Screamscape - Monorail Expansion Rumor

StAug WDW fan

New Member
Expansion

i would love it if they expanded the monrail. One of the downsides to some of staying at some of the resorts is the bus service. We stayed at the Beach Club one year and seemed like we waited forever for the bus that service that resort.
 

orky8

Well-Known Member
combine the express rail and epcot rail, then expand to include HS and AK, using each park as a hub, combine this with your idea of unique transportation servicing each park's hotels. This would eliminate the trans and ticket center as a monorail destinaton, allowing guest to quickly park hop, increasing park hopper sales.

This is exactly what I think they should do. Here is my plan:

1) Combine Express/Epcot loop into one loop and expand to DHS and AK.
2) Move the Epcot station to the International Gateway, instantly turning the Epcot resorts essentially into monorail resorts. This alone, I think can very much help pay for this expansion with the increased price at those resorts.
3) Put switcher tracks at the North of the new Epcot and DHS stations.
4) For the TTC, Epcot, and DHS stations, there are now two platforms, one for each direction (North to MK or South to AK).
5) For the new TTC station, I've attached a diagram of how I would design that, but essentiall have a spur running in between the two platforms which allows for a monorail to quickly and easily be put into service to just run between the TTC and MK as needed. They can keep 2 (or more) trains sitting on this spur, ready to go as crowds dictate.
6) Tangential idea - Reduce bus service to be only hourly between resorts and parks, but on constant loop between the nearest hub and its related resorts. For example, busses will run a constant loop between AK, AKL, and All Star Resorts. Buses will only run hourly between those resorts and and the other theme parks.

7) Yes, this is a pipedream. And my diagrams below look like they were done by a two year old. But, alas.

Capture.JPG


TTC Design:

TTC.png
 

AndyMagic

Well-Known Member
That said, any fixed rail system does not work for the WDW traffic flow. They need something that is easily changed to fit the traffic.

This is one of the biggest misconceptions around these boards. "Fixed" rail systems are never as fixed as they seem. Why do people think WDW "traffic flow" is any different than rush-hour in the biggest cities in the world which use rail to get around. You add more trains to the track as rush hour ramps up from the terminals or you insert trains via spurs further along the track. It's done everywhere in the world. In fact it's been done for the last CENTURY in cities like London, Paris, and New York. This isn't rocket science here. Trains or any fixed-guideway system with its own right-of-way are monumentally more efficient at moving large sums of people quickly. There really isn't any debate about it.
 

s8film40

Well-Known Member
This is exactly what I think they should do. Here is my plan:

This is very similar to the idea I've had for some time. I would however remove the TTC completely. I think for a transportation system to be efficient the MK park & ride operation has to go to free up the resources. I made this diagram a while back to illustrate my idea.

 

WDWFREAK53

Well-Known Member
Charge people to ride the monorail that aren't staying at the resorts.

(People that park at the Magic Kingdom get a free ride to the Magic Kingdom on the Express Loop)
 

Kamikaze

Well-Known Member
combine the express rail and epcot rail, then expand to include HS and AK, using each park as a hub, combine this with your idea of unique transportation servicing each park's hotels. This would eliminate the trans and ticket center as a monorail destinaton, allowing guest to quickly park hop, increasing park hopper sales.

This is very similar to the idea I've had for some time. I would however remove the TTC completely. I think for a transportation system to be efficient the MK park & ride operation has to go to free up the resources. I made this diagram a while back to illustrate my idea.


Not enough capacity for a single rail to service two (or more) parks. At open/close those 340ish capacity trains fill up in a hurry. Imagine the complaining when the full trains from the previous park go whizzing by the other park on its way back to parking.

Each park has to have its own line back to a hub.

This is one of the biggest misconceptions around these boards. "Fixed" rail systems are never as fixed as they seem. Why do people think WDW "traffic flow" is any different than rush-hour in the biggest cities in the world which use rail to get around. You add more trains to the track as rush hour ramps up from the terminals or you insert trains via spurs further along the track. It's done everywhere in the world. In fact it's been done for the last CENTURY in cities like London, Paris, and New York. This isn't rocket science here. Trains or any fixed-guideway system with its own right-of-way are monumentally more efficient at moving large sums of people quickly. There really isn't any debate about it.

It isn't the same. Those systems in those cities run different trains for different routes. Not all the people are going the exact same direction at the same exact time. This would be like everyone in the NYSE getting on the same exact subway train at 4:40. They don't.

----

The other thing that never is considered in these threads are the OTHER things on WDW property that currently have buses. Most notably the water parks, but also you can get the bus from DAK to WWoS, so something would need to be available there. They wouldn't want to run a monorail loop all the way to WWoS since no one goes there.

The biggest problem is creating a system that doesn't use buses at all. If you're going to make a guest get on a bus to transfer to a monorail, might as well just have the bus take them to the park. So you're talking running the monorails to ALL the resorts. This means four 'main' loops, one for each park. You don't need monorail service from Epcot area resorts to Epcot or DHS, so thats a plus. You could probably place Coronado and AKL on the DAK line, which is also good. Might have to do a 'reserved cars' type of thing for guests of those resorts, but that wouldn't be a big deal.

As stated, you would turn Downtown Disney into sort of a 'TTC2' configuration as well, serving as a hub for DAK and DHS. Run one line between TTC and TTC2 for transfers, that gets people between the two places. Yes, they will have to transfer twice to get from MK to AK, but Epcot to DHS they could take the International Gateway to get between the parks.

Then you have to run loops from each of the resorts to each of the hubs - which means

1) MK area resorts - one new line to TTC2
2) Epcot area resorts - two new lines - one to DAK and one to TTC or direct to MK (remember, these resorts on the back side of Epcot - can't ALWAYS go through the park)
3) DAK and Coronado Springs - two new lines - TTC1, TTC2 (with loop to DAK)
4) Moderate resorts - two new lines TTC1, TTC2
5) Value resorts - two new lines - TTC1 and TTC2
6) Other attractions - can either build them into the nearby lines (not ideal) or build separate lines from the nearer TTC

Thats the major buildout. From there you can add on the other things I've missed. Maybe when I have some time I'll draw this up and estimate the number of miles.

Revision: Since Epcot is, in reality, so close to DTD, it would be better to run most of the Epcot traffic through there.
 

montyz81

Well-Known Member
Ordinally, yes thats true, but when the track is slide over, unlike the smooth curves of the normal loop, at the instant where the switch is there is an exact angle change, which is the problem for the trains, but not the mules. It would have been possible to make it happen, but would take a lot of more work, and down time, which they didnt want to afford.

So i wouldnt rule it out in the future. If they are willing to extend a line, it probably would be that switch is where they would start and re do it, since itd be a drop in the bucket compared to everything else...
Simple solution, move the spur down to the straight area of the track. I bet 200 feed down the line would have done it!
 

s8film40

Well-Known Member
Not enough capacity for a single rail to service two (or more) parks. At open/close those 340ish capacity trains fill up in a hurry. Imagine the complaining when the full trains from the previous park go whizzing by the other park on its way back to parking.

Each park has to have its own line back to a hub.

I think there is plenty of capacity. I did say you would have to remove the park & ride aspect to do this though so there would not be a train going to parking. It really would just be a shift in modes of transportation. You would shift the day guests at MK from using the monorail to now using tram to the parking garage, and then shift the non MK resort guests from the buses to the monorail. At the MK the monorails easily handle more guest flow than the buses. Ultimately this would result in much shorter lines for both day guests and resort guests. Also with the added length of the combined express line you would add quite a few more trains as well as sidings and additional station loading.
 

s8film40

Well-Known Member
Did you ever estimate what the transit time would be for such a system? Remembering you cant skip over trains in front of you so you must include station stops.

Yes for an expanded system like that you would "skip" trains. Some trains could make all stops while other "express" trains passed others along the way.
 

flynnibus

Premium Member
This is one of the biggest misconceptions around these boards. "Fixed" rail systems are never as fixed as they seem. Why do people think WDW "traffic flow" is any different than rush-hour in the biggest cities in the world which use rail to get around. You add more trains to the track as rush hour ramps up from the terminals or you insert trains via spurs further along the track. It's done everywhere in the world. In fact it's been done for the last CENTURY in cities like London, Paris, and New York. This isn't rocket science here. Trains or any fixed-guideway system with its own right-of-way are monumentally more efficient at moving large sums of people quickly. There really isn't any debate about it.

They are fixed in where they cover and expanding capacity is difficult because of the limited paths. What you are talking about isn't increasing capacity, but is actually about reducing capacity. They run under capacity at off times and ramp up to full capacity during peek. They cant keep adding without altering the system. They flex by running shorter trains and less trains.

No one debates trains are more capacity efficient along a set path - but that isn't the problem wdw has. Wdw's problem is the desire for a full mesh route map and people don't want to ride buses. That's what it boils down too.
 

Gregoryp73

Active Member
Try reading that list and find that more then 3/4s of those are not actual public transit systems, but airports, amusement parks, zoos, and other recreational sites. There are almost more Disney Parks then there are transit monorail systems in the Western world.

I wouldn't call a global count of less then 30 'quite popular'.

I never said buses were the most energy efficient - but that's not what makes or breaks a SYSTEM. Heavy Rail is by far the most energy efficient - but it doesn't work as a short-haul system, so it's pretty pointless to look at here, and its pointless to look at energy efficiency alone - one must look at the application and see what fits the need the best. And when talking labor, you keep thinking 'drivers' - it takes more than drivers to keep the whole system operational.


Correct...the application of a rail system (heavy, light, or rail) is to move alot of people to a few select locations. It is not flexible, I don't dispute that. And there are not alot of applications for that either. So it's a bit of a apples to oranges comparison...I agree that it would not be cost effective to web WDW's entire grid with monorails, or any type of rail...the cost of building that network would be insane. When WDW just had a few properties and one theme park location, it made sense to do this...so much so that they built a secondary network when they built epcot. They could have went with busses...they didn't. Buses didn't come into play until resorts were being built away from the monorail line.

Labor wise, WDW's monorail system has reliability of 99.9%...and the amount of support staff (engineers, mechanics, electricians, etc.) that would get paid higher than drivers I would think wouldn't be any more or less than the same people who fix and maintain buses. Yeah there would be a few more electricians...but they don't need 100 electricians for 14 miles of track.

In fact I would be surprised if they used more than 30 people to maintain their fleet of 10 monorails...and as for drivers, for 10 monorails they would have what? 50 pilots?

The only reason I keep bringing up drivers is because there are so many of them...if you had a factory that manufactured microchips and and you had 100 people who were paid an average of 100K...you got 10 mil in labor
Then had a factory that manufactured the box to hold those microchips had1600 people at an average of 25K...that would be 40 mil
 

flynnibus

Premium Member
Yes for an expanded system like that you would "skip" trains. Some trains could make all stops while other "express" trains passed others along the way.

His plan didn't call for station bypasses - that was part of the comment. Plus they would have to develop switches that can cycle much faster and new safety systems. The current designs cant simply be expanded in this fashion.
 

orky8

Well-Known Member
Did you ever estimate what the transit time would be for such a system? Remembering you cant skip over trains in front of you so you must include station stops.

Hmm, well, I only have 3 stops between MK and AK.

Currently MK to TTC takes 3:30ish (according to YouTube videos).
TTC to Epcot Takes 9 minutes (again, per YouTube videos).

The distance between International Gateway and AK is about the same as between TTC and Epcot.

Lets just estimate 24 minutes active travel time.

Each station stop should take no more than 90 seconds. I understand right now, they aren't run this efficiently, but it can and should be using automation for doors and drivers (ala Las Vegas monorail or your standard airport train system). So, 1.5 mins each for TTC, Epcot, and DHS stops.

These are what the travel times should be:
MK to Epcot (which now essentially serves the Epcot resorts as well): 17 mins
MK to DHS: 20 Mins
MK to AK: 30 Mins

As to skipping over trains, there is no need to. The system runs in both directions now, like a normal mass transit system. At the Epcot station you can go either North to MK or South to DHS and AK.
 

Gregoryp73

Active Member
This is very similar to the idea I've had for some time. I would however remove the TTC completely. I think for a transportation system to be efficient the MK park & ride operation has to go to free up the resources. I made this diagram a while back to illustrate my idea.


Why not just do a switch at epcot (like the TTC) that runs to AK and DHS. Then there is no adjustment to current track Just one new loop in and out of Epcots station. You wouldn't have to run it around SE either.
 

s8film40

Well-Known Member
His plan didn't call for station bypasses - that was part of the comment. Plus they would have to develop switches that can cycle much faster and new safety systems. The current designs cant simply be expanded in this fashion.

I think it is assumed that an expanded system like this would be modernized and be much more dynamic than the current one. The technology already exists. The Las Vegas system automatically switches every train at each end of the line all while the trains are loading and unloading. It happens so efficiently most passengers never even realize what's going on.

This happens every time a train enters the station, meanwhile another switching process is happening simultaneously at the other end.
http://youtu.be/xT80lCQQjGI
 

Did Knee

Active Member
Hmm, well, I only have 3 stops between MK and AK.

Currently MK to TTC takes 3:30ish (according to YouTube videos).
TTC to Epcot Takes 9 minutes (again, per YouTube videos).

The distance between International Gateway and AK is about the same as between TTC and Epcot.

Lets just estimate 24 minutes active travel time.

Each station stop should take no more than 90 seconds. I understand right now, they aren't run this efficiently, but it can and should be using automation for doors and drivers (ala Las Vegas monorail or your standard airport train system). So, 1.5 mins each for TTC, Epcot, and DHS stops.

These are what the travel times should be:
MK to Epcot (which now essentially serves the Epcot resorts as well): 17 mins
MK to DHS: 20 Mins
MK to AK: 30 Mins

As to skipping over trains, there is no need to. The system runs in both directions now, like a normal mass transit system. At the Epcot station you can go either North to MK or South to DHS and AK.

Very impressive. I like this whole idea. The only addition necessary is to position bypasses and tugs to pull dead trains off the track so they don't clog the system. As for the argument that there has to be a hub, I dispute that. Look at the NYC subway system. Oodles of people going in every direction with few real hubs, but it still gets them there efficiently.
 

s8film40

Well-Known Member
Hmm, well, I only have 3 stops between MK and AK.

Currently MK to TTC takes 3:30ish (according to YouTube videos).
TTC to Epcot Takes 9 minutes (again, per YouTube videos).

The distance between International Gateway and AK is about the same as between TTC and Epcot.

Lets just estimate 24 minutes active travel time.

Each station stop should take no more than 90 seconds. I understand right now, they aren't run this efficiently, but it can and should be using automation for doors and drivers (ala Las Vegas monorail or your standard airport train system). So, 1.5 mins each for TTC, Epcot, and DHS stops.

These are what the travel times should be:
MK to Epcot (which now essentially serves the Epcot resorts as well): 17 mins
MK to DHS: 20 Mins
MK to AK: 30 Mins

As to skipping over trains, there is no need to. The system runs in both directions now, like a normal mass transit system. At the Epcot station you can go either North to MK or South to DHS and AK.

I think you could add multiple loading areas in each station. So MK could simultaneously load 2 trains one to Epcot one to DAK & HS. At peak times you could load maybe one for each park. At 50 - 55MPH without slowing down for stops these times could probably be reduced to around 10 minutes for the longest stretch.
 

Kamikaze

Well-Known Member
Very impressive. I like this whole idea. The only addition necessary is to position bypasses and tugs to pull dead trains off the track so they don't clog the system. As for the argument that there has to be a hub, I dispute that. Look at the NYC subway system. Oodles of people going in every direction with few real hubs, but it still gets them there efficiently.

There has to be a hub because of cost. How do you get from your resort to the trains?
 

Register on WDWMAGIC. This sidebar will go away, and you'll see fewer ads.

Back
Top Bottom