Screamscape - Monorail Expansion Rumor

[WDWFREAK53]

So this no longer becomes a 'monorail expansion' but a 'completely new monorail system' - making it even less likely to happen. My point wasn't that it can't be done - but that it can't be done with what they have now so it's not just a matter of running a few new beams, etc. You're starting from new except for some of the beam.. but in the sense you guys are whipping up, the existing system is but a fraction of the total system you propose.




So if it still takes 30+mins to get from A to B - and I still had to transfer for resorts. What did this massive investment you propose gain us?

If you can't bypass trains - that means everyone along a route needs to share the same resources. So while a monorail may carry 4-5x the # of people a bus can.. if you've made the same train responsible for 4-5x the number of destinations.. you've wiped out all the capacity advantages the train had. You've got one vehicle instead of 4-5, but you've not added capacity, you've not shortened the trip, and you've made the trip have more legs to it. How is this an improvement?



Because in NYC - you are forced to transfer and use feeder networks. The very things people hate about WDW's current transportation... and the thing all the dreamers completely overlook. The WDW customers are clammering for direct routes - not tiered systems.



It's not the problem - it's the design. The problem is you are chasing this from a 'how do I build a more efficent transportation system' and not starting with the objective of 'how do I answer the customer concerns with the system today'. Customers don't like transferring, they don't like buses, they don't like the overall time routes take, they don't like not all paths are direct paths. Your monorail suggestions address none of those problems. All they do is attempt to put the most expensive form of transport along a route based on a need of 'a park needs a monorail' as opposed to saying 'a destination has this much demand'.

Why would you suggest putting in the most structured, most expensive, highest capacity form of transport to a destination based on type of destination instead of it's actual need. For instance, the All Stars complex serves FAR more people per day than say AK does.. yet you propose running the high capacity train to AK instead of to All Stars.

You guys are designing with 'passion' instead of addressing the actual needs. Which results in trophy systems that don't actually improve the situation they were built to address.

Lack of total capacity is not the main problem.. so when you are proposing putting in higher capacity, but fixed line, system - right from the start you know you are going down the wrong path.

The advantage Disney has over public transit system is the amount of demand for a destination is relatively fixed. They don't have to build future capacity into a route. If a hotel has 1,000 rooms, it's not going to grow at 15% a year like a commuter route may.

A replacement/enhancement for the bus system of today must (in order of importance)
1) reduce the total time of transit
2) provide a 'self-centered' experience - this train goes where I want to go
3) provides an elegant experience

If it doesn't do that - in that order - you won't please the guests.

Need proof? That's why there is direct service to the MK now instead of TTC. Total transit time trumps experience for the majority of guests. And Disney caved to it.

Ding Ding Ding...we have a winner. EXACTLY!

 

[s8film40]

So this no longer becomes a 'monorail expansion' but a 'completely new monorail system' - making it even less likely to happen. My point wasn't that it can't be done - but that it can't be done with what they have now so it's not just a matter of running a few new beams, etc. You're starting from new except for some of the beam.. but in the sense you guys are whipping up, the existing system is but a fraction of the total system you propose.

You expand the system but update the technology, this is happening right now anyways. They are currently updating the technology a little at a time but without a clear plan of where they may eventually go with monorails. Station gates have been updated, monitoring systems, AC is now the preferred power for monorails and will need to be upgraded to benefit from these advantages and there is currently an internal push for automation. If the whole thing is reevaluated from the ground up and enhanced at the same time it is expanded it is a better use of these resources. The existing line would represent a little under half of the beam way in a full on expansion and modernization project

So if it still takes 30+mins to get from A to B - and I still had to transfer for resorts. What did this massive investment you propose gain us?

If you can't bypass trains - that means everyone along a route needs to share the same resources. So while a monorail may carry 4-5x the # of people a bus can.. if you've made the same train responsible for 4-5x the number of destinations.. you've wiped out all the capacity advantages the train had. You've got one vehicle instead of 4-5, but you've not added capacity, you've not shortened the trip, and you've made the trip have more legs to it. How is this an improvement?

I agree with you here the advantage of expanding and modernizing the system would be increased efficiency and flexibility.

Because in NYC - you are forced to transfer and use feeder networks. The very things people hate about WDW's current transportation... and the thing all the dreamers completely overlook. The WDW customers are clammering for direct routes - not tiered systems.



It's not the problem - it's the design. The problem is you are chasing this from a 'how do I build a more efficent transportation system' and not starting with the objective of 'how do I answer the customer concerns with the system today'. Customers don't like transferring, they don't like buses, they don't like the overall time routes take, they don't like not all paths are direct paths. Your monorail suggestions address none of those problems. All they do is attempt to put the most expensive form of transport along a route based on a need of 'a park needs a monorail' as opposed to saying 'a destination has this much demand'.

Why would you suggest putting in the most structured, most expensive, highest capacity form of transport to a destination based on type of destination instead of it's actual need. For instance, the All Stars complex serves FAR more people per day than say AK does.. yet you propose running the high capacity train to AK instead of to All Stars.

You guys are designing with 'passion' instead of addressing the actual needs. Which results in trophy systems that don't actually improve the situation they were built to address.

Lack of total capacity is not the main problem.. so when you are proposing putting in higher capacity, but fixed line, system - right from the start you know you are going down the wrong path.

The advantage Disney has over public transit system is the amount of demand for a destination is relatively fixed. They don't have to build future capacity into a route. If a hotel has 1,000 rooms, it's not going to grow at 15% a year like a commuter route may.

A replacement/enhancement for the bus system of today must (in order of importance)
1) reduce the total time of transit
2) provide a 'self-centered' experience - this train goes where I want to go
3) provides an elegant experience

If it doesn't do that - in that order - you won't please the guests.

Need proof? That's why there is direct service to the MK now instead of TTC. Total transit time trumps experience for the majority of guests. And Disney caved to it.

WDW is a very different dynamic than a city. With a city you simply try to move people from place to place based on demand. In WDW you don't need to provide more efficient transportation to a value resort because it doesn't require the same level of service. Deluxe resorts pay more for better bus service at WDW. The same applies here running a bus to AS is okay because the same fast transportation service that is expected at a deluxe resort is not at a value.

Hotels do expand, Pop Century was designed to expand most of the Deluxe hotels have added DVC or are planning to.

Guests don't mind transferring when monorails are involved because they know the travel time will be less. I have personally been at Epcot when all the guests were told the monorail was down and that if they wanted to go to MK they would need to take a direct bus instead of two monorails. I can assure you they weren't happy.

 

[flynnibus]

people didn't want to take the bus because of the perception of buses in America - not because they know the monorail is faster.

Besides.. I believe you all have your priorities whacked.. you advocate monorail as this capacity god-send, yet aim to put it places not based on capacity need but emotional/sentimenal needs. You start off with operational 'concerns' as motivation to make changes, but don't address those operational concerns in your solution.

I'll leave you with this thought... Disney still sells park hoppers as an option, and not everyone takes it... yet every hotel guest needs to get to a park.

 

[s8film40]

people didn't want to take the bus because of the perception of buses in America - not because they know the monorail is faster.

Besides.. I believe you all have your priorities whacked.. you advocate monorail as this capacity god-send, yet aim to put it places not based on capacity need but emotional/sentimenal needs. You start off with operational 'concerns' as motivation to make changes, but don't address those operational concerns in your solution.

I'll leave you with this thought... Disney still sells park hoppers as an option, and not everyone takes it... yet every hotel guest needs to get to a park.

I've said from the very beginning that what I want to see is fast and efficient transportation to and from the key places that are visited by everyone these are the parks. Running one efficient means of transportation from park to park just makes sense. This serves two purposes it allows for easier park hopping and builds a backbone of a transportation network that can be built off of. I personally don't ride buses. If I have to go from one location to another and buses are the option I simply drive. This is my preference and not because I like monorails but because it's faster and easier. With that being said there definitely is a part of me that simply wants to ride monorails. This is why I grew up liking WDW and what made me realize that WDW wasn't just some cheap amusement park. It was the experience as a whole, the fact that even transportation in this place was special. This really isn't about the economics of it or the efficiency it's about what people expect. For years people have expected a higher level of quality from WDW and every year that level of quality drops, a big part of that is from adding destinations without building a quick, efficient, and fun means of transportation. There are lots of arguments why monorails shouldn't be added I really think these are just apologists arguments defending the current state of WDW. No one could make any good argument when WDW was being built why it would need a monorail but they did it and that was what made it special, now today they don't do it and that is what makes WDW more ordinary.

 

[juniorthomas]

If TDO wants to expand the monorail, it'll happen. Regardless of the significant expense, transit times, and all of the other various complaints that seem popular at the moment.

Until the first new pylon goes in, however, it's still only a rumor.

Would it be a nice addition to WDW? Absolutely. Would I be sad if it didn't happen? Not really. I think I'd prefer meaningful park/resort expansion over a monorail expansion any day.

 

[flynnibus]

I've said from the very beginning that what I want to see is fast and efficient transportation to and from the key places that are visited by everyone these are the parks. Running one efficient means of transportation from park to park just makes sense. This serves two purposes it allows for easier park hopping and builds a backbone of a transportation network that can be built off of. I personally don't ride buses. If I have to go from one location to another and buses are the option I simply drive. This is my preference and not because I like monorails but because it's faster and easier. With that being said there definitely is a part of me that simply wants to ride monorails. This is why I grew up liking WDW and what made me realize that WDW wasn't just some cheap amusement park. It was the experience as a whole, the fact that even transportation in this place was special. This really isn't about the economics of it or the efficiency it's about what people expect. For years people have expected a higher level of quality from WDW and every year that level of quality drops, a big part of that is from adding destinations without building a quick, efficient, and fun means of transportation. There are lots of arguments why monorails shouldn't be added I really think these are just apologists arguments defending the current state of WDW. No one could make any good argument when WDW was being built why it would need a monorail but they did it and that was what made it special, now today they don't do it and that is what makes WDW more ordinary.

If you really dream about the monorails because you want something bigger and better at WDW... dream beyond monorails. Because you're simply trying to force something in there because it's unique instead of actually being a unique SOLUTION to the problems. You're trying to force the square peg in the round hole because monorails have nostalgia for you.

You're trying to relive the past instead of creating the future. It's everything Walt Disney was against doing.

 

[s8film40]

If you really dream about the monorails because you want something bigger and better at WDW... dream beyond monorails. Because you're simply trying to force something in there because it's unique instead of actually being a unique SOLUTION to the problems. You're trying to force the square peg in the round hole because monorails have nostalgia for you.

You're trying to relive the past instead of creating the future. It's everything Walt Disney was against doing.

Maybe so, if buses are the future and monorails are the past than I'm happier with the past. I visit WDW less and less and will continue to phase it out as it in my opinion continues to regress in quality and innovation. I'm not opposed to other innovative ideas but as long as they are buying more buses to me at least they're going in the wrong direction.

 

[flynnibus]

Maybe so, if buses are the future and monorails are the past than I'm happier with the past. I visit WDW less and less and will continue to phase it out as it in my opinion continues to regress in quality and innovation. I'm not opposed to other innovative ideas but as long as they are buying more buses to me at least they're going in the wrong direction.

I'm not saying buses are the future - but if one starts with 'I want to solve the current transportation problems...' buses are a far better way to do that than monorails. There are lots of innovations one can pursue in how vehicles are loaded, how stations are setup, and the routes available to the buses themselves that would all improve the responsiveness and travel time of existing technologies. You have a bias against buses, as do most americans. It seems from how public transit was deployed and who relied upon it here in America. Most of the rest of the world doesn't have such a stigma against buses.

If you start off with 'I want a next generation transportation system for WDW that solves the current transportation problems and makes WDW unique' - then there are lots of forward looking things you can consider and dream about.

Like vehicle-switched routed networks. Think modern baggage handling systems.. they work by identifying where a source item wants to go, and traverse a network of paths to get to that destination. Same as packet switched networks.

Instead of having a bunch of point to point paths - you have paths which vehicles are routed across based on their source/destination.

Imagine a fleet of mag-lev cabins where people enter, and the cabin is routed based on the rider's input. Cabins are routed to where demand exists or is planned to exist. Excess cabins can be queued up on a spur just waiting to be called into service.

Or an alternative is instead of family sized cabins, imagine small bus sized vehicles of the same concept.. and people are loaded at stations based on where they need to go.. and the cabins set their route based on ridership.

Traffic across the common map is managed by computers with multiple routes so that conjestion or service issues can be routed around.

It would be the Transportation Internet. The actual locomotion of the system is interchangeable with other technologies too..

 

[juniorthomas]

I'm not saying buses are the future - but if one starts with 'I want to solve the current transportation problems...' buses are a far better way to do that than monorails. There are lots of innovations one can pursue in how vehicles are loaded, how stations are setup, and the routes available to the buses themselves that would all improve the responsiveness and travel time of existing technologies. You have a bias against buses, as do most americans. It seems from how public transit was deployed and who relied upon it here in America. Most of the rest of the world doesn't have such a stigma against buses.

If you start off with 'I want a next generation transportation system for WDW that solves the current transportation problems and makes WDW unique' - then there are lots of forward looking things you can consider and dream about.

Like vehicle-switched routed networks. Think modern baggage handling systems.. they work by identifying where a source item wants to go, and traverse a network of paths to get to that destination. Same as packet switched networks.

Instead of having a bunch of point to point paths - you have paths which vehicles are routed across based on their source/destination.

Imagine a fleet of mag-lev cabins where people enter, and the cabin is routed based on the rider's input. Cabins are routed to where demand exists or is planned to exist. Excess cabins can be queued up on a spur just waiting to be called into service.

Or an alternative is instead of family sized cabins, imagine small bus sized vehicles of the same concept.. and people are loaded at stations based on where they need to go.. and the cabins set their route based on ridership.

Traffic across the common map is managed by computers with multiple routes so that conjestion or service issues can be routed around.

It would be the Transportation Internet. The actual locomotion of the system is interchangeable with other technologies too..

Indeed. And it could be argued that an energy efficient renovation of the bus fleet would be more productive (and less expensive) than a new monorail.

Of course, it's not nearly as pretty of a solution...

 

[steve2wdw]

This isn't a glamorous solution to the larger problems of transport, but building a (bus only) flyover lane, above the MK parking access roads (in the location where N World Drive currently turns left onto Vista Blvd) would save bus passengers the time it currently takes to navigate both Seven Seas Drive and Floridian Way. I'm estimating its about 1 1/2 miles around the MK parking lots where as a direct route south down N World Drive onto the main World Drive would be a heck of alot more efficient in both time and fuel. Seven Seas is always a slow haul, negotiating both pedestrians and the raised speed tables/crosswalks. My last trip from MK to AKL included an unbearably slow 7 minute ride around the MK lots. Even cutting that in half would dramatically reduce the 25 minute ride to the Lodge (especially unbearable when standing).

 

[s8film40]

This isn't a glamorous solution to the larger problems of transport, but building a (bus only) flyover lane, above the MK parking access roads (in the location where N World Drive currently turns left onto Vista Blvd) would save bus passengers the time it currently takes to navigate both Seven Seas Drive and Floridian Way. I'm estimating its about 1 1/2 miles around the MK parking lots where as a direct route south down N World Drive onto the main World Drive would be a heck of alot more efficient in both time and fuel. Seven Seas is always a slow haul, negotiating both pedestrians and the raised speed tables/crosswalks. My last trip from MK to AKL included an unbearably slow 7 minute ride around the MK lots. Even cutting that in half would dramatically reduce the 25 minute ride to the Lodge (especially unbearable when standing).

That has actually been in the plans for a very long time. In this photo you can see the proposed (red lines) roads making up the new interchange there. This is from the 1996 WDW master land use plan. The big hurdle in this project I think though is that since these particular roads happen to be on WDW owned property, WDW would have to pay for the road improvements and they probably just don't want to spend the money.

 

[GenerationX]

Gigantic nets and catapults at each park and resort. Fast, efficient, low-cost, green.

 

[GrumpyFan]

That has actually been in the plans for a very long time. In this photo you can see the proposed (red lines) roads making up the new interchange there. This is from the 1996 WDW master land use plan. The big hurdle in this project I think though is that since these particular roads happen to be on WDW owned property, WDW would have to pay for the road improvements and they probably just don't want to spend the money.

Interesting. Although it looks a bit jumbled too.
Wouldn't RCID be the ones to have to pay for this? Disney pays taxes to them to maintain the roads and infrastructure, so technically, yes they will pay for it, but not.

 

[s8film40]

Interesting. Although it looks a bit jumbled too.
Wouldn't RCID be the ones to have to pay for this? Disney pays taxes to them to maintain the roads and infrastructure, so technically, yes they will pay for it, but not.

While most of the roads are owned and maintained by RCID this particular road is owned by Disney and so they would be responsible for paying for any upgrades. The reason for this is Disney restricts access here with the toll plaza, if RCID owned the road they couldn't charge for parking at this location.

 

[Edeyore]

It is too bad that it is so expensive. This would be one of the greatest additions to the parks. I would imagine it would even add to the attraction of some of the other resorts. If there was a monorail station close to the All Star resorts, it would be just another reason to stay there. You wonder why they were able to do if for Epcot. It had to be expensive in 1982 also.

 

[Atkins]

Do to changes in technology and energy, I'd have to say the traditional wisdom that Disney would never invest more in another Monorail route is probably less true today than it was 20 years ago.

 

[Polydweller]

Do to changes in technology and energy, I'd have to say the traditional wisdom that Disney would never invest more in another Monorail route is probably less true today than it was 20 years ago.

The one thing that hasn't really changed is the track and that's the real construction cost. The sections have to be custom made for their locales and then set absolutely correctly on the supports. It's difficult and exacting. It's not like laying track for a railroad. It's the bulk of the minimum $30 million per mile to over $100 million per mile. The average tends to be around $80 million, but since Disney owns the land they would likely be below averag.

The real issue for Disney would be identifying a business advantage for such a large expeniditure. The monorail currently is not a revenue source. It's hard to envision where the business case is for this, and it isn't extra room sales at the resorts given Disney's occupancy rates. Just not enough extra room night sales available to justify the cost.

 

[Skibum1970]

Instead of a monorail, why not a light rail system with the rails on ground level? The trains could be themed to be like the monorail trains but actually just be light rail. I am not sure of the cost but the cost of building a ground level rail system has to be a lot less than a raised rail system. The light rail system could follow existing roads or, if not a threat to the wildlife and water drainage areas, could be routed through some of the woodlands.

Of course, I really wish that they would extend such a line all the way to the airport but that is wanting the impossible, or rather, improbable.

 

[Master Yoda]

Instead of a monorail, why not a light rail system with the rails on ground level? The trains could be themed to be like the monorail trains but actually just be light rail. I am not sure of the cost but the cost of building a ground level rail system has to be a lot less than a raised rail system. The light rail system could follow existing roads or, if not a threat to the wildlife and water drainage areas, could be routed through some of the woodlands.

Of course, I really wish that they would extend such a line all the way to the airport but that is wanting the impossible, or rather, improbable.

To many opportunities for interaction between guests and their vehicles.

 

[bhg469]

I wonder if all these people with so much knowledge about costs of building a monorail actually have an idea or if they are basing it on figures from forums. My opinion on it is they will get more positive reaction from a monorail than the would for a c ticket.