Rumor Siemens is going to end their sponsorship with the parks - Spaceship Earth and IllumiNations

Goofyernmost

Well-Known Member
No, history has nothing to do with it. This descent - and its basic errors - has been discussed to death over the last ten years.

As has also been discussed, the ascent was mostly changed for the better. There’s a shock. Change was good.
Again... all opinion based on individual thoughts about what is good and what isn't. Even the idea that you perceive things to be "basic errors" is a matter of opinion. Look Martin, you can feel whatever way you want to and I almost never react to it until you make some snide comment implying my inability to judge things based on my own feelings and desires. Then I get angry and perhaps say some things that are less then wonderful.

I fully respect your grasp of the history of everything Disney, I do not always agree with your "let's never change anything that I liked" attitude that you use against a different view point. Most of the time it is not your knowledge of what has happened before or what is happening now, it's that interpretation based on how you think things need to be. Although it is OK to think differently, it is not OK to make condescending statements when someone disagrees with your opinion.

I am one of the first ones to agree that the original EPCOT was wonderful, but, I am also one to admit the it is obvious that the idea was more ambitious then it was possible to maintain. You don't need to be a rocket scientist to know that the world has changed and they could no longer depend on private enterprise to continuously upgrade, at their expense, current technology when so many other avenues became available to market things then there was in 1982. Those days are gone and the margin of return on Disney footing that expense that in affect would be benefiting the sources of that change more then Disney itself were easy to see, once the technological explosion happened.

That was after EPCOT was built. Before then no one realized the speed with which technology was going to re-invent itself. On top of that it became a reality that the general public didn't want to be riding in slow moving rides filling them full of knowledge they didn't ask for. Yes, many of us wanted and encouraged that, but, declined attendance at EPCOT made it obvious that intellectually this was a great thing... as an entertainment venture.. not so much.

I have no desire to continue this discussion because I'd be surprised if anything new would come to the surface at this point. We will have to agree to disagree and stop trying to imply stubbornness on either side.
 

marni1971

Park History nut
Premium Member
I have no desire to continue this discussion because I'd be surprised if anything new would come to the surface at this point..
Try it then :D

Although "my opinion" doesn’t seem to be just my own. Perhaps it’s not just me who is not happy to settle for mediocrity.

But I do appreciate the honesty you showed in that post :)
 
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smile

Well-Known Member
Just one point though... attendance actually grew year on year as intellectually attractive attractions were added. As the park dumbed down, attendance declined. And the park has never recovered yet.

thank you!

was doing my best to roll right along trying to appreciate the candidness of an alternate perspective...
but it was 'round 'bout then that my eye started to twitch
 

Calm Down Rover

Well-Known Member
I don't see this mentioned a lot in the 2007 version discourse, but I actually really dislike that the Greek theatre scene was replaced by a math class. Ever since Imagination ditched the art/literature/theatre angle, I feel like creativity in general has been edged out of Future World in favor of defining progress solely in terms of hard sciences. There was a nice balance before, in my opinion.
 

HMF

Well-Known Member
I don't see this mentioned a lot in the 2007 version discourse, but I actually really dislike that the Greek theatre scene was replaced by a math class. Ever since Imagination ditched the art/literature/theatre angle, I feel like creativity in general has been edged out of Future World in favor of defining progress solely in terms of hard sciences. There was a nice balance before, in my opinion.
I agree but that is mostly because I prefer the arts to hard science anyway.
 

smile

Well-Known Member
I don't see this mentioned a lot in the 2007 version discourse, but I actually really dislike that the Greek theatre scene was replaced by a math class. Ever since Imagination ditched the art/literature/theatre angle, I feel like creativity in general has been edged out of Future World in favor of defining progress solely in terms of hard sciences. There was a nice balance before, in my opinion.

agreed - appreciate the perspective

far as the greeks, consider the segues, as well:

The value of writing for accurate record keeping appeals to Phoenician merchants. They create an alphabet; simple enough for any to learn, and share this new tool at ports along the Mediterranean... In classic Greece, the alphabet grows and flowers with new expression and a new stage of storytelling emerges; a stage on which we examine our world and ourselves. The theater is born.
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Phoenician merchants established the earliest commercial highways, trading goods and information at distant ports of call. To aid in record keeping, they created the first common alphabet and shared this new tool across the Mediterranean... In ancient Greece, the spoken word was elevated to a fine art. Philosophers debated with one another in plazas and storytellers found a new forum for personal expression. The theater was born.
---
At this point each civilization has its own form of writing which none of the other's can understand. But the Phoenicians, who trade with all of them, have a solution. They create a simple common alphabet adaptable to most languages. Remember how easy it was to learn your ABC's? Thank the Phoenicians, they invented them... The ancient Greeks were great inventors of the future. First they established public schools, and then begin teaching an intriguing new subject called mathematics. And with math comes mechanical technology and the birth of a high tech life we enjoy today.
 
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Disney Analyst

Well-Known Member
That finale scene pre 2007.... the city of magic I want to call it... What is that area now? I don't recall an area wide enough for all of that. Are the black curtains just super close to the track hiding all that extra space? I remember it being super narrow.
 

HMF

Well-Known Member
That finale scene pre 2007.... the city of magic I want to call it... What is that area now? I don't recall an area wide enough for all of that. Are the black curtains just super close to the track hiding all that extra space? I remember it being super narrow.
The area where the city was is now a cluster of glowing triangles.
 

MerlinTheGoat

Well-Known Member
Kevin Yee posted some shots of the current descent with the worklights on. And gave some elaboration on what these scenes currently contain-


It appears they did cover parts in curtains and tarps. I don't know if the city of light space in particular was covered or painted over with black. That space housing the city wasn't very big at all, quite a bit smaller than you'd probably think. It was a masterful bit of forced perspective that gave it scale. Gorgeous and inspirational scene with wonderful music. It legit gave me chills.

Incidentally, the current generation of imagineers at Disney seem to (on average) lack the same level of skill with forced perspective effects compared to the original park imagineers from the 50s through the 90s. This issue can be seen in parts of New Fantasyland in particular.
 

marni1971

Park History nut
Premium Member
The “city of lights” was removed:

486035A0-4564-4995-8AD8-71F302D87F00.png
 
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EpcotMark

Active Member
82 was dry and boring...By far the worst version on the way up and second worst on the way down. The one we all think of as "classic" was the second version with Cronkite. Amazing how much a proper narration and score can improve something.


Yeah I agree. The music in Cronkite and Irons I thought was catchy and memorable. As were most of the classic Epcot attractions. The ride no longer gives you that inspirational psychological push that I thought was so needed to get people inspired and feel propeled to go out into the rest of the park and further explore this inspirational place.
 

EpcotMark

Active Member
Larry Gertz did the Irons script.


I miss Larry Gertz. He was responsible for many of the positive things we saw in the 1990s at Epcot, including the Spaceship Earth update. I once saw a video of him talking about future plans for Epcot. This was made sometime around 2001. In the video, he talks about the possibilty of combining the Land and the Seas into a single pavilion, like a Living Planet. I know they also were experimenting around with taking the Body Wars simulator and theming it as Toy Story as if you are riding around in the little race car, with the overall theme of the pavilion being "Adventures through Life." With Met Life still sponsoring. But that never came to be.
 

Bender123

Well-Known Member
Yeah I agree. The music in Cronkite and Irons I thought was catchy and memorable. As were most of the classic Epcot attractions. The ride no longer gives you that inspirational psychological push that I thought was so needed to get people inspired and feel propeled to go out into the rest of the park and further explore this inspirational place.

I actually don't mind Judy Dench...The problem with the current version is that ending. The lighthearted tone of the narration puts it as a solid second worst, but that gap between Irons/Cronkite/Dench and 82 is huge...Its far closer to the best versions than it is to the worst version.
 

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