Pirates Queue Modifications

[rct247]

Maybe I should've phrased this differently... why do think adding fast pass will make the ride more popular? Stich's Escape has fast pass kiosks out front, but they rarely ever use them. I think this is what they're doing at Pirates, simply having the system in place for the occasions that they need it

I find it very interesting that some attractions that have never had Fastpass are now getting it. Then there are attractions like Haunted Mansion that had it but realized it didn't work so they got rid of it. What is even more amazing is that Stitch's Great Escape hasn't used Fastpass since before 2011 and just this past Spring of 2012 the Fastpass machines outside of Stitch's Great Escape were completely removed along with all signage for that attraction. Stitch's Great Escape for one didn't need Fastpass, but it also didn't work very well as guests still ended up waiting in line for the next show. They still used the Fastpass machines to connect to remote turnstiles for Mickey's Not-So-Scary Halloween Party & Mickey's Very Merry Christmas Party. Even then, they removed the machine completely.

So one thing is certain, Stitch will not be part of Fastpass+ and that those Fastpass machines are being repurposed for another attraction on property.

As for the whole Space Mountain / Pirates merge debate. Space doesn't always send Fastpass to Omega and doesn't always send stand-by to Alpha, but that is typically how the line flows. They send Fastpass to which ever side isn't full or has the shorter line because they have to keep the promise of a minimal wait. Stand-by therefore goes to whatever is also available which may just be sending a few groups to Alpha in between all of the Fastpasses. I'm sure Pirates would work the same way. One line would entrance would be Stand-by and the other would be Fastpass, but once it reaches that new merge point, the separate lins will be used for both lines based on the which side needs has the available space and which group (standby or Fastpass) needs to be sent.

 

[devoy1701]

Okay, but... wouldn't most/all of the people who are using Fastpasses formerly have been in the Standby line? Using your example, let's say there are 100 Fastpasses available for that hour. I would think that the people who would get/have those Fastpasses would otherwise be among the 1000 people in the Standby line. So, the situation will be that 100 guests will get on much quicker (say in 10 minutes), the other 900 guests that hour would have a marginally longer wait (probably not more than 5-10 minutes extra). But the ride still accommodates 1000 people that hour. So, you end up with some guests having a far better wait time and a number of guests with a slightly worse wait time.

Your scenario seems to suggest that the new Fastpass system will cause more people to want to ride per hour. Which maybe it would, if people go to ride simply because they have a Fastpass who might not have otherwise, but in that case the wait is getting longer because the ride is more "popular" and more people are riding. I don't see that as a bad thing necessarily. At worst, while that would make the wait for Pirates worse, it would be taking people from elsewhere in the park and making a wait somewhere else better.

See my last response. But I will expand a bit. I absolutely see adding FastPass to attractions that previously didn't need/didn't have it as adding more people to the queues for the attractions. Simply because you are now telling people that they need to pick the rides that they absolutely want to ride. I tagged @wilkeliza 's post in my last response, and I think they're absolutely right in that if you ask a person to pick which attractions they want to get a fastpass for, regardless of any other information (such as how long the wait is for the attraction normally), more people are going to be distributed to that attraction. And while this should alleviate some of the FP crowds on the attractions that have already had FP (and by some I mean VERY FEW), I think ultimately you're going to be adding more guests into the FastPass system overall. Because now it isn't just something that you pick up outside of an attraction on the day you visit the park. It now becomes part of the pre-trip planning just like ADRs (and you know how everyone just LOOOVES to plan their Disney World Vacations Months ahead of time). So instead of having people decide on the spot whether or not they want to get a FP for an attraction and basing that decision on how long the stand-by line is or what time the FP return window is, you're basically boiling it down to "do you want to ride it or not" well before they actually step foot in the park.

 

[rudyjr13]

I hear what you're saying and yes, it's possible, but I don't see it being likely at all. If no demand was added, and it was simply a shareshift of people moving from the Standby Line to the FastPass line, then yes, it would be a Net-Zero change. But I don't think that is going to be the case here, most because of the reason explained by @wilkeliza below:

I hear you and more playing devils advocate because I don't believe in adding FP to rides that don't need it. However we wont know the impact until it starts. Those people @wilkeliza mentioned could have easily been in the standby queue. But anyway I also wonder what happens if this new reservation FP systems FLOPS. Do they dump it then? I can't fathom scheduling my rides even if I didn't have 2 kids that were 3 and 2. This whole FP plus system is bizarre and the lack of information makes it much worse.

 

[meyeet]

you're basically boiling it down to "do you want to ride it or not" well before they actually step foot in the park.

I disagree, being able to plan ahead of time which rides you want to ride when, doesn't boil down to "do you want to ride it or not". The new option is a perk that you can guarantee that you don't wait long to ride a handful of rides. So while you may have to wait in line to ride PoC while others skip ahead with FP, they may have to wait in line for SM while you use your FP. I think the whole thing will average across all the rides in the parks.

 

[devoy1701]

I disagree, being able to plan ahead of time which rides you want to ride when, doesn't boil down to "do you want to ride it or not". The new option is a perk that you can guarantee that you don't wait long to ride a handful of rides. So while you may have to wait in line to ride PoC while others skip ahead with FP, they may have to wait in line for SM while you use your FP. I think the whole thing will average across all the rides in the parks.

It does though. Because in today's FastPass environment you have other factors that go into your decision...how long is the current Standby queue, What time is the Fast Pass return window currently at, what time is it now, etc. They take all of those away if you're picking your FP 30, 60, or 90 says prior to you being in the park and the decision becomes, here are 10 attractions that we offer FP for, you can choose 5 of them, so now it becomes "ok, well which 5 attractions do I want to make sure I get to ride?" Now you're not chancing it, your deciding right away, and if this becomes part of the standard process (or even if it's an add on for a nominal fee) more people are going to be doing it that use the current fast pass system. You're not just pulling from the same pool of FastPass users...you're greatly increasing the pool.

 

[Tim Lohr]

bad example. Stitch isn't a popular attraction in any regard....with or without fastpass.

There's no reason to think that the "demand" will increase because they add fast pass, if like you say it's 1000 per hour, why wouldn't that break down to 500 stand by and 500 fast pass? there's no reason it would suddenly jump to 1500 people per hour

bad math

 

[devoy1701]

There's no reason to think that the "demand" will increase because they add fast pass, if like you say it's 1000 per hour, why wouldn't that break down to 500 stand by and 500 fast pass? there's no reason it would suddenly jump to 1500 people per hour

bad math

You ignored the rest of the reasoning that has been brought forth in this discussion.

Also the original question was how it would increase the standby time, not overall demand. I can make a case for both (and did). Even if people are simply moving from one line to the other, it doesn't change the fact that the 80th person in the standby line will have to wait slightly longer now because the 80th person in the standby line is no longer the 80th person in line, they are now FP Queue + 80th person in line.

 

[elfshadowreaper]

Disney's magic is at its best when it picks you up from your world and places you in another world somewhere else. POTC queue nailed this. You feel like you're in a dungeon/castle. If they add LCD screens or talking skeletons it will break the illusion and you'll feel like you're in the electronics department at Walmart. The best queues have no interactivity, just immersive scenery and mood. I don't want to see more Johnny Depp in the queue. There's enough(if not too much) of him in the ride. Then again, this may not be a big overhaul.

 

[meyeet]

It does though. Because in today's FastPass environment you have other factors that go into your decision...how long is the current Standby queue, What time is the Fast Pass return window currently at, what time is it now, etc. They take all of those away if you're picking your FP 30, 60, or 90 says prior to you being in the park and the decision becomes, here are 10 attractions that we offer FP for, you can choose 5 of them, so now it becomes "ok, well which 5 attractions do I want to make sure I get to ride?" Now you're not chancing it, your deciding right away, and if this becomes part of the standard process (or even if it's an add on for a nominal fee) more people are going to be doing it that use the current fast pass system. You're not just pulling from the same pool of FastPass users...you're greatly increasing the pool.

I still disagree. We don't know that they aren't going to decrease the number of normal FastPasses or even use the same pool. I don't see the FP+ system dramatically increasing the number of guests in the park so you'll still have the same number of guests riding the same number of rides. And this is why I choose to go during the non-peek weeks of the year. I wasn't around for the discussions on the original FP but I'm sure the same arguments that you are making now were made back then.

 

[doctornick]

See my last response. But I will expand a bit. I absolutely see adding FastPass to attractions that previously didn't need/didn't have it as adding more people to the queues for the attractions. Simply because you are now telling people that they need to pick the rides that they absolutely want to ride. I tagged @wilkeliza 's post in my last response, and I think they're absolutely right in that if you ask a person to pick which attractions they want to get a fastpass for, regardless of any other information (such as how long the wait is for the attraction normally), more people are going to be distributed to that attraction. And while this should alleviate some of the FP crowds on the attractions that have already had FP (and by some I mean VERY FEW), I think ultimately you're going to be adding more guests into the FastPass system overall. Because now it isn't just something that you pick up outside of an attraction on the day you visit the park. It now becomes part of the pre-trip planning just like ADRs (and you know how everyone just LOOOVES to plan their Disney World Vacations Months ahead of time). So instead of having people decide on the spot whether or not they want to get a FP for an attraction and basing that decision on how long the stand-by line is or what time the FP return window is, you're basically boiling it down to "do you want to ride it or not" well before they actually step foot in the park.

I'm still not getting your concern. Let's just assume that this new system results in more people going to ride Pirates than would have previously. Yes, you've increased demand and wait times for that ride. But if tat happens, then those very same "new" people going onto Pirates won't be going on some other ride or doing something else. So, in that "worst case scenario" (from the prospective of the person in the Pirates standby line), you have someone else benefiting because these people using Pirates fastpasses won't be in line for Peter Pan or some other ride.

I guess I just don't see the problem because these scheduled fastpasses are essentially going to be shifting people from one attraction to another. Unless you believe that the system will result in significantly more people in the parks, you will still have the same number of people and the same number of attractions with the same ride capacity, so more people going onto Pirates (or Haunted Mansion or Dumbo or whatever else there are adding Fastpass+ to) is less people doing something else.

Let me ask you this: where do you think these "extra" people now using fastpasses for Pirates are coming from? What would they be doing if they didn't have fastpasses for Pirates?

 

[Tim Lohr]

The purpose of the new system is to allow gusts to hold multiple fast passes at the same time, and it lets Disney know what the demand will be on a given day before the park even opens

This is an account from a travel agent named Angela who got to test the new system from Jim Hill's site, you can read it yourself there, it's the final comment http://jimhillmedia.com/editor_in_c...pass-plus-at-the-magic-kingdom-this-week.aspx

 

[devoy1701]

The purpose of the new system is to allow gusts to hold multiple fast passes at the same time, and it lets Disney know what the demand will be on a given day before the park even opens

This is an account from a travel agent named Angela who got to test the new system from Jim Hill's site, you can read it yourself there, it's the final comment http://jimhillmedia.com/editor_in_c...pass-plus-at-the-magic-kingdom-this-week.aspx

so we are to assume that Disney is upfront with their guests with all of their motives?

Ok then. This is where I bow out.

 

[doctornick]

You ignored the rest of the reasoning that has been brought forth in this discussion.

Also the original question was how it would increase the standby time, not overall demand. I can make a case for both (and did). Even if people are simply moving from one line to the other, it doesn't change the fact that the 80th person in the standby line will have to wait slightly longer now because the 80th person in the standby line is no longer the 80th person in line, they are now FP Queue + 80th person in line.

But that 80th person might have a longer wait on PoC, but will be able to schedule a Fastpass+ for some other ride and save time there. Overall, you still have the same number of people, same number of rides, same amount of capacity. This is redistributing some wait times and it's not clear how it will do so since we don't know the mechanics of the system.

The one thing we can probably say for certainty is that some people will be negatively affected, some people will be positively affected and some people will be relatively unaffected. Which category an individual will fall into will be determined by a lot of things, most of which we don't know at this time.

It does though. Because in today's FastPass environment you have other factors that go into your decision...how long is the current Standby queue, What time is the Fast Pass return window currently at, what time is it now, etc. They take all of those away if you're picking your FP 30, 60, or 90 says prior to you being in the park and the decision becomes, here are 10 attractions that we offer FP for, you can choose 5 of them, so now it becomes "ok, well which 5 attractions do I want to make sure I get to ride?" Now you're not chancing it, your deciding right away, and if this becomes part of the standard process (or even if it's an add on for a nominal fee) more people are going to be doing it that use the current fast pass system. You're not just pulling from the same pool of FastPass users...you're greatly increasing the pool.

Okay, so it seems to me that your complaint boils down to "some people that previously didn't use Fastpass to save time will now use it and this will negatively affect people who already use Fastpass efficiently". That might be true, but so what? Do those less savvy patrons not deserve to have some benefits of the Fastpass system?

I don't see how it's de facto a bad thing that people would be able to determine ahead of time which rides they want to make sure they hit and schedule them.

 

[Witchy Chick]

The purpose of the new system is to allow gusts to hold multiple fast passes at the same time, and it lets Disney know what the demand will be on a given day before the park even opens

This is an account from a travel agent named Angela who got to test the new system from Jim Hill's site, you can read it yourself there, it's the final comment http://jimhillmedia.com/editor_in_c...pass-plus-at-the-magic-kingdom-this-week.aspx

From that link/comment:

The cast member asked what day I wanted to visit the Magic Kingdom, and would I prefer Morning, Afternoon, or Evening. (I learned from another couple I met on the bus that they were only given choices for Afternoon or Evening, as the Morning had apparently filled up.) Then I was presented with a double-sided laminated card, from which I could choose any four attractions. The cast member asked for my email address, and I received my itinerary by the time I arrived at my hotel.
My itinerary broke down like this:
Space Mountain 920am-1020am
Haunted Mansion 1115am-1215pm
Splash Mountain 1255pm-155pm
Jungle Cruise 225pm-325pm

So was her choice "morning" FPs or "afternoon" FPs?? 'Cause this looks like both to me. A SIX-HOUR window to use four FPs.

These options WILL NOT work with all guests -- particularly those with small children who will return to the resorts for afternoon naps.

The more I see/read about this new system, the less I like it.


Witchy

 

[devoy1701]

Okay, so it seems to me that your complaint boils down to "some people that previously didn't use Fastpass to save time will now use it and this will negatively affect people who already use Fastpass efficiently". That might be true, but so what? Do those less savvy patrons not deserve to have some benefits of the Fastpass system?

I don't see how it's de facto a bad thing that people would be able to determine ahead of time which rides they want to make sure they hit and schedule them.

I'm not saying it's de facto that it's a bad thing that people get to choose ahead of time. All I said was that more people will be using it. More people are more likely to pick 5 attractions they want a FP for when asked to make a decision than a person who is standing infront of an attraction with a 10 minute wait with FPs available, or an attraction with a 50 minute wait with a FP return time 6 hours away. So IMO, more people will be opting for a FP "just cuz" with the new system then with the current system. Again, some of these people might have already been FP users...and some of them are now going to be experiencing Pirates with their FP who might have been experiencing Space Mountain instead at that time...that's definitely true, but it's still more than just simple redistribution of people between FP attractions. Some of these guest might have ended up checking out TSI, or Small World, or Carousel of Progress, or Stitch, or some of the other non-FP attractions, but now they're utilizing the FP+ system so they can be sure that they don't "miss out" on one of those great headliner attractions that you need a FP for!

When you add in existing demand for attractions currently w/o FP + people already utilizing FP + people who didn't use FP anyway who are now being asked to pick attractions they want a FP for + people who would be riding some other non-FP attraction right now except they were told to pick an FP Attraction so they did, I don't see anyway around the new system increasing guest demand (and standby times) for all of the attractions that will use this new system.

You also make the point that a patron waiting for Pirates might have choosen to not get a FP for pirates but did choose to for another attraction with his FP+ option. One thing we don't know yet is what happens if this person is a single day, single park guest...or an off property guest, or an AP holder...do they get the option to use FP+? So perhaps they don't have the option to have chosen 5 FPs for other attractions. I don't know the answer to this one yet.

This is all opinion and speculation of course. But it boils down to Disney trying their best to control and influence guest behavior and attempt to alleviate strain on some of the existing, maxed out e-ticket attractions while trying to avoid actually having to add to attraction line ups and entertainment offerings. It is NOT fueled by the motive to "let people hold multiple FPs at one time."

 

[RSoxNo1]

Well it won't always be, eventually the interactive queue will be mandatory for Stand-by, but as I said before the only thing that's loud there is the Ride's Theme music, how can you be angry about that? The other sound effect is the Poetess which most people don't notice anyway.

The poetry book bothers me, and the busts outside bother me. I'm ok with everything else.

 

[RSoxNo1]

Maybe I should've phrased this differently... why do think adding fast pass will make the ride more popular? Stich's Escape has fast pass kiosks out front, but they rarely ever use them. I think this is what they're doing at Pirates, simply having the system in place for the occasions that they need it

This is a tool that has used to spread crowds, but usually it's used for surprise Fastpasses. The reality is, adding Fastpass to high capacity attractions is being done to "sell" the Fastpass+ service. If Disney elects not to schedule attractions prior to the day the guests enter the park, they can use the Fastpass+ service on a seasonal basis for high capacity attractions as needed. If that's what they elect to do, it's fine. However the testing and the reporting on Fastpass+ indicates that they are adding more attractions to the lineup in order to "make the numbers work". I've looked at the numbers pretty closely and the proposal that was made doesn't work. I can only hope that changes are made.

 

[RSoxNo1]

There's no reason to think that the "demand" will increase because they add fast pass, if like you say it's 1000 per hour, why wouldn't that break down to 500 stand by and 500 fast pass? there's no reason it would suddenly jump to 1500 people per hour

bad math

It's reasonable to say that the demand to ride Standby on an attraction will decrease after Fastpass has been added. Consider the following hypothetical estimates around Toy Story Mania:
75% of guests are willing to wait 20 minutes for Toy Story Mania
50% of guests are willing to wait 45 minutes for Toy Story Mania
25% of guests are willing to wait 75 minutes for Toy Story Mania
10% of guests are willing to wait 105 minutes for Toy Story Mania

As the standby wait time increases, the percentage of the remaining guests in the park willing to ride any given ride decreases. By adding Fastpass to an attraction you will lengthen the Standby line and decrease the demand to ride Standby. Having said that, more people will be using the previously unavailable Fastpass option to accomplish what they could previously do by riding Standby (get on the ride quickly).

 

[Tim Lohr]

It's reasonable to say that the demand to ride Standby on an attraction will decrease after Fastpass has been added. Consider the following hypothetical estimates around Toy Story Mania:
75% of guests are willing to wait 20 minutes for Toy Story Mania
50% of guests are willing to wait 45 minutes for Toy Story Mania
25% of guests are willing to wait 75 minutes for Toy Story Mania
10% of guests are willing to wait 105 minutes for Toy Story Mania

As the standby wait time increases, the percentage of the remaining guests in the park willing to ride any given ride decreases. By adding Fastpass to an attraction you will lengthen the Standby line and decrease the demand to ride Standby. Having said that, more people will be using the previously unavailable Fastpass option to accomplish what they could previously do by riding Standby (get on the ride quickly).

I don't see how this new system would affect the rides that currently have fast pass like Toy Story, but adding it to rides like Pirates and Haunted Mansion which already have 2 queue lines, allows Disney to "turn on and turn off" the fast pass system as it's needed...

Like if on a given day if there's a lot of requests for Pirates Fast Passes in "the afternoon" they can convert one queue line to fast pass for that window of time, then convert both back to stand by in "the evening", or if there's a day with very few requests for Pirates then they can inform the guest ahead of time that there's no need for a fast pass and issue a pass for a different attraction

 

[doctornick]

I'm not saying it's de facto that it's a bad thing that people get to choose ahead of time. All I said was that more people will be using it. More people are more likely to pick 5 attractions they want a FP for when asked to make a decision than a person who is standing infront of an attraction with a 10 minute wait with FPs available, or an attraction with a 50 minute wait with a FP return time 6 hours away. So IMO, more people will be opting for a FP "just cuz" with the new system then with the current system. Again, some of these people might have already been FP users...and some of them are now going to be experiencing Pirates with their FP who might have been experiencing Space Mountain instead at that time...that's definitely true, but it's still more than just simple redistribution of people between FP attractions. Some of these guest might have ended up checking out TSI, or Small World, or Carousel of Progress, or Stitch, or some of the other non-FP attractions, but now they're utilizing the FP+ system so they can be sure that they don't "miss out" on one of those great headliner attractions that you need a FP for!

Why wouldn't they still be going to TSI or Small World or Stitch, etc? It's just that they'll be going to PoC at their assigned time and not going "when they happen to be walking past it" or the like. It's not like people getting 4 or 5 Fastpass+ for a day are suddenly going to be not doing anything else in the parks -- the time they spend on rides utilizing those Fastpasses is going to be a small portion of their park time; most of their time is going to be spent exactly as it was before Fastpass+.

When you add in existing demand for attractions currently w/o FP + people already utilizing FP + people who didn't use FP anyway who are now being asked to pick attractions they want a FP for + people who would be riding some other non-FP attraction right now except they were told to pick an FP Attraction so they did, I don't see anyway around the new system increasing guest demand (and standby times) for all of the attractions that will use this new system.

Marginally, perhaps, because there will be some people who would not go on a particular attraction because "the wait is too long" and Fastpass+ might allow/encourage them to go on said attraction. But generally, demand should be static since Fastpass+ is (I expect) largely just going to shift people from the standby line to the Fastpass line, perhaps to a different time as well. But I don't think that suddenly the number of people waiting to ride PoC or HM is going to go up by 50% (or even 5%) in a given day, more like 1-2% at most. I mean, most people probably ride PoC when they go to MK anyway -- having a Fastpass+ means that person is just going to ride at that specific time, rather than when they happen to be in Adventureland.

You also make the point that a patron waiting for Pirates might have choosen to not get a FP for pirates but did choose to for another attraction with his FP+ option. One thing we don't know yet is what happens if this person is a single day, single park guest...or an off property guest, or an AP holder...do they get the option to use FP+? So perhaps they don't have the option to have chosen 5 FPs for other attractions. I don't know the answer to this one yet.

True. This goes back to the point that some people will benefit and some people will be hurt. For example, if Fastpass+ is open only to resort guests, then guests staying off site are likely going to be hurt while people staying on property will benefit. That's not really "good" or "bad", just how it is (or will be). The specifics of how the system is implemented will determine who benefits and who is hurt (and who is relatively unaffected).

Largely it seems to me that the complaining stems from the point that people who know how to maximize the current system (because they know the typical wait times for rides and when to ride and how to use Fastpasses to their fullest) are going to be hurt because other people will be getting more Fastpasses and using them. Obviously, the "once in a lifetime" folks who will likely benefit the most from this system aren't going to be obsessively posting on a Disney message board, so we are seeing a slanted view of the system because the people who post are more likely to be hurt.