Project Gemini Revealed

[General Grizz]

Originally posted by Dr Albert Falls
Also---for those of you who have seen Cranium Command--- could you name a more bypassed, desolate, unattended, and dated attraction at WDW?

Indeed I could! I was at Cranium Command yesterday and the audience was 3/4 full. Laughter filled the audience during each of the jokes and puns; everyone seemed to enjoy themselves. Although it made have been made 10 years ago, Cranium Command is still entertaining to hundreds of EPCOT guests.

Originally posted by Dr Albert Falls
Epcot can be a museum to the 1980's--- or it can be a cutting-edge glimpse into the future.

I don't think Buzzy was saying EPCOT should be a museum. But I agree with him in the point that we're losing a lot of the quality. In fact, I would RATHER have Journey into Imagination original (that's right! 80s technology!) than the current 6 minute 'adventure.' In fact, by its opening JII had more SFX than any other attraction! Our current ride, built *[20]* years later? Well...let's not go there.

Gemini isn't the only possibility. And I don't think it's worth the risk of the entire essence of Future World.

 

[General Grizz]

Originally posted by Dizknee_Phreek
wonderfully put! and i agree!! we haven't seen an area update with the quality of New Tomorrowland in a LONG time! though, Mickey's Toontown Fair has a fairly good standing in its own right, considering how it was before its most recent update.
but i consider Illuminations 2000 and ToN to be of extremely high quality and i can tell that there was much time and thought put into both displays. both are (or at least was in the case of ToN) very creative with original scores that are both memorable and inspiring. now, if Disney could just put that kind of thought and energy into their attractions, they may have another classic on their hands! but until they realize where they're going wrong, the attractions and other various updates (shows, areas, etc) won't rise above being merely adaquate.

Very intriguing, Phreek. Indeed...the entertainment has been superior (RoE, Fantasmic, etc) - and I hope it can inspire them as much as it does us.

 

[Dizknee_Phreek]

Originally posted by Dr Albert Falls
Also---for those of you who have seen Cranium Command--- could you name a more bypassed, desolate, unattended, and dated attraction at WDW?

well, i could name at least one...body wars. and maybe the land, but it's been a long time since i rode that.

[/B][/QUOTE]For being the most dominant structure on the Epcot skyline, I don't see people beelining from World Showcase mid-afternoon to ride it.[/B][/QUOTE]

now i don't claim to be an expert on why certain attractions are ridden different times of day, but have you seen the line for SSE early in the day? it's a pretty good queue! my thoughts as to why guests don't beeline for it in the mid-afternoon is because it's the first thing they come to in the morning and maybe most people ride it then and go on doing other things. that may be stretching it a bit, but it's possible.
i mean, look at the queues for HM and PotC...they're not jam-packed all day long, but they're still considered classics, and hugely popular.

[/B][/QUOTE]Horizons and World of Motion may have been impressive during the early 80's--- but I doubt most families are going to pack up the car and drive hundreds of miles and spend thousands of dollars to re-visit those same "been-there-done-that" attractions.[/B][/QUOTE]

and PotC and HM were impressive in the 70's. i know they're different from Epcot attractions because they deal with the timeless theme of fantasy and not the ever changing future...but the principle's the same, in my eyes.
but i think you could be slightly mistaken with the other part of your statement. my family and i have been packing up the car, driving hundreds of miles, and spending thousands of dollars for the past 11 years straight (sometimes more than once a year) and we've known many more families that do the same thing. and it's not for the attractions...it's for the memories and the times spent as a family. if families are going JUST for the attractions, then i think they may be missing the point of Disney all together.

now, please, don't misread this as me trying to be a smart a**, because i'm not trying to be. i'm simply stating my opinion on the matters at hand.

 

[dxwwf3]

I love the Wonders of Life pavilion and I enjoy Body Wars and Cranium Command. But this whole pavilian is really starting to show its age. The whole place seems so dated for some reason and doesn't stand the test of time like other things created in this period. And the past few times I've been there it has seemed like a ghost town. Maybe with Mission Space opening it will increase the crowd flow here.

As far as Project Gemini goes it sounds good to me. Really the Epcot of the 80's is gone and is frankly never coming back. I bought my "Old School" Epcot merchandise last trip and wear it proudly because that was the Epcot of my childhood and I loved it. But times have changed and now all of the special songs at Future World have been replaced so it really doesn't feel the same anyways. As much as I hate to say it now every time I look at Mission Space in the park I don't think of Horizons and sadly really don't miss it that much because I know what lies there now is probably the best attraction on Disney property. I really think Epcot needs this change. Attendence has been down and adding some great thrill rides will not only give Disney a great competetor to IOA, it will also simply greatly improve the park. And my goodness we stoped going to The Living Seas years ago. That DEFINATELY needs a change. Now maybe they could add a slow moving ride to World Showcase and bring back the old (and FAR superior) Illuminations to help give some nostalgic feel. But I am probably embracing Project Gemini more than others because I really think that Disney is getting on the right track with Mission Space and I really think they can improve Epcot immensely.

 

[kennyj29]

I also would pack up the car and come to Disney not matter what but I disagree that those attractions should still be there. I love the fact that Epcot will change (as it should and as Walt wanted it). If you were lucky enough to see the old pavilions than it's something you will never forget but if not, you don't miss what you don't know. You have to go with change, because whether any one wants to admit it or not, you would be getting excited about seeing what they've just done. Don't say it won't be good because you don't know that! You would be going with a closed mind and no matter what you see, you would hate it. I think the fact that this park will change is what makes it interesting and what makes me go back to Epcot. Honestly, the only reason we go is to see the countries. But since they started changing future world, it's much more interesting. I agree also, that the first JII was the best, the second was just awful and the third is fine. It will never be as good as the first but it's a little different. Spaceship earth might be full when people first get in the park but then it's empty the rest of the time. That needs change also.

 

[dxwwf3]

Another thing I want to emphasize is in my mind Future World died a few years ago. Whenever Listen to the Land became Living With The Land and they dropped the song, when Test Track replaced World of Motion, When the Universe of Energy dropped their two great songs, when Journey Into Imagination changed, etc... So this chance shouldn't be a big of a deal now. BUT if this change was coming and Epcot was basically the same as it was in say 93 THEN I would be a little suspicious. To me alot of the work for Project Gemini has already taken place. Again this is just the way I feel. To me the Future World now isn't really "Future World" at all.

 

[General Grizz]

Originally posted by dxwwf3
I love the Wonders of Life pavilion and I enjoy Body Wars and Cranium Command. But this whole pavilian is really starting to show its age.

WOL will be going down soon. But guess what...DIsney has NO plans to update it. That's the problem. The pavilion is still fresh, and is constantly being refurbished. Cranium Command was in fresh quality. However, although technology could be updated...it won't be because they don't WANT to update it!

Originally posted by dxwwf3
But times have changed and now all of the special songs at Future World have been replaced

What do you mean? There ARE no new songs!

Originally posted by dxwwf3
...and adding some great thrill rides will not only give Disney a great competetor to IOA

Why DOES Disney need to compete with IOA? The parks are strictly higher on the attendance list - and frankly, Disney should retain its own likeness and not worry about IOA. Say...Splash Mountain?

I don't mean to attack you. But these are the small things that exist. You have excellent ideas, so I am sorry if I gave you the wrong impression.

 

[General Grizz]

Again, sorry if I am being nit-picky.

Originally posted by kennyj29
I love the fact that Epcot will change (as it should and as Walt wanted it).

Walt would not want change, per say. But Walt would want progress. - there's a MAJOR difference. Just because something new is coming, that does not mean that Walt Disney would be happy about it. Many of the late EPCOT attractions emphasized a vision he cared for so much...and that vision was lost with the replacement. He may not have liked that change. In fact, he may have hated it. That's one of the many issues involving Project Gemini.

Furthermore, many of the newer attractions are not living nearly up to what could be (in this case, quality, meaning, and diversity in output). If these things could only be changed - but increased in standard - I would not fear. But, this is the way things have been done for the last 8 or so years...and it's what is currently in the rumor mill for Gemini.

Sure. Change attractions. But don't change the foundations and essence.

And...that's what their goal is in changing.

 

[dxwwf3]

Originally posted by grizzlyhall
WOL will be going down soon. But guess what...DIsney has NO plans to update it. That's the problem. The pavilion is still fresh, and is constantly being refurbished. Cranium Command was in fresh quality. However, although technology could be updated...it won't be because they don't WANT to update it!



What do you mean? There ARE no new songs!



Why DOES Disney need to compete with IOA? The parks are strictly higher on the attendance list - and frankly, Disney should retain its own likeness and not worry about IOA. Say...Splash Mountain?

I don't mean to attack you. But these are the small things that exist. You have excellent ideas, so I am sorry if I gave you the wrong impression.

I know you aren't attacking. And yes the songs have been replaced its just THERE ARE NO WORDS in the new songs and they are not catchy at that. It's called score. And about IOA did Disney really need something to compete with Sea World (cough couch Living Seas), Universal Studios Florida (cough cough Disney MGM Studios), Bush Gardens (cough cough Animal Kingdom). Catch my drift? It's just smart business. Whenever something new and great comes out somewhere else Disney is going to try to create something like it to help keep people on Disney property and they won't go to the other parks. If Disney had some more extreme thrill rides I might not have to leave property once a year and spend my money at IOA. And isn't that Disney's goal. Once you get on Disney property they want to have everything there to where you DO NOT WANT to leave property. It's not being greedy. Again its just smart business. And yes Disney can learn some things from IOA. IOA is really the best non Disney theme park in the world and is sort of like the Magic Kingdom on steriods. The theming (while not quite Disney like) is really good and the rides are wonderful. And while the attendence might not be up there right now I think everyone knows IOA is definately a great THEME park and people enjoy the park as much as any Disney park.

 

[General Grizz]

Originally posted by dxwwf3
I know you aren't attacking. And yes the songs have been replaced its just THERE ARE NO WORDS in the new songs and they are not catchy at that. It's called score.

And likewise, there have been scores in the 1980s: EPCOT Entrance, Communicore, UoE, The Horizons Score (Space, etc.), The Living Seas...

But right now...it's NO song at ALL. And that's where the problem is in the musical sense. "Imaaaaaaaaaaaaaagination..." - remember when we almost lost that one?

Originally posted by dxwwf3
And about IOA did Disney really need something to compete with Sea World (cough couch Living Seas), Universal Studios Florida (cough cough Disney MGM Studios), Bush Gardens (cough cough Animal Kingdom).

Disney-MGM opened before Universal and The Living Seas was a concept at EPCOT since the mid-70s. Yet, they remain Disneyesque and original despite the parks that currently exist. In most cases, the Universal parks directs things off Disney (Men In Black, Shrek, for a few examples).

Disney can continue its original thrill style, but we're getting less Disney 'quality' when it comes to it (hence, Test Track). That's why I mentioned Splash Mountain earlier...it has a bit of everything.

 

[Lord Alfred]

Disney can continue its original thrill style, but we're getting less Disney 'quality' when it comes to it (hence, Test Track).

I'll never understand the anti-Test Track feelings some people have. It's one of my wife and I's favorite rides in all of WDW. It's educational and fun. My only complaint is the ride system's bad days when it goes down a lot. But as far as I'm concerned it is a great ride that maintains the educational mandate of the park while "hooking" the masses that don't care to learn a thing. I've been going to WDW since 1980 and you won't find a bigger Epcot fan but to me WoM was one of the weakest pavillions in FW. The corny humorous approach to the subject was lame and "It's fun to be free" is the ONLY FW song that always skip on the CD. Test Track was the best thing that ever happened to that building.

All my opinion, of course.

 

[Buzzy989]

EPCOT: Rediscovering Discovery

In reading the many previous messages posted, I have thought of several remarks I would like to make. . .

First of all, GrizzlyHall declared, "Walt would not want change, per se. But Walt would want progress -- there's a MAJOR difference." Mission:SPACE and Test Track, in a sense, are revered EPCOT attractions not simply because they are replacements for "dated," more traditional rides. Rather, they bring entirely new concepts and techniques to the forefront, and are extremely innovative without encroaching upon the park's atmosphere (a topic I explored in my first post in this thread). The Rainforest Rollercoaster, however, appears to be a mere moneymaking machine, which will unlikely be contributing to the enrichment of park guests. Remember, EPCOT was once a place where the line between theme park and innovative laboratory was blurred -- this has always been best exemplified by The Land. Now, this pavilion will possibly be marred by an attraction which appears to make little, if any, creative or intellectual progress. GrizzlyHall is right on track. . .in order for EPCOT to achieve a noble end that's not strictly economic, constructive PROGRESS, not mere change, is the key.

Now, Albert Falls commented, "Except for [Cranium Command's] most die-hard fans, NOBODY pays attention to it (and don't say its because Disney doesn't promote it enough)." Well, it's true, Cranium Command probably does need replacement after all. But when I hailed this attraction as one infused with heart, creativity, humor, and clever educativeness, I was attempting to highlight the key qualities which the recent string of new attraction concepts seems to be lacking (not assert that Cranium should never be changed). Good, clean humor is the best means to simultaneously educate and entertain -- it's also the hardest thing to write. The whimsical, comic qualities of World of Motion, Cranium Command, and even Horizons are not finding their due replacements. . .and the Disney Creative Team should revive this old spirit. Personally, I don't think Mission:SPACE, Rainforest Rollercoaster, or Time Racers seem very comical. This is not to attack the potential quality of these rides at all, but to signal that everything can't be thrill after thrill. Where are the basic human elements in a park which was founded to celebrate humanity?

Project Gemini should not completely "change the face of EPCOT," as the slogan goes. What we have now, in terms of the park atmosphere and layout, is sheer genius and truly works. After all, EPCOT received the highest consumer ratings among all U.S. theme parks in a recent issue of Consumer Reports. The basic premise of EPCOT needs to be upheld. . .and reflected in new attractions that contain genuine heart and general appeal.

 

[TrevEG]

A quick question on WoL. I've been hearing rumors floating around that this pavillion was going to be shut down and left vacant (a VERY bad idea imhp). Then I hear something on this post about it going down shortly. Then I buy the new birnbaums (sp?) 2003 guide and under the WoL section it says "may not be open" or something along those lines. Is this going to happen soon? Will it ever open again? Any thoughts?

 

[Big Pooh]

Originally posted by grizzlyhall
Disney-MGM opened before Universal and The Living Seas was a concept at EPCOT since the mid-70s. Yet, they remain Disneyesque and original despite the parks that currently exist. In most cases, the Universal parks directs things off Disney (Men In Black, Shrek, for a few examples).

Disney can continue its original thrill style, but we're getting less Disney 'quality' when it comes to it (hence, Test Track). That's why I mentioned Splash Mountain earlier...it has a bit of everything.

Disney MGM opened before Universal because it was rushed through production. It opened with TWO rides, GMR and The Backlot Tour. If they had taken the time to open a full park there's no way they could have gotten it open before Universal. To this day it's still not a full day park. I'm not an MGM basher by a long shot, in fact I think it's a great park. Two of my top 5 rides in all of WDW are at MGM. I also agree with Lord Alfred about TT. A lot of people on this and other boards bash TT a LOT. It's a wonderful ride. What's not to like...Most anyone 5 years old and up can ride it together. It's a good educational lesson in automotive testing, and it's good advertisement for the company that sponsors it, even if the computers do shut it down sometimes. :animwink:

Cheers :wave:

 

[Buzzy989]

Originally posted by TrevEG
A quick question on WoL. I've been hearing rumors floating around that this pavillion was going to be shut down and left vacant (a VERY bad idea imhp). Then I hear something on this post about it going down shortly. Then I buy the new birnbaums (sp?) 2003 guide and under the WoL section it says "may not be open" or something along those lines. Is this going to happen soon? Will it ever open again? Any thoughts?

As far as is publicly known, Wonders of Life will be closing sometime after the opening of Mission:SPACE, with no plans for any replacement in the foreseeable future. Either the pavilion will be used for convention space (a fate similar to the second floor of JII), or it may be razed.

Which brings me to one more curious point. . .WHY is the Disney Company planning on building large attractions, such as the Rainforest Rollercoaster, on new ground, when there is a pavilion with a perfectly viable (and necessary!) theme which could use some sprucing up? Also, the Wonders of Life terrain has already been developed. . .it would better suit EPCOT if it build on this land rather than encroach on The Land's magnificent gardens.

I have visited Wonders of Life fairly recently, and a lot of guest enthusiasm filled the pavilion during my visit. I heard guests rave about Cranium Command after exiting the attraction, and younger audiences love the interactive exhibits (although they don't quite match the wonders of the Image Works, they far outdo the "Playplace" in Mission:SPACE). Although the pavilion is surely in need of some updates (or even a complete overhaul), Wonders of Life has an airy, inspiring aura which should be preserved in the EPCOT experience. The exploration of the self and the senses is one of the most important areas of discovery. . .Life and Health, although it is a challenging area to successfully deal with, should definitely continue to be a focus of EPCOT.

 

[General Grizz]

Originally posted by Buzzy989
WHY is the Disney Company planning on building large attractions, such as the Rainforest Rollercoaster, on new ground, when there is a pavilion with a perfectly viable (and necessary!) theme which could use some sprucing up?

You can say that about all of Future World. Why don't 'they' fix Future World instead of making it Discoveryland? The reason is, they are sick of updating it, and the executives would much rather hide it off where no one can see it. That's right...behind a LOT of trees.

Originally posted by Buzzy989
I have visited Wonders of Life fairly recently, and a lot of guest enthusiasm filled the pavilion during my visit. I heard guests rave about Cranium Command after exiting the attraction, and younger audiences love the interactive exhibits (although they don't quite match the wonders of the Image Works, they far outdo the "Playplace" in Mission:SPACE).

Old Image Works, right? That place was Disneytopia. But yeah, the playplace in Missoin:Space...that's right down the road! And people thought Wonders of Life was a McDonalds... :lol: :brick:

 

[SirNim]

Originally posted by Buzzy989
..The exploration of the self and the senses is one of the most important areas of discovery. . .Life and Health, although it is a challenging area to successfully deal with, should definitely continue to be a focus of EPCOT.

Absolutely. Honestly, if Disney literally abandons WOL, it will show a rude, complete and thorough disregard for the very ideals EPCOT opened with, and the ideals Epcot currently seems to be slowly shedding. NOT that Disney should keep WOL running in the state that it is in now until 2010, without any updates or changes or anything of that sort, but rather progressing and pushing the limits of the topics of Life and Health via the creation of new, imaginative, quality, EPCOT Center-worthy attractions. And if Disney cannot come up with anything that fits that mold, there is a serious lack of imagination, and if Disney cannot come up with the money to finance anything that fits this mold, then there surely is an explanation to be had considering the going ahead with P:G if money is so tight......

 

[Buzzy989]

According to Albert Falls, "It's impossible to pre-judge [Time Racers]. As for Spaceship Earth, other than the long lines generated early in the morning by people hitting the first attraction they see -- attendance is pretty sparse. For being the most dominant structure on the Epcot skyline, I don't see people beelining from World Showcase mid-afternoon to ride it."

Spaceship Earth is the last in a generation of EPCOT attractions. In the intense historical research and development invested in the production period, the artistic majesty and detail of the attraction, and the sheer magic produced by a ride throughout the entire "sphere," the Spaceship Earth attraction is like none other in the park. Spaceship Earth brings audiences into direct contact with historical scenes and experiences, something which the "screen technology" that Time Racers may feature cannot do. In fact, Mission:SPACE, Soarin' Over, Ellen's Energy Adventure, HISTA, Impressions de France, and O Canada! all feature (or will be featuring) different types of screen presentations. . .the Spaceship Earth experience, as a lasting legacy of Walt Disney's showmanship, will forever be unique, and therefore should continue to be a facet of the EPCOT experience.

Also, since Spaceship Earth is the most imposing structure on EPCOT property with a prime location, many guests are inclined to ride it first. . .and these guests, in order to take full advantage of all of the experiences which EPCOT offers (it is certainly impossible to take part in all of them within a single day), usually do not have the luxury of time to visit it again. Spaceship Earth, also, is the last remaining pavilion which looks to the past for inspiration. . .and it is far more visually compelling than a lesson from a history book. The drama of the finale continues to touch me every time, as I'm sure it does most guests of any age.

True, we do not have a clear, assured notion of what Time Racers will be exactly like. But, judging from the current information we have, it will certainly be difficult for any new attraction to fill the shoes of Spaceship Earth and its inventive means of storytelling. Its ending is always subject to change, as it was in 1993-1994, making updates relatively feasible. The model of Time Racers which features an outdoor, roller coaster-type segment would truly mar the majesty and grace of Spaceship Earth. . .but if the new attraction is eventually green-lighted, I can only hope that true PROGRESS will be made and that the experience will be as unique as is predecessor. By no means do I resent any of Albert Falls' comments, but Spaceship Earth is an attraction which has earned not only my greatest admiration, but also my respect.

 

[General Grizz]

Originally posted by SirNim
if Disney cannot come up with the money to finance anything that fits this mold, then there surely is an explanation to be had considering the going ahead with P:G if money is so tight......

WDI has always had ideas. However, based on budget cuts and demands, the executives feel no other choice BUT to shut it down. Chances are, the pavilion will become seasonal, and eventually let go of.

Originally posted by Buzzy989
Spaceship Earth is the last in a generation of EPCOT attractions. In the intense historical research and development invested in the production period, the artistic majesty and detail of the attraction, and the sheer magic produced by a ride throughout the entire "sphere," the Spaceship Earth attraction is like none other in the park. Spaceship Earth brings audiences into direct contact with historical scenes and experiences, something which the "screen technology" that Time Racers may feature cannot do. In fact, Mission:SPACE, Soarin' Over, Ellen's Energy Adventure, HISTA, Impressions de France, and O Canada! all feature (or will be featuring) different types of screen presentations. . .the Spaceship Earth experience, as a lasting legacy of Walt Disney's showmanship, will forever be unique, and therefore should continue to be a facet of the EPCOT experience.

Beautiful.

 

[SirNim]

I didn't write that Grizz! :lol:

However, SE has earned

My respect as well...

I believe I've said this all along, I'm not sure... but.. it's my opinion that Timer Racers can be done right... Done in a way that would continue the use of inventive and compelling story telling. This way, in my opinion, does not have room to spare concerning neither any outdoor use nor the use of any sort of rollre coaster system, at least not a system that has been in operation yet anywhere... SSE is one of a dying breed... One being persued to make way for newer and supposedly better things (of course, we all know that one of these hunted things, none other that the current Imagination! pavilion, was replaced by a mediocre newer being (then replaced again))...
We can only hope that the new generation of Epcot attractions continue and expande and expound upon the graceful, majestic, and worthy work of their ancestors... (I love my metaphors! :lol: )