TSMM can be a very long wait on the handicapped ramp, the ride already suffers from poor throughput and the number of handicapped cars is very limited.
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Possible Changes coming to the Guest Assistance Cards (GAC)
- Thread starter RSoxNo1
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TSMM can be a very long wait on the handicapped ramp, the ride already suffers from poor throughput and the number of handicapped cars is very limited.
Tom Morrow
Well-Known Member
This has been a known issue for years, with everyone from the bottom up telling the suits at the top that its a problem, but its only now just getting through. Please read the article I quoted a few posts ago.
The complaints about the abuse really have nothing to do with people who even legitimately need accommodation, but rather the fact when given to someone who doesn't actually need it, it absolutely does allow them to ride more than those who don't have a card. As more and more people have the cards, the Fastpass lines get longer, meaning people who actually need accommodation wait longer in the Fastpass line (which completely throws off the point of accommodating people who can't physically be in long lines), everyone with a Fastpass has to wait longer, and in turn everyone in the standby line has to wait significantly longer. The intended 4:1 ratio for Fastpass/Standby doesn't even work at the high demand attractions anymore because of this. That is how this abuse affects everyone's experience.
I wish you and others would stop suggesting that there is no easy answer. There is. The Universal example posted a few pages back - something along those lines - is perfectly fine. It's what basically every other theme park does. Would it be easy to implement? Not at first, maybe due to complaints and updating guests on the new procedure, but if the needs of disabled guests are still being met and they are given the opportunity to experience the same amount as non-disabled guests, there shouldn't be any reason to complain. Sorry to sound harsh, but the people that are going to complain about a change like that are almost certainly either scamming or enjoy the added perks of the GAC.
Instant and unlimited Fastpass line usage is something that should be tightly regulated and given only to the very, very small percentage of guests that actually need it, rather than just handed out to anyone who asks/lies. Or an upcharge perk.
BigThunderMatt
Well-Known Member
Exactly. And to be fair, the GAC in its current form is actually almost positive discrimination as it (often times unintentionally) provides a better experience for the guests who possess it than those who do not. But since no one is having a bad time because of this (other than the guests who don't have it), nobody is going to go clamoring to the ADA to have this little boon taken away. It took a lot of unscrupulous individuals and national media attention for that to happen, and the ADA didn't even have to step in.
BigThunderMatt
Well-Known Member
Read: Every single attraction you listed existed prior to 1990 (and therefore the Americans with Disabilities Act). Soarin' may be new in the sense that it was not in Epcot prior to 1990 but its presence in a building that pre-dates ADA allows it to be grandfathered in and utilizes existing tech (the elevator) to access the attraction's entrance. The standby queue itself is very much wheelchair accessible (and a haven for cutting as well).
American Film Institute is an exhibit that you can view without waiting to see the Backlot Tour. Honey I Shrunk the Kids Playground has no queue and is most definitely wheelchair accessible. The stage shows have viewing for guests with disabilities.
I can guarantee you that every attraction built post-1990 has, in whole or in part, a wheelchair-accessible standby line.
Lord_Vader
Join me, together we can rule the galaxy.
Bingo!
There's obviously some very, very strong opinions on this from current GAC users. The tone with which they've interacted with just me in the last 6 hours shows that pretty clearly, let alone others. I won't pretend to understand their emotions, I'll just smile politely and continue on.
If Disney had a system in place for the last 15 years where people who can't be in crowds or lines for extended periods of time can show a pass and easily skip those lines, then there's the problem. (Let's just forget about dissecting why someone who can't wait in lines or be in large crowds would then willingly vacation at a crowded amusement park.)
It's gotten to the point where too many people have a GAC card and are hopping from ride to ride and zipping in the exit or Fastpass lane at will, and with the ability to ride an attraction over and over as many times as they want. Or they can just go through a park doing only the popular E Tickets for a few hours, and then leave satisfied with their multi-ride park experience (while an able-bodied family that entered the park at the same time is still stuck in their second 90 minute Standby line of the day).
The problem is that Disney created that system and left it wide open for abuse; parents can go in to Guest Relations and say they have an autistic child (and the kid can be anywhere on the autism spectrum, or not be autistic at all and simply be impatient and mildly medicated like their parents) and there's no way for anyone to have to prove anything or show any paperwork, and a smiling hostess in a plaid vest will hand them their Golden Ticket GAC that allows them open and easy access to whatever ride they want.
If you have a GAC, there's no need to plan your day around Fastpass times, no need to wait in 2 hour Standby lines when the Fastpasses run out or are blocked from your use because you already have a Fastpass elsewhere, and no need to prioritize your park experiences and skip things because the park closes at 10PM and you're running out of time. Just show your GAC and go!
There's gotta be a better way, and I think Disney is on the verge of coming up with that. This should be interesting to watch unfold.
I believe part of their message is that every experience is different from attraction to attraction, day to day, guest by guest. We have waited double the posted wait times often during our visits but that is the ONLY way my wife can ride many attractions and sometimes we do wait less but I can honestly say I have seen very little abuse at WDW like what what shown in the recent news at DL.
It simply blows my mind that so many people sit around and complain about someone getting a perceived advantage while not stopping to take a look at ALL the disadvantages like rarely being able to watch a show or live play from a decent view or without someone blocking most of the screen, climb the SFTH, enjoy TSI, actually get off a bus in a reasonable time.
This year we have resorted to staying in Deluxe resorts either in the Epcot area to avoid using Disney buses as much as possible because the process takes SO LONG and the constant SNEERS/COMMENTS from other guests gets very tiresome over time, not to mention the times we have issues with drivers not wanting to load a wheelchair. We do not parkhop anymore, we pretty much gave up seeing parades as the wheelchair areas limit most parties to one extra guest (this is supposed to be a family vacation right?) and usually ended having to park by 1:15 to get a decent spot to ensure my wife can see, fireworks are a lost cause especially when guests start putting their children on their shoulders in front of you.
Funny thing is, the few guests we have seen actually abusing the GAC are also the loudest people complaining in the alternate lines that are hidden from most guests becuase they truely believed they had something special and did not realize the atttractions limited the number of people requiring assistance to a small number of simultaneous riders.
NOW, if the FP+ works, or chages are made to GAC I sincerely hope that the FP return times are spread out accordingly to only have a few GAC at at time as well, because I would be VERY angry if we were limited to three attractions (FP+) and still have to wait 60 minutes in the secondary queues as I expct would happen, this would result in my family NEVER returning.
And about planning your day, you are absolutely WAY OFF BASE, you cannot do anything without planning in advance and ALWAYS have to wait a half hour or so because some inconsiderate/arrogant guest has decided to use the ONLY wheelchair accessible restroom in the vicinity. You always have to plan on walking MUCH slower than you normally would because you don't want to run over the family that cuts in front of you HOLDING HANDS, or STOPS suddenly on a downhill walkway a foot in front of you.
Your system wouldn't stop abuse either, while it would slow down the immediate access to a ride, a smart unscrupulous person would use it to get what would amount to a free fast pass for a later return on as many rides as they could, especially with the new fastpass+ system limiting people to 3 fastpasses a day.
Also that system does not work very well for everyone, some people with disabilities will be adversely affected by having a return policy. Not every disability is the same and some can spend the time waiting others have issues which limit their time in the parks to a few hours. today's GAC helps those people out tremendously, making Disney more attractive to someone who might otherwise stay home. But the downside is that its flexibility and benefits also make it extremely attractive to those who would abuse it,and the ease of access to the information on how to abuse has become easy to get thanks to the wonders of the interwebs.
But back to my original question if the GAC had no chance of abuse would it still bother you that someone with one could ride a ride twice while you could only ride it once in the same time frame, and would you consider that a fair accommodation to those with a disability.
Or put in other words do you think Disney is doing a disservice to all its regular customers by giving those with disabilities an accommodation that amounts to an advantage when touring the parks, Again put aside the abuse issues, and look at it from that perspective alone.
Lord_Vader
Join me, together we can rule the galaxy.
No, going to WDW is not a right, it is a privilege that we ALL pay for. As we ALL pay for the privilege guests with disabilities should be afforded the same access, and responsibilities as ALL GUESTS. If Disney was discounting entry tickets for wheelchair bound guests due to attractions being inaccessible then it would be different.
Rights and privileges are very different, don't confuse the two. We all pay to enter the park, why should guests with disabilities not expect to get the same experience, as much as possible and standard guests?
Lets face it WDW is not a city/state/national park, it is a private entity owned by a huge corporation and charges a good deal of money to visit therefore a privilege to visit. I fully expect when I pay for the privilege to go to WDW I get what I paid for.
Lord_Vader
Join me, together we can rule the galaxy.
I agree completely, we have sat in the line many times over the years, quite a few times before you even get to the ramp before you make the right turn. (Our longest wait was just over 110 minutes just after Christmas this last winter.)
Lord_Vader
Join me, together we can rule the galaxy.
I have written TDO many times over the years suggesting a pass/return time system just like that to both eliminate what abuse there is and to distribute the number of GAC riders throughout the day to avoid the very long waits that can and do happen regularly when we visit.
Monty
Brilliant...and Canadian
- In the Parks
- No
Again, you're suggesting that one solution solves everything. The "Universal example" only solves the problems of people who can't wait in long lines but otherwise are fine spending their full day in the park. People who may need to take multiple breaks from the parks or may not be able to stay for a full day for whatever reason are ignored.
There is a solution that could come with the advent of NextGen technologies... If instead of getting a card, the GAC were tied to the disabled individual's RFID tag, whether wristband or ticket, then s/he could be limited in the total number of rides normally experienced by an average guest during the course of a full day in the park during the season in question. The "party" allowed to accompany them could be identified in advance [with the ability to add someone legitimate in the case of a disabled AP holder] and only have access to the rides if the disabled person goes through first. This would immediately control the "renting" of GAC access to families with a paid GAC holder escort, keep the disabled from getting an unfair benefit, while they can use their access as quickly or slowly as they choose, they are limited to whatever could reasonably be accessed at that time of year by an able-bodied guest. In slow season, that might be harder to determine, I remember [without GAC] riding Expedition Everest 27 times in a single day. A separate advantage to this would be the removal of any stigma or complaints about disabled using the GAC, to any outside observer all they would see is a group accessing a ride through the FP queue. For rides that have alternate access not using the FP queue, the RFID would still be used to confirm the ride limit was not being exceeded. Whether the ride limit is used on one or multiple rides would be up to the individual, just as it is for able-bodied guests [see my EE example].
This idea would give various different types of disabilities a reasonable accommodation while reducing, if not eliminating, much of the real or perceived abuse. If it doesn't "guarantee" instant access to more rides, very few people would be wiling to pay a disabled GAC holder for the privilege, it would be harder to include a random family as part of your "group" anyway. The abusers who use it to get access to significantly more rides would be foiled. It probably still wouldn't stop all abuse, I imagine nothing could.
Lord_Vader
Join me, together we can rule the galaxy.
Your statement was that only MK was affected by alternate entrances, I listed a few of the attractions that are in the other parks that are limited. The elevator in The Land pavilion is an attraction wait on its own most of the time, at times upwards of 15-20 min as it only holds one or two wheelchairs/ECVs and there are A LOT of ECVs being used lately.
The stage show viewing is limited to poor at best at most of the shows because the areas are in the absolute back of the theaters and almost always at the same level with the back row of chairs resulting in a seriously blocked view for my wife, we have given up watching most of them as a result especially one of our favorites Fantasmic which is so far away you can hardly see the characters from the wheelchair areas.
My real point... all things being equal it is give and take, at times we do save a few minutes on a ride but we almost always pay for it somewhere else.
misterID
Well-Known Member
This is so trivial. It really gets me that people REALLY think the disabled are getting such a better experience than they are. But I love how a lot of the spite is wrapped up in "stopping the abuse" when the argument generally comes down to the fact that healthy guests believe they're getting jipped and the handicapped are getting a better vacation when they've spent the same amount of money.
It's obvious these people haven't been to the park with a disabled family member whose disability severly impacts their own vacation. I have to push a wheelchair for my father all over the parks and sit with him so other family members can ride the rides he can't, and someone else has to be with him for me to ride the rides. We have to make sure he can get to the proper transportation in time (let's hear all the whining about the handicap skipping in line for a bus in front of everyone now!) to get back to his room in time (before 7 PM) so he can get to his nightly medical treatment. Not even counting he can't be out in the sun because of his medication for long periods, and can't stand in line becuase of another medical condition. He basically rides HM, IASW, People Mover, COP, CBJ, POTC and that's about it. If you're going to begrudge someone because of that, that's your problem. I'm spending the same money you are (probably even more!) for less of the experience that you're getting. There are so many other things to be angry about. THIS is petty. If you want a doctors note, prescriptions, a 'reasonable" criteria to get the card, let's discuss. If you're going to whine and cry that the handicap get a better vacation than you do, take it to a therapist.
It's obvious these people haven't been to the park with a disabled family member whose disability severly impacts their own vacation. I have to push a wheelchair for my father all over the parks and sit with him so other family members can ride the rides he can't, and someone else has to be with him for me to ride the rides. We have to make sure he can get to the proper transportation in time (let's hear all the whining about the handicap skipping in line for a bus in front of everyone now!) to get back to his room in time (before 7 PM) so he can get to his nightly medical treatment. Not even counting he can't be out in the sun because of his medication for long periods, and can't stand in line becuase of another medical condition. He basically rides HM, IASW, People Mover, COP, CBJ, POTC and that's about it. If you're going to begrudge someone because of that, that's your problem. I'm spending the same money you are (probably even more!) for less of the experience that you're getting. There are so many other things to be angry about. THIS is petty. If you want a doctors note, prescriptions, a 'reasonable" criteria to get the card, let's discuss. If you're going to whine and cry that the handicap get a better vacation than you do, take it to a therapist.
Tom Morrow
Well-Known Member
True, but I would bet that the added hassle would be enough to drastically cut down on the number of people that bother.
They could develop a more specific procedure for guests who need these additional accommodations. The problem is that now they are handing an unlimited, no-strings-attached Fastpass line pass as the answer to everything.
I'm not entirely sure that I understand the question, but I think that everyone should have the same opportunity to ride everything, with rare exceptions like Make a Wish children. Perhaps with the more specific procedures they could develop, certain guests with very specific needs could ride an additional time, but not unlimited like what is currently allowed.
Yes, because, as it stands, it is causing everyone else to be able to do less than they could without the cards, because card holders can do more.
Tom Morrow
Well-Known Member
That is true, if a "return policy" doesn't work for someone, then there could be a higher tier form of accommodation that is more closely regulated in some way that allows for instant, but not unlimited access.
Again it isn't really about disabled people getting a better experience, its the fact that now a huge chunk of the park visitors are lying and scamming to get a card, and by doing so they are absolutely getting a better experience while having paid the same and negatively impacting everyone else's experience - INCLUDING those who actually need assistance. This isn't trivial. I wonder how many times this will need to be repeated in this thread??
If you see this thread as people attacking folks with actual disabilities, then are you just playing the victim.
misterID
Well-Known Member
@Tom Morrow No they can't do more, that's what's being overlooked here.
JLipnick
Well-Known Member
Let me ask you a question about having a disability. Should my 5 year old son who is 100% mentally and emotionally on or above his age level but who can't walk independently without a walker be told he can't go to WDW because he is different? While I know it gets abused, without the GAC, my son would not be able to experience what other 5 year old boys would be able to experience at Disney which is why we go a few times a year and why we joined DVC. In my opinion, that in itself is enough to warrant you or others having to wait another 5 minutes in a line.
Just because someone can do more does not necessarily mean they are able to. If you took 2 people without disabilities and gave a GAC to one, your argument would be right 100% of the time, because all things being equal the person with the GAC will have more time to ride more rides.
But many people with disabilities are not starting on an equal footing and therefore a GAC is not giving them an overall advantage, just an advantage on the things they do.
misterID
Well-Known Member
This post, this right here, this is what I'm talking about. Its intentionally misleading about what the problem is we're discussing, not the abuse. I don't have a problem with stopping the abuse, like anyone else here. It's a problem. That's not the point we're talking about.
This was your response, your words, to the question if you thought legit disabled people are getting a better experience because of the card than healthy people:
Tom Morrow said:
That's what I'm talking about, that's the discussion (you should have quoted and paid attention to the rest of my post that you deleted in that quote) which is NOT TRUE. Try reading the experinces instead of skipping them and accusing people of playing the victim. I'm paying a huge amount of money for less of the experince the average guest with my package would be getting. PERIOD. The card is not an advantage for me but some added convenience. If that's too much to deal with, tough.
Tom Morrow
Well-Known Member
Please explain to us how he wouldn't be able to visit WDW without a card that entitles you to unlimited Fastpass line usage? Because WDW already fully accommodates those who can't walk WITHOUT the GACs.
When I say "they", I mean any party with a card that doesn't actually need the assistance. You are choosing it to see it as me getting mad that parents with a severely mentally challenged child are having a better time than I am and I am absolutely NOT saying that. I'm saying that the thousands of parties who obtain the cards daily, in each park, who are perfectly capable, are taking advantage and ARE doing more.
JLipnick
Well-Known Member
I couldn't agree more. Do people actually think that a parent with a disabled child would prefer to get the GAC and not have to wait in lines RATHER than not having a child with a disability? We went into the line for Dumbo prior to it moving to new fantasyland and we carried my son (3 at the time) up the exit ramp (Handicap entrance). A woman who was close to getting on the ride asked why we were there. We told her our son was 3 and couldn't walk. She said we were lucky to not have to wait in line. Lucky? We told her we would MUCH rather wait in line with everyone else if that would mean Matthew could walk. She had no idea how much it costs to have a child with a physical disability and how he can't do things other kids his age can do. That is why we go to WDW as often as we do (and we live 1000 miles away). They make him feel like every other kid and that is priceless.
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