Prices for the Polynesian DVC Bungalows

[squidward]

This comment shows that you simply hold the wealthy in contempt. Most wealthy people are not Hollywood pop culture wanna be TMZ fodder. Most blend in with the rest of the crowd.

Not sure where you jump to that conclusion from. I hold nobody in contempt. I'm not saying all wealthy people make certain purchases just to show status, but if you're denying that many do, I think you're wrong. I know people who do this very thing. Just wish they'd give me some of their money.

 

[ford91exploder]

When is this class action lawsuit coming? I'll take some free stuff

I seriously doubt Disney would settle anything. They would be setting a really bad precedent that I don't think they would want and encouraging a wave of lawsuits any time someone felt that their MFs were too high or service declined. I'm sure the legal people at Disney are making sure that all of the ducks are in a row and they are covered based on what they are required to do by law. The financial statements for each DVC resort are audited so there is at least some 3rd party over site involved.

The only way Disney could lose a lawsuit like this is if there was a "smoking gun" buried somewhere within the organization proving they were not using the MFs for what they are saying they are using them for. I don't think comparing the MFs to another timeshare and concluding they are too high is going to be enough evidence to win in court. If they did offer anything as a settlement it would likely be an offer to buy the points back from disgruntled owners at some established market price (similar to ROFR) as opposed to returning previous paid fees to owners.

I am NOT an accountant, but I do do a great deal of data analysis and for the past 3 years the numbers are not passing the smell test.

I think the 'smoking gun' exists and it's in the data, Right now DVC housekeeping budget for BLT is on the order of 14 million and considering that figure exceeds comparable properties in the greater orlando area which operate as a hotel and have daily housekeeping service. The comparable timeshare was just one factor.

The cost of that service being charged to members is far higher than it actually costs to deliver I'm sure there is an element of Hollywood accounting here.

The other possibility is DIsney is wildly inefficient at delivering services to timeshare customers.

 

[Hakunamatata]

Rethinking it, I don't think they'll have to market them. As you said, it's basically a way for the super wealthy to show off. They'll spend the money just based on that.

Not sure where you jump to that conclusion from. I hold nobody in contempt. I'm not saying all wealthy people make certain purchases just to show status, but if you're denying that many do, I think you're wrong. I know people who do this very thing. Just wish they'd give me some of their money.

When you state what I have bolded above without qualification, you lump the entire group together. That's where I jumped to the conclusion. Using a word like "some" would show that you don't think the entire group of super wealthy are looking to show off.

 

[note2001]

I am NOT an accountant, but I do do a great deal of data analysis and for the past 3 years the numbers are not passing the smell test.

I think the 'smoking gun' exists and it's in the data, Right now DVC housekeeping budget for BLT is on the order of 14 million and considering that figure exceeds comparable properties in the greater orlando area which operate as a hotel and have daily housekeeping service. The comparable timeshare was just one factor.

The cost of that service being charged to members is far higher than it actually costs to deliver I'm sure there is an element of Hollywood accounting here.

The other possibility is DIsney is wildly inefficient at delivering services to timeshare customers.

There is another possibility: that maintenance really is costing that much at BLT, but every little piece of it is not being detailed out. I'm an AKV owner. Trust me, I'm not happy with the big dues increase for 2015, but then AKV's taxes went up considerably this year, as I'm sure did some other elements such as insurance and animal care. Someone has to feed the zebra, they get grouchy and bite the giraffe if they get too hungry.

BLT has had an unfortunate start in that it was built with a flip-flopped bathroom design in the studios that was finally resolved, and it's possible those costs could now be being passed along. And let's face it, IKEA style furniture is on the disposable side when we're talking the type of abuse it needs to hold up to in a DVC room. I'm sure the taxes have gone up there too. Let's not forget there has been quite a bit of monorail work on that loop over the last year. It all adds up.

The best course of action IMHO, is to go to the meetings, stand up and demand all the numbers. If they're hiding anything (doubtful in my mind) they'll stop any shenanigans they're up to (if any) as soon as they know someone is questioning them.

 

[GoofGoof]

I am NOT an accountant, but I do do a great deal of data analysis and for the past 3 years the numbers are not passing the smell test.

I think the 'smoking gun' exists and it's in the data, Right now DVC housekeeping budget for BLT is on the order of 14 million and considering that figure exceeds comparable properties in the greater orlando area which operate as a hotel and have daily housekeeping service. The comparable timeshare was just one factor.

The cost of that service being charged to members is far higher than it actually costs to deliver I'm sure there is an element of Hollywood accounting here.

The other possibility is DIsney is wildly inefficient at delivering services to timeshare customers.

I'm a BLT owner too. The last 2 years the bulk of the increases came from 2 specific events. For the 2014 dues that was the addition of a dedicated front desk for checkin. IMHO a complete waste of our money. I never had an issue checking in at CR, but the decision was made. That desk needs to be operated going forward so it's a permanent increase. For 2015 it was the taxes. The county came in and reassessed the property. Several resorts were hit besides BLT. I'm not happy about it, but it shouldn't recur every year either. If you remove the tax increase the BLT MFs for 2015 went up less than 3%. It's something that concerns me and I'm sure others, but I don't think it's because of some sort of fraud.

As far as housekeeping goes that budget is not just salaries and cleaning supplies it also includes some smaller items in the unit like towels and small kitchen items. A hotel with daily maid service just has cleaning supplies and salary expense. The rooms don't have kitchens. I'm not sure about your comparison to a timeshare in NYC. I don't know enough about the resort you are referring to.

Disney makes some money from the management fee and from sharing hotel costs with DVC. I just find it hard to believe that the people working for DVC or Disney would risk their jobs and a potential prison sentence to try to shift some funds to TWDC and commit fraud. Even if they wanted to they would still need to deceive an external audit firm or at least have some kind of collusion with them. It's a bit far fetched. I am sure someone will bring up Enron and Arthur Anderson but that's an exception to the rule. Most partners in a public accounting firm are not going to risk their business and their livelihood to help a client commit fraud.

I don't have access to the books of DVC so I don't know anything for sure, but I'll tell you this, if I suspected strongly fraud was occurring first I would sell my points (BLT points are selling for $100+ resale now) and then most likely I would approach someone at DVC directly. If that got me nowhere I would go to the authorities and at least file a complaint.

 

[ParentsOf4]

I'm a BLT owner too. The last 2 years the bulk of the increases came from 2 specific events. For the 2014 dues that was the addition of a dedicated front desk for checkin. IMHO a complete waste of our money. I never had an issue checking in at CR, but the decision was made. That desk needs to be operated going forward so it's a permanent increase. For 2015 it was the taxes. The county came in and reassessed the property. Several resorts were hit besides BLT. I'm not happy about it, but it shouldn't recur every year either. If you remove the tax increase the BLT MFs for 2015 went up less than 3%. It's something that concerns me and I'm sure others, but I don't think it's because of some sort of fraud.

As far as housekeeping goes that budget is not just salaries and cleaning supplies it also includes some smaller items in the unit like towels and small kitchen items. A hotel with daily maid service just has cleaning supplies and salary expense. The rooms don't have kitchens. I'm not sure about your comparison to a timeshare in NYC. I don't know enough about the resort you are referring to.

Disney makes some money from the management fee and from sharing hotel costs with DVC. I just find it hard to believe that the people working for DVC or Disney would risk their jobs and a potential prison sentence to try to shift some funds to TWDC and commit fraud. Even if they wanted to they would still need to deceive an external audit firm or at least have some kind of collusion with them. It's a bit far fetched. I am sure someone will bring up Enron and Arthur Anderson but that's an exception to the rule. Most partners in a public accounting firm are not going to risk their business and their livelihood to help a client commit fraud.

I don't have access to the books of DVC so I don't know anything for sure, but I'll tell you this, if I suspected strongly fraud was occurring first I would sell my points (BLT points are selling for $100+ resale now) and then most likely I would approach someone at DVC directly. If that got me nowhere I would go to the authorities and at least file a complaint.

It's understandable that some are upset that BLT's Maintenance Fees are up a lot over the last 4 years, more than any other DVC resort.

AKV (2007), BLT (2009), and VGC (2009) were all opened while Jim Lewis was president of DVC (2006-2011) and all 3 have seen big increases in the 4 years since Lewis and two others were terminated due to the badly mispriced dues at Aulani.

Makes you wonder what games were being played with DVC Maintenance Fees under Lewis' helm.

 

[flynnibus]

The cost of that service being charged to members is far higher than it actually costs to deliver I'm sure there is an element of Hollywood accounting here.

The other possibility is DIsney is wildly inefficient at delivering services to timeshare customers.

the law is ensuring they aren't skimming stuff for themselves... its much harder to prove they are mis-managing... by you know.. contracting only to their overpriced 'uncle disney world resorts'.

Disney isn't motivated to provide market competitive rates... and DVC isn't motivated to contest Disney's rates.

DVC stays true to the law... Disney does as well.. and the parent company profits.

Anytime the buyer isn't the one actually funding the buying... this kind of stuff is ripe to happen.

 

[note2001]

the law is ensuring they aren't skimming stuff for themselves... its much harder to prove they are mis-managing... by you know.. contracting only to their overpriced 'uncle disney world resorts'.

Disney isn't motivated to provide market competitive rates... and DVC isn't motivated to contest Disney's rates.

DVC stays true to the law... Disney does as well.. and the parent company profits.

Anytime the buyer isn't the one actually funding the buying... this kind of stuff is ripe to happen.

I agree, Disney is a stickler for following the laws. They know what is at stake if they don't, however taxes in particular are a funny creature when we're talking DVC. Some of those increases we're seeing are going right back to Disney via other methods as they control both Lake Buena Vista and Bay Lake.

 

[flynnibus]

I agree, Disney is a stickler for following the laws. They know what is at stake if they don't, however taxes in particular are a funny creature when we're talking DVC. Some of those increases we're seeing are going right back to Disney via other methods as they control both Lake Buena Vista and Bay Lake.

Property tax is a county thing.. not RCID nor municipalities in Florida. RCID of course has its own taxing powers within its definitions... but not property tax. This one seems squarely in the hands of the county wrt to BLT.

 

[ford91exploder]

There is another possibility: that maintenance really is costing that much at BLT, but every little piece of it is not being detailed out. I'm an AKV owner. Trust me, I'm not happy with the big dues increase for 2015, but then AKV's taxes went up considerably this year, as I'm sure did some other elements such as insurance and animal care. Someone has to feed the zebra, they get grouchy and bite the giraffe if they get too hungry.

BLT has had an unfortunate start in that it was built with a flip-flopped bathroom design in the studios that was finally resolved, and it's possible those costs could now be being passed along. And let's face it, IKEA style furniture is on the disposable side when we're talking the type of abuse it needs to hold up to in a DVC room. I'm sure the taxes have gone up there too. Let's not forget there has been quite a bit of monorail work on that loop over the last year. It all adds up.

The best course of action IMHO, is to go to the meetings, stand up and demand all the numbers. If they're hiding anything (doubtful in my mind) they'll stop any shenanigans they're up to (if any) as soon as they know someone is questioning them.

Animal care and refurbishments are the areas I have the least problem with (I also own at AKL as we LOVE animals), It's the housekeeping and 'management' fees I'm having a problem with.

Also agree that Disney is very careful in observing the 'letter' of the law, But ask any lawyer that's only one side of the law. It's very easy to observe the letter of the law while flagrantly violating the spirit of the law (i.e it's legislative intent).

Your point as to go to the meetings I DO go to the meetings. Disney for the past couple of years NO LONGER TAKES QUESTIONS FROM THE FLOOR. Which is another reason I suspect funny business is going on, Since the 90's the DVC annual meeting has ALWAYS taken questions from the floor and if you asked for data you got it and generally in a day or two.

Now that's all changed - no questions and no supporting data for the figures they provide. Something is rotten in Denmark as the old saying goes.

 

[ford91exploder]

It's understandable that some are upset that BLT's Maintenance Fees are up a lot over the last 4 years, more than any other DVC resort.

AKV (2007), BLT (2009), and VGC (2009) were all opened while Jim Lewis was president of DVC (2006-2011) and all 3 have seen big increases in the 4 years since Lewis and two others were terminated due to the badly mispriced dues at Aulani.

Makes you wonder what games were being played with DVC Maintenance Fees at DVC under Lewis' helm.

Or perhaps the fees were 'honest' under Lewis because if you asked for supporting data for the fees DVC would provide backup. Now if you ask for the same information you get the GOLF-FOXTROT-YANKEE response.

 

[ParentsOf4]

Or perhaps the fees were 'honest' under Lewis because if you asked for supporting data for the fees DVC would provide backup.

I understand your frustration at your BLT Maintenance Fee increases but you really should look at this more rationally. Excluding the 3 resorts I mentioned, DVC Maintenance Fees are up an average of 3.2% over the last 3 years. The big increases in recent years are isolated to the resorts opened under Jim Lewis.

The "funny business" with Maintenance Fees occurred at the 4 resorts opened during Jim Lewis' tenure (BLT, AKV, VGC, and Aulani), not at other DVC resorts. Jim Lewis was terminated for badly miscalculating Aulani Maintenance fees.

Purely looking at the numbers, it appears that someone was trying to keep Maintenance Fee increases low while resorts were being actively marketed. For example, AKV fees increased by an amazingly low 2.0% for the 4 years Jim Lewis was there.

I appreciate Disney's ability to control costs but WDW resorts that weren't being marketed increased by 3.2% annually over those same 4 years.

 

[ford91exploder]

I understand your frustration at your BLT Maintenance Fee increases but you really should look at this more rationally. Excluding the 3 resorts I mentioned, DVC Maintenance Fees are up an average of 3.2% over the last 3 years. The big increases in recent years are isolated to the resorts opened under Jim Lewis.

The "funny business" with Maintenance Fees occurred at the 4 resorts opened during Jim Lewis' tenure (BLT, AKV, VGC, and Aulani), not at other DVC resorts.

Purely looking at the numbers, it appears that someone was trying to keep Maintenance Fee increases low while resorts were being actively marketed. For example, AKV fees increased by an amazingly low 2.0% for the 4 years Jim Lewis was there, 5.9% since.

I appreciate Disney's ability to control costs but WDW resorts that weren't being marketed increased by 3.2% annually over those same 4 years.

I'd be less bent about the increases IF DVC was as forthcoming with supporting data as they USED to be and the fact that DVC no longer takes questions at the condo association meeting makes me wonder what's going on. Trust requires a degree of transparency which no longer exists at DVC.

 

[Joe]

I'd be less bent about the increases IF DVC was as forthcoming with supporting data as they USED to be and the fact that DVC no longer takes questions at the condo association meeting makes me wonder what's going on. Trust requires a degree of transparency which no longer exists at DVC.

I was at the last dvc annual meeting last month. They answered many questions from members who came up to the microphone. They listened to everyone. They did not stop anyone from asking questions.

 

[Joe]

I was at the last dvc annual meeting last month. They answered many questions from members who came up to the microphone. They listened to everyone. They did not stop anyone from asking questions.

And after the meeting they had a reception room where everyone went for refreshments and you could go one on one with all the dvc higher ups.

 

[Joe]

And after the meeting they had a reception room where everyone went for refreshments and you could go one on one with all the dvc higher ups.

Had a nice long talk with the manager of Boardwalk Villas. She was so nice, she even gave me her cell phone number to call her if I have any problems.

 

[majortom1981]

Point chart is now out on dvcmember.com and it is indeed 841 points for a bungalow for adventure season (all of sept and 1st 14 days in dec) and goes to to 1439 for premier season.

Studios aren't that bad. 118 for a standard view room for adventure season, and 148 for a studio with lake view for adventure season.

for premier season its 227 for standard and 269 for lake view.

not bad for the studios . The bungalows are insane though.

 

[DVC Mike]

Point charts posted on DVCMember.com this morning appear identical to those leaked last Thursday and posted on MouseOwners and DVCNews.

 

[Incomudro]

I posted some of this in another thread but because people keep arguing it:

All of this "for half the price you could get this and stay in the real bora bora etc. etc..." Is like saying why would you stay in The Venetian or Paris hotels in Vegas when in the REAL Venice and Paris you can stay in an authentic Venetian or Parisian hotel for a cheaper price and have a MUCH better experience!
Well... I'm pretty sure those people in those hotels in Vegas are staying there and paying the prices available to them because... they wanted to go to Vegas. And they simply chose a hotel in Vegas that they liked the look of and they chose to spend their money on.

Just like the people in Disney are choosing to go... to Disney. And to stay in Disney. And are simply choosing a hotel they like the look of theme wise and to their chosen price point.

I can't imagine anyone who has booked to stay at the Poly did so because "Oh hey, why go to Hawaii when for 4 x the price I can stay in a Disney hotel themed to Hawaii!". I'm guessing they were looking to book a holiday... In Disney World. And then chose a hotel they liked the theme of.

Oh and I also have experience with rich people, and guess what, there isn't just one type. I know those who pay for the most expensive things for the sake of it, those who just pay whatever the price happens to be when they happen to go places or buy things, and those who do still look for the value of things and wouldn't dream of spending money like that even though they could afford to. Because... rich people... are people. And people are different and have different values, beliefs and tastes, whatever their income.

^^^^
This.

 

[mikenatcity1]

Point chart is now out on dvcmember.com and it is indeed 841 points for a bungalow for adventure season (all of sept and 1st 14 days in dec) and goes to to 1439 for premier season.

Studios aren't that bad. 118 for a standard view room for adventure season, and 148 for a studio with lake view for adventure season.

for premier season its 227 for standard and 269 for lake view.

not bad for the studios . The bungalows are insane though.

I agree- the bungalows are a little obnoxious (ok...a lot)...but the studios are well priced and a decent size. It seems that the focus was on 20 units rather than the other 300+. I'm a little excited to stay there sometime