Screamscape - Monorail Expansion Rumor

[Master Yoda]

Didnt some body climb on the tracks at DL and get run over, or was that a made up story?

It is true.

http://www.snopes.com/disney/parks/deaths.asp

 

[Engenie]

Vegas Mono Money Problems

I've been following this thread semi-closely and I just wanted to mention something that I haven't seen yet. A lot of people have been comparing the WDW monorail to the Vegas, and have seen claims that the Vegas ones are newer and more technologically advanced, which I will not dispute. BUT I wanted to point to the fact that the company controlling the Vegas monorail system filed for Ch. 11 Bankruptcy protection in January of 2010, and this past Nov. 2011, a judge rejected the Ch. 11 exit plan... in which they claim they could return to profitability in 2019. So I do think that those 'bean counters' that everyone likes to bash at Disney are actually doing something right, when they are being compared to another monorail line that is currently in bankruptcy and has an unknown future....

 

[s8film40]

I've been following this thread semi-closely and I just wanted to mention something that I haven't seen yet. A lot of people have been comparing the WDW monorail to the Vegas, and have seen claims that the Vegas ones are newer and more technologically advanced, which I will not dispute. BUT I wanted to point to the fact that the company controlling the Vegas monorail system filed for Ch. 11 Bankruptcy protection in January of 2010, and this past Nov. 2011, a judge rejected the Ch. 11 exit plan... in which they claim they could return to profitability in 2019. So I do think that those 'bean counters' that everyone likes to bash at Disney are actually doing something right, when they are being compared to another monorail line that is currently in bankruptcy and has an unknown future....

The Las Vegas monorail does operate with positive income, they just haven't been able to pay off the initial build costs fast enough. There is also the issue of the full plan not being implemented to include the airport which most agree will create a huge increase in revenue for the monorail. Ironically they can't move forward with this plan until the bankruptcy is over. That being said The las Vegas monorail is a very different dynamic than the WDW system. They had to pay for the land this made up a large portion of their initial costs. They also operate completely independently the monorail is not part of a master planned resort and must generate all it's revenue from rider fare and advertising, they don't get money from hotel rooms and theme park tickets. So you really can't compare the WDW monorail to the Las Vegas monorail in the financial sense. Now from the technological point of view it's been a huge success. It's pushed the monorail technology far ahead and shown what monorails can do. This is likely the reason that Bombardier was awarded the huge monorail contract for Brazil as well as the one for Saudi Arabia.

Monorails are proving themselves on their own just fine, they left the dated system that we know from WDW in the past some time ago.

 

[Engenie]

The Las Vegas monorail does operate with positive income, they just haven't been able to pay off the initial build costs fast enough. There is also the issue of the full plan not being implemented to include the airport which most agree will create a huge increase in revenue for the monorail. Ironically they can't move forward with this plan until the bankruptcy is over. That being said The las Vegas monorail is a very different dynamic than the WDW system. They had to pay for the land this made up a large portion of their initial costs. They also operate completely independently the monorail is not part of a master planned resort and must generate all it's revenue from rider fare and advertising, they don't get money from hotel rooms and theme park tickets. So you really can't compare the WDW monorail to the Las Vegas monorail in the financial sense. Now from the technological point of view it's been a huge success. It's pushed the monorail technology far ahead and shown what monorails can do. This is likely the reason that Bombardier was awarded the huge monorail contract for Brazil as well as the one for Saudi Arabia.

Monorails are proving themselves on their own just fine, they left the dated system that we know from WDW in the past some time ago.

I think your proving my point more... I agree the technology is great, and it has advanced, but that's no reason to risk so much on... and you make it sound as if Disney has a ton of money laying around to spend, when the largest Monorail projects in the world are taking place in two massive countries, both being heavily subsidized by national gov'ts for special events, urbanization, and environmental improvements. I'm sorry but I think its semi-ignorant to be making such claims when not all the facts are known to the public, and monorails themselves are a very high risk venture to join in to now, as compared to 40 years ago. I'm not saying yea or nay, I'm just throwing other facts out there and playing devil's advocate. I would love to ride (or design new monorail beams myself ) but we need to be real about it.

You can't blindly claim Disney's is different or better when I personally believe its relationship is more complex. In Vegas there is one body solely devoted to the monorail and nothing else, yet Disney is a massive company that has to worry about parks, hotels, other transportation systems, so to divert money from these places to a monorail, will cause losses elsewhere, the money is finite. And the Vegas monorail plan is up for another review on April 30 to determine its emergence from bankruptcy, so in the near future there may be some news about it.

I just think more needs to be known from the data on the inside before you can make such a grandiose claim that monorails have advanced so much when there doesn't seem to be many facts to point that way, other than two massive countries and/or cities building their own vs. a relatively little property in Florida...

 

[s8film40]

I think your proving my point more... I agree the technology is great, and it has advanced, but that's no reason to risk so much on... and you make it sound as if Disney has a ton of money laying around to spend, when the largest Monorail projects in the world are taking place in two massive countries, both being heavily subsidized by national gov'ts for special events, urbanization, and environmental improvements. I'm sorry but I think its semi-ignorant to be making such claims when not all the facts are known to the public, and monorails themselves are a very high risk venture to join in to now, as compared to 40 years ago. I'm not saying yea or nay, I'm just throwing other facts out there and playing devil's advocate. I would love to ride (or design new monorail beams myself ) but we need to be real about it.

You can't blindly claim Disney's is different or better when I personally believe its relationship is more complex. In Vegas there is one body solely devoted to the monorail and nothing else, yet Disney is a massive company that has to worry about parks, hotels, other transportation systems, so to divert money from these places to a monorail, will cause losses elsewhere, the money is finite. And the Vegas monorail plan is up for another review on April 30 to determine its emergence from bankruptcy, so in the near future there may be some news about it.

I just think more needs to be known from the data on the inside before you can make such a grandiose claim that monorails have advanced so much when there doesn't seem to be many facts to point that way, other than two massive countries and/or cities building their own vs. a relatively little property in Florida...

As far as monorails advancing I am talking about the technology, and yes they have come a very long way. Bombardier has redesigned WDW's original design inside and out from converting from DC to AC, new motor technology, new bogie designs, new walkthrough train designs, new automation systems, new monitoring systems, new switches, and a large number of other more technical advancements that aren't as visibly apparent.

I agree that I don't think Disney want's to put much into monorails at this time and absolutely it is a much more dynamic proposition than what is being passed back and forth here. It would be a very large and costly undertaking. My only point of view is that myself as a long time fan and continuing customer of WDW this is what I want from WDW and what I expect. Now if they wanted to they could put the resources into this instead of the Next Gen project which from my understanding has a budget somewhere in the neighborhood of what a project like this would take. I suppose some people would rather have the Next Gen stuff than monorails and there are some who would rather have monorails. Ultimately this is Disney's decision to make and I respect that, I just don't have the level of interest I would otherwise in WDW. Time will tell if this was the right decision or the wrong one and it may be revisited at any point in the future. I, however will continue to hope that Disney will create a product that I can enjoy to the fullest and if they don't I will just end up saving a little money.

 

[nace888]

People say Walt was all for different and unique, in my perspective, having a monorail pilot is unique. Since everyone is starting to go automatic, I would say having a pilot is classic... People want to upgrade the system? Do what DisneyLand has done to their Monorail system... Install cameras, upgrade the look, it could be done without going automatic. I am sure if there were to be an expansion, they would tweak these things here and there, but it's no guarantee they'd go automatic.

 

[s8film40]

People say Walt was all for different and unique, in my perspective, having a monorail pilot is unique. Since everyone is starting to go automatic, I would say having a pilot is classic... People want to upgrade the system? Do what DisneyLand has done to their Monorail system... Install cameras, upgrade the look, it could be done without going automatic. I am sure if there were to be an expansion, they would tweak these things here and there, but it's no guarantee they'd go automatic.

If I hadn't visited the Las Vegas monorail I would probably be saying the same thing as you, but to see a system run so much more efficiently really changed my outlook. Believe me I will miss having pilots probably more than anyone. To me the monorail is a symbol of the future however and with that it makes sense to embrace the technological improvements. Now at Disneyland where they have gone back to a more retro style, pilots make since and hopefully we will always have that there.

I know that this is disappointing for you but this is going to happen, it's already being looked at for the current system. They may not ever expand the system but one thing that's only a matter of time is automation.

 

[flynnibus]

What I don't get is where is all this traffic people talk about or buses being at capacity? Wdw has less traffic than my local streets any day of the week. I've never seen anything id even call traffic there

 

[s8film40]

What I don't get is where is all this traffic people talk about or buses being at capacity? Wdw has less traffic than my local streets any day of the week. I've never seen anything id even call traffic there

Mostly Buena Vista Drive, this is the reason it is being widened right now. Keep in mind its a six lane road with lots of traffic lights that services almost half of the key areas on property. It can get very bad but can be fairly easily avoided especially if your not at one of the hotels right on it.

 

[BalooChicago]

cais·son [ káy sòn ]
1.underwater work chamber: a bottomless watertight chamber filled with compressed air, used as a base from which construction work is carried out underwater
2.float to raise ships: a hollow structure attached to a sunken object such as a wrecked ship, then pumped full of air until it acts as a float, raising the object to the surface
3.water block: a floating watertight structure used to keep water from entering a dry dock, canal lock, or basin

What would they do with caisson's with the monorail?

You're missing one. Caissons are a form of a deep foundation system (Also called drilled piers).

caisson foundation [′kā‚sän fou̇n′dā·shən]
(civil engineering)
A shaft of concrete placed under a building column or wall and extending down to hardpan or rock. Also known as pier foundation.
McGraw-Hill Dictionary of Scientific & Technical Terms, 6E, Copyright © 2003 by The McGraw-Hill Companies, Inc.

 

[orky8]

It is true.

http://www.snopes.com/disney/parks/deaths.asp

I still don't think this changes my statement that there is a difference between automating monorails and boats/trains/cars. To end up on a monorail track you have to go through a lot of effort to purposefully put yourself there. That person was attempting to trespass into Disneyland. That sorta proves my point.

It still baffles me that the point nace is hung-up on would be the loss of the pilots (as if there is even a chance Disney will expand the system anyway). I'd trade a pilot for an open window at the front in a heartbeat.

As to the profitability and comparing to LV profitabiilty, those are entirely different. The Las Vegas monorail was built to be profitable by charging a fare. The WDW monorail is build to (1) offer transportation free of charge to Disney guests and (2) serve as a cool and iconic attractions. All the busses, boats, monorails at Disney World are not profitable because they are free. BUT, Disney nonetheless see value in those items by encouraging people to stay and spend money on property. They are entirely different business models. In Las Vegas, they have to calculate whether raising fares by 50 cents would cause a decrease in ridership. In Disney World, they need to calculate whether having monorail service at a hotel will allow them to charge more per night for a room. Whether expanding the monorails will foster more money spent on property, and how much more, or more park hopper sales, and how much more, and could they charge more for park hoppers, and how much more. Those questions are much, much harder to answer than a simple calculas of fares vs ridership. Not to mention then calculating how much that compares to busses and road expansion, because Disney provides those as well.

Finally, one last comment. Not everything at Disney should be looked at in terms of its own profitability. For example, one of Lee's major gripes, that I agree with, is the loss of appropriately themed gift shops. While the magic shop or the adventureland shop with specific items may not be profitable, they used to be part of the show and what made Disney, Disney. You take those things away for short-term profitability, but sacrifice the quality of your total package you may find yourself ultimately losing customers. This is where many on these boards think Disney is at these days, as we find ourselves reminiscing of the Disney we grew up on, and wondering if the value is still there. For me (and most here), I very much enjoy my time at Disney, but I'm not wowed like I used to be. I find myself cutting back, putting more time between trips, and considering spending some time and money off-site in future trips, and its largely because things like this.

20 years ago, there would have been no debate about expansion of the monorail to the four parks and DTD. It was simply understood that that was the type of product Disney offered.

 

[Master Yoda]

I still don't think this changes my statement that there is a difference between automating monorails and boats/trains/cars. To end up on a monorail track you have to go through a lot of effort to purposefully put yourself there. That person was attempting to trespass into Disneyland. That sorta proves my point.

It still baffles me that the point nace is hung-up on would be the loss of the pilots (as if there is even a chance Disney will expand the system anyway). I'd trade a pilot for an open window at the front in a heartbeat.

As to the profitability and comparing to LV profitabiilty, those are entirely different. The Las Vegas monorail was built to be profitable by charging a fare. The WDW monorail is build to (1) offer transportation free of charge to Disney guests and (2) serve as a cool and iconic attractions. All the busses, boats, monorails at Disney World are not profitable because they are free. BUT, Disney nonetheless see value in those items by encouraging people to stay and spend money on property. They are entirely different business models. In Las Vegas, they have to calculate whether raising fares by 50 cents would cause a decrease in ridership. In Disney World, they need to calculate whether having monorail service at a hotel will allow them to charge more per night for a room. Whether expanding the monorails will foster more money spent on property, and how much more, or more park hopper sales, and how much more, and could they charge more for park hoppers, and how much more. Those questions are much, much harder to answer than a simple calculas of fares vs ridership. Not to mention then calculating how much that compares to busses and road expansion, because Disney provides those as well.

Finally, one last comment. Not everything at Disney should be looked at in terms of its own profitability. For example, one of Lee's major gripes, that I agree with, is the loss of appropriately themed gift shops. While the magic shop or the adventureland shop with specific items may not be profitable, they used to be part of the show and what made Disney, Disney. You take those things away for short-term profitability, but sacrifice the quality of your total package you may find yourself ultimately losing customers. This is where many on these boards think Disney is at these days, as we find ourselves reminiscing of the Disney we grew up on, and wondering if the value is still there. For me (and most here), I very much enjoy my time at Disney, but I'm not wowed like I used to be. I find myself cutting back, putting more time between trips, and considering spending some time and money off-site in future trips, and its largely because things like this.

20 years ago, there would have been no debate about expansion of the monorail to the four parks and DTD. It was simply understood that that was the type of product Disney offered.

We can talk about "What Walt would do", pixie dust and unicorns but monorail expansion comes down to just a few simple factors. Will it save the company money or is it a necessity. Until one of those two things happen or some outside company comes in willing to pick up the tab, the monorail system will remain as is.

 

[PhilharMagician]

You're missing one. Caissons are a form of a deep foundation system (Also called drilled piers).

caisson foundation [′kā‚sän fou̇n′dā·shən]
(civil engineering)
A shaft of concrete placed under a building column or wall and extending down to hardpan or rock. Also known as pier foundation.
McGraw-Hill Dictionary of Scientific & Technical Terms, 6E, Copyright © 2003 by The McGraw-Hill Companies, Inc.

I did not know that drilled piers are also called caisson foundations, but a "caisson" is technically a container and a "caisson foundation" is a foundation built using a caisson.

 

[orky8]

We can talk about "What Walt would do", pixie dust and unicorns but monorail expansion comes down to just a few simple factors. Will it save the company money or is it a necessity. Until one of those two things happen or some outside company comes in willing to pick up the tab, the monorail system will remain as is.

Oh, I completely agree. I'm just complaining. Its not even what would Walt do. When EPCOT opened, this is what the company would have done (and did do).

I'm also complaining because I believe investment in your product makes the company money. Instead of would it save money, the question should be, would doing this futher our product along and make it more valuable. This, obviuosly, is not the way current management thinks. And perhaps, they shouldn't, as each year they charge more and provide less, and people (including most here and myself) keep coming. But ultimately, as we've seen time after time with companies that rest on their laurels, the piper will have to be paid.

 

[Master Yoda]

Oh, I completely agree. I'm just complaining. Its not even what would Walt do. When EPCOT opened, this is what the company would have done (and did do).

I'm also complaining because I believe investment in your product makes the company money. Instead of would it save money, the question should be, would doing this futher our product along and make it more valuable. This, obviuosly, is not the way current management thinks. And perhaps, they shouldn't, as each year they charge more and provide less, and people (including most here and myself) keep coming. But ultimately, as we've seen time after time with companies that rest on their laurels, the piper will have to be paid.

The thing is we as interested and educated fans at best might have, at best, 50% of the information needed to make a truly educated decision on if monorail expansion would be a good or bad thing. Those that are pushing for expansion do so more out of love for the system than it being a truly practical solution. Disney, on the other hand, has about 95% of that information and has not expanded the system in 30 years. From what I can tell the look at the option every so often and keep coming to the same conclusion. That leads me to believe expansion is not a fiscally responsible move.

Now don't get me wrong, I would love to see every Disney bus parked and be able to get into a people mover style pod press a button and get anywhere on property. But, until technology like that becomes less expensive than a bus, a bus is what Disney is going to go with.

 

[thehowiet]

If I hadn't visited the Las Vegas monorail I would probably be saying the same thing as you, but to see a system run so much more efficiently really changed my outlook. Believe me I will miss having pilots probably more than anyone. To me the monorail is a symbol of the future however and with that it makes sense to embrace the technological improvements. Now at Disneyland where they have gone back to a more retro style, pilots make since and hopefully we will always have that there.

I know that this is disappointing for you but this is going to happen, it's already being looked at for the current system. They may not ever expand the system but one thing that's only a matter of time is automation.

I have to agree with you regarding the LV Monorail. It is super efficient. Before riding the LV system, I always thought there should be a monorail pilot for WDW. Now that they don't allow riding in the front cab (and I'm guessing never will again), I'm not sure I feel as strongly about having to have a pilot. I still think having an actual person "piloting" this futuristic "highway in the sky" does add to the experience, but an automated system is even more futuristic I guess. It's definitely a tough call for me.

Have there really already been discussions about automating the current system? If so, I'd love to hear more details if you don't mind sharing.

 

[jt04]

We can talk about "What Walt would do", pixie dust and unicorns but monorail expansion comes down to just a few simple factors. Will it save the company money or is it a necessity. Until one of those two things happen or some outside company comes in willing to pick up the tab, the monorail system will remain as is.

Interesting thought Master Yoda. Perhaps if Disney was to put out to bid the transportation system with the idea of building out such a system including parking structures, monorail expansion, new busses etc etc they may find some very interested investors. I could imagine such a system working very well and turning a healthy profit.

 

[Master Yoda]

Interesting thought Master Yoda. Perhaps if Disney was to put out to bid the transportation system with the idea of building out such a system including parking structures, monorail expansion, new busses etc etc they may find some very interested investors. I could imagine such a system working very well and turning a healthy profit.

Not if it is free. As far as the typically "It will lead to more work somewhere else" idea, ask any graphic designer how well those deals work out.

 

[orky8]

The thing is we as interested and educated fans at best might have, at best, 50% of the information needed to make a truly educated decision on if monorail expansion would be a good or bad thing. Those that are pushing for expansion do so more out of love for the system than it being a truly practical solution. Disney, on the other hand, has about 95% of that information and has not expanded the system in 30 years. From what I can tell the look at the option every so often and keep coming to the same conclusion. That leads me to believe expansion is not a fiscally responsible move.

Now don't get me wrong, I would love to see every Disney bus parked and be able to get into a people mover style pod press a button and get anywhere on property. But, until technology like that becomes less expensive than a bus, a bus is what Disney is going to go with.

We mostly agree. But when EPCOT was built, was putting the monorail line from TTC to Epcot a fiscally responsible move? Perhaps they thought no one would go there without the monorail (and, at the time there weren't hotels all across property), but even back then, I think the answer would have been no. A bus line would have been fiscally responsible. The making of Snow White was incredibly NOT fiscally responsible. Disneyland was NOT fiscally responsible. Yes, i know, pixie dust, and unicorns. But the point remains, when companies just look at fiscally responsible and ignore quality of product, they will ultimately lose their customer. WDW is clearly not at that point yet, but that seems to be the direction.

The big 3 automakers were unstopable, until they weren't. Yahoo! was the search engine to use, until it wasn't. Macs were just for fanboys and geeks... Disney World and Disneyland were untouchable in terms of product quality, but they aren't anymore.

I don't disagree with what you are saying. You are dead-on with how current management thinks. But the monorail was never about fiscal responsibility and until Disney stops trying to calculate whether a monorail expansion would be cheaper than a bus expansion, and starts trying to calculate whether a monorail expansion would increase the value of its product, there will be no expansion. And that is unfortunate, because I believe the value is there (but of course, as you said, I at best have only 50% of the information).

 

[erasure fan1]

Now don't get me wrong, I would love to see every Disney bus parked and be able to get into a people mover style pod press a button and get anywhere on property. But, until technology like that becomes less expensive than a bus, a bus is what Disney is going to go with.

Oh man that has the Incredibles transit system written all over it! :lookaroun