from and verify as to WHY people think its unsafe.

-dave

 

[WDW1974]

Dave, I'm just telling you what I have heard from people who would know. That's it.

I'm not out to cost anyone a job by outing them on a fan site when Disney monitors these places.

No one told me 'if you ride Space Mountain you're going to die' ... but I was told on more than one occasion by more than one person that the ride is in bad shape and they wouldn't advise riding.

I think they're just likely erring on the side of caution. I mean, we both know Disney doesn't want another accident that kills people or even just bruises a few.

But Phil Holmes and Ops have pushed to keep this thing open for years when it should have been close and gutted a decade ago. Space Mountain 2.0 should have relaunched in 99 for the Millennium Celebration.

It's beyond a joke that it is still open now.

And the fact you, and others enjoy rough coasters, doesn't change the fact that it's rough not because it was built to be but because it is old and in bad shape. Rough rides aren't really good for Disney anyway because they can aggravate (and cause) injuries and lead to legal actions.

 

[agent86]

With the exception of California Screamin' and Matterhorn, most of the major coaster's were built by Vekoma. They're the only company that seems to like to work with Disney on these projects. You won't see Intamin working with them anytime soon. :zipit:

I suppose it depends on how you define "most" and "major coasters".

Matterhorn was built by Arrow Development, which later changed it's name to Arrow Dynamics. Arrow Dynamics is the company that also built the first ever corkscrew coaster (Corkscrew at Knott's Berry Farm, which was long ago sold to a theme park in Mexico) and the first 360 degree looping coaster (Revolution at Six Flags Magic Mountain).

Space Mountain at MK was built by Walt Disney Imagineering. Originally, DL's version of Space Mountain (as well as Tokyo DL's) was also built by WDI. Vekoma built the re-built DL version and the HKDL version, as well as the DLP version. All of the Big Thunder's were built by WDI.

 

[Tom Morrow]

^

Revolution was not built by Arrow Dynamics... it was Schwarzkopf, and DLP's Big Thunder Mountain was built by Vekoma also.

 

[mcjaco]

Rough rides aren't really good for Disney anyway because they can aggravate (and cause) injuries and lead to legal actions.

With that mentality, every park in the country with a roller coaster should be closed, because of possible legal action. While, I agree that people don't expect Disney to have coasters that are rough, when you work with one of the manufacturers know for rough coasters, it's going to happen.

I'm not touching on the legal action. That stupidity needs to stop. We've become a nation of legal morons. :zipit:

I All of the Big Thunder's were built by WDI.

I'm pretty sure they consulted on the Big Thunder's too.

 

[tirian]

No offense taken, but the thing is, "facts" such as these tend to get legs on their own.

Good.

Everytime a discussion about SM comes up, somone chimes in with "it isn't safe". However, I have never heard anybody give a good reason as to why its not safe.

Now, being patched together and needing to be reaplaced is NOT the same as unsafe. I don't doubt what your friends said, and I don't doubt what other people have been told, but its the old game of telephone.

Someone says "I wouldn't ride it" and all of a sudden it becomes "the track is falling apart".

I understand your concern; we all know how wild Internet message boards can get, especially when immature people take one thing and run with it.

I am just wondering if anyone has any concrete evidence that its unsafe. Maybe its because i DO have an engineering background that details like this interest me.

I am aware of your background and I assumed that's why you wanted more specifics. However, if I did have specifics, I wouldn't be able to disclose them. I don't, so it doesn't matter.

So, to sum up. SM does indeed need a refurb. The track is indeed rough. I am just trying to determine where this whole unsafe thing came from and verify as to WHY people think its unsafe.

There's definitely a difference between feeling unsafe and being unsafe. Space Mt. has always felt unsafe simply because of its vehicle configuration. I don't have any specifics regarding the structural issues in Space Mt., but I can say this much: WDI considers complete track replacement necessary.

 

[tirian]

I think they're just likely erring on the side of caution. I mean, we both know Disney doesn't want another accident that kills people or even just bruises a few.

Exactly. I don't think the track is going to fall apart; but given its current condition, WDI and the other engineers probably just want to replace it now so they don't have to worry about it later.

No matter what, Space Mt.'s track will HAVE to be replaced. No steel coaster can last forever.

In the meantime, I still ride it whenever I can; I'm certainly not paranoid.

 

[DisneyMusician2]

Other than the shortened time period, do we have any word on what will actually be done on this rehab?

I know a track replacement would be unlikely in 6 months, but is it possible?

 

[mcjaco]

Space Mt. has always felt unsafe simply because of its vehicle configuration.

I'm not sure I follow how the configuration feels unsafe.

I know a track replacement would be unlikely in 6 months, but is it possible?

They build entire coasters in less than six months. It's certainly not unfeasible.

 

[DisneyMusician2]

They build entire coasters in less than six months. It's certainly not unfeasible.

I would trade increased effects for the new ride system any day. They could always add some different effects later.

 

[MousDad]

I've never shared this story yet in countless SM threads, but it's true.

I threw my back out on SM in 2000. This was on the 2nd day of a week long trip to WDW (my first since childhood). For the rest of the vacation, my lower back literally locked up on me. No joke, I could not walk for more than 10-15 minutes without having to sit down and take a break to let the pain go away.

I was in my mid-20s at the time and never had any problem like that before or since. Needless to say, it ruined the rest of the trip (especially navigating Epcot the next day).

My stepdad also through his back out on SM in 2003, but it wasn't that severe.

Since then I've only ventured back on it once, without injury. But to be honest, I never go into MK actually planning to ride SM anymore. And I'm a coaster junkie.

 

[tirian]

I'm not sure I follow how the configuration feels unsafe.

The single file seating and low sides—the configuration is exciting and contributes to the false sense of extreme speed.

 

[mcjaco]

I threw my back out on SM in 2000.

I threw my back out eating soup while sitting on the floor. One cough, and me hunched over. It was the worst pain I've ever experienced. It was due more to the way my muscles were positioned, and that I have a very weak core.

The single file seating and low sides—the configuration is exciting and contributes to the false sense of extreme speed.

Ahhh. OK. I didn't understand because the Whizzer is the same seating arrangement, and it never felt "unsafe" to me, even as a kid.

 

[MousDad]

I threw my back out eating soup while sitting on the floor. One cough, and me hunched over. It was the worst pain I've ever experienced. It was due more to the way my muscles were positioned, and that I have a very weak core.

Man, if I'd been eating soup on Space Mountain that day, I would have been really screwed.

 

[EpcotServo]

Man, if I'd been eating soup on Space Mountain that day, I would have been really screwed.

HA!
Good comedic turn there!
:lol::sohappy: