Pirates Queue Modifications

[Tim Lohr]

You're reasoning still makes no sense.

If you have a FP for BTMRR at 1pm, and then go stand in line for HM for 90 minutes (which wouldn't happen), you would be done roughly at 2:45. So you would still have 15 minutes to get over to Space. You better hurry though because that 3pm parade is about to start!

For you to think that a new FP+ System won't have a significant effect on wait times is just ridiculous. Quite a few of us have told you why...but just go on believing what you want and don't listen to reason.

uhh? what you just said makes no sense, "haunted mansion will never have 90 min wait, but it's ridiculous to think it won't increase the stand by line?" which argument are trying for?... also you're not taking into account the amount of time it takes to ride the rides... but anyway

I'm not listening because you're talking about the current Fast Pass system and all it's drawbacks, you're talking about the new system they are proposing, basically you're only adding, but you're not subtracting. Everyone seems to think that by adding Fast Pass lines you'll increase all the Stand By lines, but where exactly are all these extra people coming from?

The current FP opens with the park, and as the day goes on the FP return times increase which inturn causes the Stand By line to increase. Right now "Space Mountain" and "Buzz Lightyear" both have pretty long Stand By lines, the reason is because they also have Fast Pass lines. There also aren't that many options for Fast Pass, so the rides that have FP slow down the Stand By lines

Adding more FP options, and limiting the number of FP per guest, spreading it out over moring, noon and night, will thin out the number of people in each Fast Line, which will also bring down the wait time of the current Stand By lines... ahh see that? addition AND subtraction

 

[devoy1701]

uhh? what you just said makes no sense, "haunted mansion will never have 90 min wait, but it's ridiculous to think it won't increase the stand by line?" which argument are trying for?... also you're not taking into account the amount of time it takes to ride the rides... but anyway

I'm not listening because you're talking about the current Fast Pass system and all it's drawbacks, you're talking about the new system they are proposing, basically you're only adding, but you're not subtracting. Everyone seems to think that by adding Fast Pass lines you'll increase all the Stand By lines, but where exactly are all these extra people coming from?

The current FP opens with the park, and as the day goes on the FP return times increase which inturn causes the Stand By line to increase. Right now "Space Mountain" and "Buzz Lightyear" both have pretty long Stand By lines, the reason is because they also have Fast Pass lines. There also aren't that many options for Fast Pass, so the rides that have FP slow down the Stand By lines

Adding more FP options, and limiting the number of FP per guest, spreading it out over moring, noon and night, will thin out the number of people in each Fast Line, which will also bring down the wait time of the current Stand By lines... ahh see that? addition AND subtraction

Yup. Wrong. Still. Sorry.

 

[doctornick]

For you to think that a new FP+ System won't have a significant effect on wait times is just ridiculous. Quite a few of us have told you why...but just go on believing what you want and don't listen to reason.

Of course it will have an effect on wait times... some people will wait longer, some people will wait less. Often it will be the same person being affected positively and negatively on different rides.

Either way, unless Fasspass+ changes people's touring habits dramatically, you are still talking about the same number of people, same number of rides, same capacity. All Fastpass+ would be doing is shifting wait times between parties. If only certain people are able to get Fastpass+ (e.g. people who buy it, resort guests, annual passholders, etc.) then it will almost certainly decrease overall wait times for people with Fastpass+ and onto people without it. We can debate whether that's a good thing or bad thing, but I don't see how it could make standby times increase without some people getting benefits of decreased wait times.

I don't get the notion that these people using Fastpass+ are appearing in the line from out of no where. In virtually all cases, they'd have been in the standby line instead (at least at some point during that day) so you're mostly shifting people from standby lines to fastpass lines while the rides will service the same number of people in a day.

 

[lazyboy97o]

I don't get the notion that these people using Fastpass+ are appearing in the line from out of no where. In virtually all cases, they'd have been in the standby line instead (at least at some point during that day) so you're mostly shifting people from standby lines to fastpass lines while the rides will service the same number of people in a day.

Then why the need to entertain people at fixed points in a line that typically moves rather well?

 

[doctornick]

Then why the need to entertain people at fixed points in a line that typically moves rather well?

Because standby will be longer... for some people. And for others, getting onto PoC will be quicker. It's a zero sum game because the capacity of the ride will be the same as it is now. Unless you think that Fastpass+ will suddenly be causing more people to be riding PoC that wouldn't have before (I doubt it since I think it will merely take people who would otherwise be in the Standby line and put them into this new Fastpass line). And even in that unlikely case, that means that such people who are now riding PoC that would not have ridden it are not doing some other attraction, thus reducing the line/wait time there.

Zero sum game. I've yet to see someone make a compelling argument that Fastpass+ is going to cause more people to go to the park and ride more attractions than before. Because that is how overall collective wait times are going to get worse. Again, I'm not saying that Standby wait times won't be worse; they will be longer. But in exchange for longer standby wait times, more people are going to have Fastpasses for more rides and be able to get on to rides quicker than they otherwise would have.

 

[lazyboy97o]

It is not zero sum because one can hold a FastPass for an attraction while also being in line for an attraction. That increases the numbers because people are effectively in two places at once. Disney is trying to correct some of this, but it remains a possibility. FastPass has been tried on attractions such as Pirates of the Caribbean and The Haunted Mansion and it was such a failure it was abandoned because the benefits did not actually exist. Something has to happen to make that benefit now exist.

 

[doctornick]

It is not zero sum because one can hold a FastPass for an attraction while also being in line for an attraction. That increases the numbers because people are effectively in two places at once. Disney is trying to correct some of this, but it remains a possibility.

Of course it does. And that will make the wait longer for some people when that person uses the fastpass... and make the wait for that other attraction much shorter for that person using the fastpass. That's why it's zero sum. It's causing the the wait time for some people to be longer (the person in the standby line) and making the wait time for other people to be shorter (the person in the fastpass line). You are making it sound like only people are being hurt (longer standby lines) without the benefit to others, but that's not how fastpass works.

What I mean by zero sum is "some people wait longer, other people wait less". Since the capacity of PoC isn't changing, the same number of people per hour will enjoy the ride. If someone ends up waiting longer for the ride, it would be because someone else is getting on quicker (i.e. using fastpass to "jump in front").

 

[lazyboy97o]

Of course it does. And that will make the wait longer for some people when that person uses the fastpass... and make the wait for that other attraction much shorter for that person using the fastpass. That's why it's zero sum. It's causing the the wait time for some people to be longer (the person in the standby line) and making the wait time for other people to be shorter (the person in the fastpass line). You are making it sound like only people are being hurt (longer standby lines) without the benefit to others, but that's not how fastpass works.

What I mean by zero sum is "some people wait longer, other people wait less". Since the capacity of PoC isn't changing, the same number of people per hour will enjoy the ride. If someone ends up waiting longer for the ride, it would be because someone else is getting on quicker (i.e. using fastpass to "jump in front").

The problem you are ignoring is that this situation will spread throughout the park. Those not paying for FastPass Plus are expected to experience less attractions per day. Disney's hope is that instead of complaining, most people will not recognize how much [extra] time was spent waiting around (because they were distracted by the interactive queue) and will not be too upset, but maybe upset enough to seriously consider buying FastPass Plus.

 

[doctornick]

The problem you are ignoring is that this situation will spread throughout the park. Those not paying for FastPass Plus are expected to experience less attractions per day. Disney's hope is that instead of complaining, most people will not recognize how much [extra] time was spent waiting around (because they were distracted by the interactive queue) and will not be too upset, but maybe upset enough to seriously consider buying FastPass Plus.

And those people getting Fastpass+ will be experiencing more attractions per day. Again, zero sum. Some people benefit, other people are hurt. We don't know who will be in what category yet because we don't know how the system will be implemented.

And I would think Disney is hoping to recoup their investment in Fastpass+ by encouraging people to pay for it. That might be a direct thing (you pay to use Fastpass+) or indirect (Resort guests get Fastpass+ automatically and encourages people to book on property).

I'm not arguing for or against Fastpass+. I just think people are being dishonest in their arguments about the system by ignoring the situations where it benefits guests. You can't have people with longer standby times unless someone else is getting on quicker than they otherwise would have.

 

[lazyboy97o]

And those people getting Fastpass+ will be experiencing more attractions per day. Again, zero sum. Some people benefit, other people are hurt. We don't know who will be in what category yet because we don't know how the system will be implemented.

The whole point of prescheduling is to exercise control over the number of FastPasses being utilized. Enforcement of the return times is to discourage FastPass holders from experiencing too many other attractions. The whole point of FastPass in the first place was not to make people feel good about not waiting in lines, the hope was that people would eat and shop while not in line. FastPass Plus is very much about fixing the "wrong" behavior of getting into another line while holding a FastPass.

 

[devoy1701]

And those people getting Fastpass+ will be experiencing more attractions per day. Again, zero sum. Some people benefit, other people are hurt. We don't know who will be in what category yet because we don't know how the system will be implemented.

And I would think Disney is hoping to recoup their investment in Fastpass+ by encouraging people to pay for it. That might be a direct thing (you pay to use Fastpass+) or indirect (Resort guests get Fastpass+ automatically and encourages people to book on property).

I'm not arguing for or against Fastpass+. I just think people are being dishonest in their arguments about the system by ignoring the situations where it benefits guests. You can't have people with longer standby times unless someone else is getting on quicker than they otherwise would have.

This will be the first time a system is being implemented that has a negative impact on specific segments of guests (Non-WDW Resort Guests, Single Day Guests, and possibly AP Holders) during regularly scheduled operating hours. For those segments who quite possibly will not have access to FP+, mostly all of their wait times will be longer, not just for some attractions.

In addition, I think that this system will have more people in lines at any given time because you're taking the random park touring and leisure out of the equation by having people book well in advance when their supposed to be in line for something. More people are going to be following a "strict" schedule with FP+, which is going to limit the amount of people just kind of "hanging out" in the parks. They're trying to make it so that people only have time in the day to eat, shop, and go on some attractions, no more lingering...you don't have time for it because if you try you're going to miss your next FP window. Not to mention that with more people using FP+ than the current FP system, even with the additional attraction line up, it doesn't mean that Splash and Space are suddenly going to be less popular choices for FP. I think it's going to fail at ultimately trying to redistribute people.

 

[Tip Top Club]

This will be the first time a system is being implemented that has a negative impact on specific segments of guests (Non-WDW Resort Guests, Single Day Guests, and possibly AP Holders) during regularly scheduled operating hours. For those segments who quite possibly will not have access to FP+, mostly all of their wait times will be longer, not just for some attractions.

The trouble here is that We still don't know what access those people will have to FP+. Hopefully more light may be shined on that once the September tests happen (That's my feeling anyway). So until we know for sure what impact it will have on those people, we can't single them out.

Anyway, in reference to the current debate about Stand-by times. They will actively be getting longer. Over the past several months more Fastpasses have been added to a lot of high profile attractions (That is, more distribute within an hour period), and because of this Fastpass Merge intervals have also been fine-tuned. So the fact that Stand-by is getting longer is actually kind of preemptive strike on making sure that FP+ and Fastpass Holders both get on the attraction as fast as possible.

So it's not because of the existence of Fastpass+ just because they know that Fastpass usage is about to go up so they want to make sure those lines never get backed up.

The problem is that the example of pirates is being used and that's a bad example. Fastpass+ probably won't increase the wait time here much because it's so crazy high capacity. It might make it a bit longer in the middle of a peak day but that's about it. Where it's really going to make things longer is for example Soarin', Toy Story, and other rides who's fastpasses tend to run out early in the day and people just give up on them. Those will be the highest impact. That's just one persons's observations though.

 

[Buried20KLeague]

Of course it will have an effect on wait times... some people will wait longer, some people will wait less. Often it will be the same person being affected positively and negatively on different rides.

...you're mostly shifting people from standby lines to fastpass lines while the rides will service the same number of people in a day.

Then what's the point??

I've said this all along... What this WILL DO is create a larger chasm between the "haves" and the "have nots". It's going to create an even larger class system than currently exists with FP. How large that chasm becomes will be determined by who is allowed to take advantage of the FP+ system, and when.

Worst case scenario, it's not even possible for some of us to use the system, thereby shutting us out. That would blow your theory of "the same person being affected positively and negatively"... It would only be completely negatively.

The moderately bad possibility would be FP+ being included when people stay onsite, with the availability to purchase FP+ for AP's and off site people for the day. In this case, it would be possible for everyone to be on a level playing field, but those that choose not to purchase (or CAN'T, for whatever reason) will be at a huge disadvantage.

The least bothersome option will be if everyone can use FP+. But even in this case, the chasm will STILL become larger, because it's going to be more complex to understand and use than the current FP system (and exploit the weaknesses of). Right now, those than know how to exploit the system the best spend the least amount of time in lines. Now magnify it by adding a bunch of rides, some that shouldn't have FP (which is not debateable, because Disney has already tried it and determined it to be a poor decision and removed it). In this case, I'll certainly be one of the "haves" that's working the system to my benefit... But that doesn't make it right. You're still going to have a ton of PO'd people tired of stand by lines... It just won't be me in this case.

The other thing this system WILL do is change how people tour the parks. As an example... Let's say we love to ride Pirates. Let's say that currently in a full day at the MK, we like to ride it 5 or 6 times (this would be true at DL, but not at WDW with its mess of an attraction). Currently, that's easily doable. With a line that constantly moves and a people-eating attraction, we can get multiple rides in. With FP+ added, though, we would have to spend much more time standing in line to ride it that often. Because of that, we're going to avoid riding the rides that we otherwise would like to return to over and over. Again, this isn't debateable. To ride PoTC multiple times in a day, I'll have to stand in line far longer than I do currently. This is the same situation that currently exists with popular FP rides now like Splash or Space... They've already effected how many times my family rides those in a trip. My issue is now they're going to expand that to many more attractions to create false value for the system.

 

[Buried20KLeague]

And those people getting Fastpass+ will be experiencing more attractions per day. Again, zero sum. Some people benefit, other people are hurt. We don't know who will be in what category yet because we don't know how the system will be implemented.

I completely don't understand your "zero sum" arguement.

You're arguing that it's zero sum with THE MASS OF PEOPLE INSIDE THE MK as a whole. That within that mass, some will win and some will lose, and because of that, it's all going to be a wash. Not one single person in that mass is going to be thinking about how FP+ is effecting THE MASS. They're going to be thinking about how it's effecting THEIR FAMILY only. They're not going to say "hey, I'm okay with standing in a 40 minute line at PoTC because earlier today I got to use a FP+ at Haunted Mansion".

 

[Buried20KLeague]

The problem is that the example of pirates is being used and that's a bad example. Fastpass+ probably won't increase the wait time here much because it's so crazy high capacity. It might make it a bit longer in the middle of a peak day but that's about it. Where it's really going to make things longer is for example Soarin', Toy Story, and other rides who's fastpasses tend to run out early in the day and people just give up on them. Those will be the highest impact. That's just one persons's observations though.

I disagree... I think when you funnel what was a two-sided que full of stand by people down to one line and one dock, it will make the line (roughly) twice as long as it was before FP+. That's not a big deal when the wait changes from 5 minutes to 10, but when it changes it from 10 to 20, it gets harder to handle quick. And how often does pirates currently have a 10 minute standby? VERY often.

And I'll agree that it might not be quite twice as long, because some of those people might move from standby to FP... But I'll wager a dole whip that it's not going to be an amount large enough to greatly effect that standby line time much. Maybe 10%.

 

[devoy1701]

I completely don't understand your "zero sum" arguement.

You're arguing that it's zero sum with THE MASS OF PEOPLE INSIDE THE MK as a whole. That within that mass, some will win and some will lose, and because of that, it's all going to be a wash. Not one single person in that mass is going to be thinking about how FP+ is effecting THE MASS. They're going to be thinking about how it's effecting THEIR FAMILY only. They're not going to say "hey, I'm okay with standing in a 40 minute line at PoTC because earlier today I got to use a FP+ at Haunted Mansion".

I don't get it either. They're not only looking at all of the people within MK (or any of the parks) as a whole, but also as all of the attractions as a whole. It's ok that you have to wait in line at PotC for 40 minutes (which used to only take 20 minutes) because you got to use FP+ at HM (which didn't used to need a FP before anyway). And some of the people will be able to use FP+ so it's ok that there are some who won't that now have to wait longer for everything.

@Tip Top Club already explained that Standby Times have gotten longer simply by adding more FPs into the hourly window and this is before FP+ has even gone live. And the FP wait isn't getting shorter...you still have to come back 1-2 or 3 hours later to enjoy your attraction...so the waits are actually getting longer for everyone.

 

[Buried20KLeague]

I don't get it either. They're not only looking at all of the people within MK (or any of the parks) as a whole, but also as all of the attractions as a whole. It's ok that you have to wait in line at PotC for 40 minutes (which used to only take 20 minutes) because you got to use FP+ at HM (which didn't used to need a FP before anyway). And some of the people will be able to use FP+ so it's ok that there are some who won't that now have to wait longer for everything.

@Tip Top Club already explained that Standby Times have gotten longer simply by adding more FPs into the hourly window and this is before FP+ has even gone live. And the FP wait isn't getting shorter...you still have to come back 1-2 or 3 hours later to enjoy your attraction...so the waits are actually getting longer for everyone.

It sounds like he's making the exact points the bean counters would be making in the executive meetings about Nextgen. It just completely sounds like how TDO would sell this idea.

And I think that's horribly misguided.

 

[Tip Top Club]

I disagree... I think when you funnel what was a two-sided que full of stand by people down to one line and one dock, it will make the line (roughly) twice as long as it was before FP+. That's not a big deal when the wait changes from 5 minutes to 10, but when it changes it from 10 to 20, it gets harder to handle quick. And how often does pirates currently have a 10 minute standby? VERY often.

And I'll agree that it might not be quite twice as long, because some of those people might move from standby to FP... But I'll wager a dole whip that it's not going to be an amount large enough to greatly effect that standby line time much. Maybe 10%.

The Argument that I was trying to make is that Pirates Fastpass+ Usage probably won't be nearly as high as other high profile attractions, such as Space and Splash that already offer fastpass. So on off-peak times when Pirates wait isn't long, and there is essentially no fastpass usage they can still send Stand-by down the other side. They'll fill the boats, obvious fastpass first, but when there is no fastpass usage in the morning and evening they can fill them with stand-by.

That was what I meant anyway.

To clarify the other point, I for Fastpass wait, I was referring to the time it takes from when you enter the queue, those are the waits that are getting shorter. Not the time between the reservation and the return. Those are two independent points.

 

[ChrisM]

The moderately bad possibility would be FP+ being included when people stay onsite, with the availability to purchase FP+ for AP's and off site people for the day. In this case, it would be possible for everyone to be on a level playing field, but those that choose not to purchase (or CAN'T, for whatever reason) will be at a huge disadvantage.

I can't conceive of an implementation in which this isn't the effective standard.

Day guests will still be allowed something akin to the current FP implementation. Resort guests will receive the FP+ benefit (while also still possibly being able to utilize the current FP implementation).

Anecodotal evidence points to Disney having a hell of a time with their resort capacity and need to fill rooms badly. This sort of "on site perk" is easily marketable.

 

[Tim Lohr]

Yup. Wrong. Still. Sorry.

Wow, you keep doing and excellent job of completely misunderstanding the relevant information, I really don't think it's worth my time to try and explain this to you again -good bye