News Paradise Pier Becoming Pixar Pier

Ismael Flores

Well-Known Member
If you can't explain your story on the ride itself, you've failed.

This seems like more of a backstory since it’s suppose to be the news clip of them being interviewed about the grand opening of the new coaster named after them.

If we said that screens explaining a back story makes a ride a failure than Tower of terror was the biggest failure because they literally use a tv screen to tell You the whole story while being in the queue
 

nevol

Well-Known Member
I guess Disney nerds don't like layers to their attraction stories. It's too much for their little flying Dumbo brains to process.
Watch Captain America: Civil War. There is plenty of rich socio-political commentary and backstory to support the plot, inspired by and therefore providing a reflection on contemporary society. Tons of reference too to other marvel characters and locales. Just like in Disneyland, nonfiction/reality is blurred with fantasy and the outcome is really fascinating. It is a slight shift of perspective and the world around us seems more fresh for it.
Then go on Guardians of the Galaxy. It is meaningless backstory that violates a ton of theme park design and entertainment design principles while doing nothing to enrich our understanding of our world or the marvel theme park universe or dca. Without leveraging things in reality, it gets difficult to suspend disbelief. Whereas Captain America / Marvel in general asks you to suspend disbelief in the fact that there are superheroes, the world they engage is ultimately relatable. On M:BO, not only is the presence of superheroes the one moment of disbelief, easy to accept because the rest of the context is clear and relatable, they are asking us to ignore our basic understandings of things as fundamental as museums. That is bad entertainment design! Sorry.
 

nevol

Well-Known Member
This seems like more of a backstory since it’s suppose to be the news clip of them being interviewed about the grand opening of the new coaster named after them.

If we said that screens explaining a back story makes a ride a failure than Tower of terror was the biggest failure because they literally use a tv screen to tell You the whole story while being in the queue
Except that the screen was the medium through which Rod Serling spoke to audiences for decades, so it mimicked the IP. You transition from watching an episode of the twilight zone to living an episode of the twilight zone. 2d-3d as the experience becomes yours. MMRRW will do something similar, in that you are in a theater, and enter a cartoon. Guardians and most other IP-based attractions can't get away with this just because they are based on a cinematic medium. If we are immersed in the storyworld from start to finish, there is no moment of transition/transcendence from the screen to the environment.
 

Hatbox Ghostbuster

Well-Known Member
Except that the screen was the medium through which Rod Serling spoke to audiences for decades, so it mimicked the IP. You transition from watching an episode of the twilight zone to living an episode of the twilight zone. 2d-3d as the experience becomes yours. MMRRW will do something similar, in that you are in a theater, and enter a cartoon. Guardians and most other IP-based attractions can't get away with this just because they are based on a cinematic medium. If we are immersed in the storyworld from start to finish, there is no moment of transition/transcendence from the screen to the environment.
Not unless we're somehow with them filming part of the movie, then stuff gets "real". Not the case here though.
 

Disney Irish

Premium Member
Watch Captain America: Civil War. There is plenty of rich socio-political commentary and backstory to support the plot, inspired by and therefore providing a reflection on contemporary society.
Then go on Guardians of the Galaxy. It is meaningless backstory that violates a ton of theme park design and entertainment design principles. Without leveraging things in reality, it gets difficult to suspend disbelief. Whereas Captain America / Marvel in general asks you to suspend disbelief in the fact that there are superheroes, the world they engage is ultimately relatable. On M:BO, not only is the presence of superheroes the one moment of disbelief, easy to accept because the rest of the context is clear and relatable, they are asking us to ignore our basic understandings of things as fundamental as museums. That is bad entertainment design! Sorry.

One question, does a museum that was meant to be built by aliens in another part of the galaxy have the same rules as a museum here on earth? If you believe so, why?
 

Phroobar

Well-Known Member
One question, does a museum that was meant to be built by aliens in another part of the galaxy have the same rules as a museum here on earth? If you believe so, why?
What do you mean by museum rules?

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nevol

Well-Known Member
One question, does a museum that was meant to be built by aliens in another part of the galaxy have the same rules as a museum here on earth? If you believe so, why?
If you want to go for total abstraction, then there would be no way to describe the experience and no reason to try. If it isn't a museum that we can relate to, then don't call it a museum. Leveraging existing knowledge leverages existing understanding of things. If they can't be described the way you are describing them, then you're just confusing people and better off not calling it a museum.

Abstraction is incompatible with theme park design though because in theme parks, every design element is selected to tell a story. Every aesthetic choice leverages our psychology, biology, society, and other fiction in order to create mood and understanding. Entertainment design communicates messages. Abstraction doesn't. Abstraction is the absence of meaning. If the scale of the collectors fortress is enough, so be it. Do we need to accept that the gantry lift is part of the tour? Or is there an alternative way of getting us onto the attraction in a gantry lift in the collectors fortress?

Also in response to phruby's comment that Disney can't win, whether or not they have a backstory. Backstory doesn't equal immersion. Many of the best immersive experiences are just that, experiences. HM, POTC, Space Mountain. Fully immersive, no backstory. Backstory can try to mimic film and gaming to create worldbuilding, but if something can't be buried properly in the world, the backstory has to be dumped on people, and that breaks immersion. If the rumors of boarding the escape ship from Batuu and getting intercepted by a star destroyer in the queue are true for battle escape, and we move from on planet through a ship, out of a ship facade and into the star destroyer hangar bay before boarding a ride vehicle, that would be INCREDIBLE immersion, worldbuilding, and backstory told through environments. Everybody will understand that and there won't be any videos telling us what is going on. The plot too and all that it leverages are things we understand, and it isn't asking us to redefine them. We are on a planet, safe, until an enemy force arrives, and we have to escape danger. We leave, get abducted/detained, and must escape to freedom. Theme parks and fiction more generally are a way to draw meaning from life. Even alien IPs are really just projections of human mythology and anxieties onto aliens, which is why star wars is basically about 20th century geopolitics and warfare. Nowhere are they expected to say "oh and this ship that you must escape from is actually a fast food restaurant in outer space, and your ship won't land in a hangar with other ships, it'll land in a restaurant bathroom. And you won't escape by getting off this ship, you'll escape by performing magic that is fluff not native to the IP or to this world. That is the difference between good and bad entertainment design!

And another way of thinking about the preshow in guardians: It feels to me like the word preshow carries a lot of collective memories. We know what a few of them are like, and how they prototypically work in themed attractions, how they've been done in the past. So it looks to me like there were preshow rooms leading to the ride, and they did what they could with that framework and the IP. If the IP was the only framework, I doubt it would have produced the sequence of rooms we pass through or the stop-to-watch-a-preshow video format. Just because something is extraterrestrial and different rules might apply on a different planet altogether doesn't mean that we can just excuse a bunch of bad design. That's just an excuse. Taken to its logical conclusion, another planet wouldn't have walking, talking creatures, televisions, rooms, any of this.

This coming from somebody looking forward to marvel at dca, and sw:ge. But I dont have to be fully against every single aspect of every Disney decision or blindly supporting it either to the extent that I can't think critically and would rather mock people who I don't agree with! Saying this in an effort to say that my end game isn't to defend some position to the death, but rather to have a discussion, and that the backstory somebody laid out for Guardians a few pages ago really gave me a ton of thoughts that I chose to share.
 
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Disney Irish

Premium Member
If you want to go for total abstraction, then there would be no way to describe the experience and no reason to try. Abstraction is incompatible with theme park design though because in theme parks, every design element is selected to tell a story. Every aesthetic choice leverages our psychology, biology, society, and other fiction in order to create mood and understanding. Entertainment design communicates messages. Abstraction doesn't. Abstraction is the absence of meaning. If the scale of the collectors fortress is enough, so be it. Do we need to accept that the gantry lift is part of the tour? Or is there an alternative way of getting us onto the attraction in a gantry lift in the collectors fortress?

Also in response to phruby's comment that Disney can't win, whether or not they have a backstory. Backstory doesn't equal immersion. Many of the best immersive experiences are just that, experiences. HM, POTC, Space Mountain. Fully immersive, no backstory. Backstory can try to mimic film and gaming to create worldbuilding, but if something can't be buried properly in the world, the backstory has to be dumped on people, and that breaks immersion. If the rumors of boarding the escape ship from Batuu and getting intercepted by a star destroyer in the queue are true for battle escape, and we move from on planet through a ship, out of a ship facade and into the star destroyer hangar bay before boarding a ride vehicle, that would be INCREDIBLE immersion, worldbuilding, and backstory told through environments. Everybody will understand that and there won't be any videos telling us what is going on. The plot too and all that it leverages are things we understand, and it isn't asking us to redefine them. We are on a planet, safe, until an enemy force arrives, and we have to escape danger. We leave, get abducted/detained, and must escape to freedom. Theme parks and fiction more generally are a way to draw meaning from life. Even alien IPs are really just projections of human mythology and anxieties onto aliens, which is why star wars is basically about 20th century geopolitics and warfare. Nowhere are they expected to say "oh and this ship that you must escape from is actually a fast food restaurant in outer space, and your ship won't land in a hangar with other ships, it'll land in a restaurant bathroom. And you won't escape by getting off this ship, you'll escape by performing magic that is fluff not native to the IP or to this world. That is the difference between good and bad entertainment design!

And another way of thinking about the preshow in guardians: It feels to me like the word preshow carries a lot of collective memories. We know what a few of them are like, and how they prototypically work in themed attractions, how they've been done in the past. So it looks to me like there were preshow rooms leading to the ride, and they did what they could with that framework and the IP. If the IP was the only framework, I doubt it would have produced the sequence of rooms we pass through or the stop-to-watch-a-preshow video format. Just because something is extraterrestrial and different rules might apply on a different planet altogether doesn't mean that we can just excuse a bunch of bad design. That's just an excuse. Taken to its logical conclusion, another planet wouldn't have walking, talking creatures, televisions, rooms, any of this.

This coming from somebody looking forward to marvel at dca, and sw:ge. But I dont have to be fully against every single aspect of every Disney decision or blindly supporting it either to the extent that I can't think critically and would rather mock people who I don't agree with! Saying this in an effort to say that my end game isn't to defend some position to the death, but rather to have a discussion, and that the backstory somebody laid out for Guardians a few pages ago really gave me a ton of thoughts that I chose to share.

Do you really feel the average guest is getting this deep into the minutiae of the attraction, I bet not. I don't think I ever heard anyone getting off the ride say "you know that was good but I don't understand why we're in a museum or have to board a gantry lift." They just say "OMG that was fun! Let's go again!".

If you want to get into the minutiae then you need to look into the backstory closer to understand the small details that you are questioning.
 

nevol

Well-Known Member
Do you really feel the average guest is getting this deep into the minutiae of the attraction, I bet not. I don't think I ever heard anyone getting off the ride say "you know that was good but I don't understand why we're in a museum or have to board a gantry lift." They just say "OMG that was fun! Let's go again!".

If you want to get into the minutiae then you need to look into the backstory closer to understand the small details that you are questioning.
Bad minutiae distracts people from having fun and pulls them out of the immersive story world. Theme parks deserve criticism and criticism is part of the design process that makes theme parks better, just like film. Defending bad design is like defending bad decisions and plot holes in a movie just because people will have fun seeing it. Would you be surprised to see people criticizing decisions made in the last jedi on a star wars or film enthusiast forum? Would you be surprised to find out that the years a film spends in development, anywhere really but particularly at Disney Animation, Pixar, Lucasfilm, and Marvel, goes through phases of development and criticism like this where rooms full of people need to speak up and say what isn't working for them, and what could be better? That without those discussions, if everybody just had the attitude of "nobody will notice," there would be no good movies, no good theme park attractions at all worth visiting, viewing, or discussing? Walt didn't become the success he did by saying "F it, they'll watch it anyway." Good projects are good when people are earnestly trying to make them so.
 

Disney Irish

Premium Member
Bad minutiae distracts people from having fun and pulls them out of the immersive story world. Theme parks deserve criticism and criticism is part of the design process that makes theme parks better, just like film. Defending bad design is like defending bad decisions and plot holes in a movie just because people will have fun seeing it. Would you be surprised to see people criticizing decisions made in the last jedi on a star wars or film enthusiast forum?

Go ahead and criticize. I was just pointing to what I felt were a couple holes in your statement.
 

DanielBB8

Well-Known Member
Watch Captain America: Civil War. There is plenty of rich socio-political commentary and backstory to support the plot, inspired by and therefore providing a reflection on contemporary society. Tons of reference too to other marvel characters and locales. Just like in Disneyland, nonfiction/reality is blurred with fantasy and the outcome is really fascinating. It is a slight shift of perspective and the world around us seems more fresh for it.
Then go on Guardians of the Galaxy. It is meaningless backstory that violates a ton of theme park design and entertainment design principles while doing nothing to enrich our understanding of our world or the marvel theme park universe or dca. Without leveraging things in reality, it gets difficult to suspend disbelief. Whereas Captain America / Marvel in general asks you to suspend disbelief in the fact that there are superheroes, the world they engage is ultimately relatable. On M:BO, not only is the presence of superheroes the one moment of disbelief, easy to accept because the rest of the context is clear and relatable, they are asking us to ignore our basic understandings of things as fundamental as museums. That is bad entertainment design! Sorry.
This comment is so loose that it makes no sense. First, Captain America: Civil War is a movie. You compared a movie with Guardians of the Galaxy the ride. This is apples to oranges comparison.

Then you say “violates a ton of theme park design and entertainment design principles” without saying what those principles are. How is any principles violated?

This discussion about Museums not being based on reality makes no sense especially with relating how it doesn’t suspend disbelief. You made all this up in your head. What a joke!
 

TROR

Well-Known Member
"What a joke!"

The backstory and worldbuilding between a theme park attraction and a film can be compared, and the necessity and relevance of said information is totally open for debate. I've wasted enough of my time on these forums. I can't explain everything to you. At some point I need to dip out of this waste of energy and you need to read and learn on your own. Discussing things with people with differing opinions here is mostly constructive for me, but your reading comprehension is so low, and attitude so combative, that it doesn't even deserve a response. I chuckle because when it isn't me, its always somebody else. Every single discussion I see your name in includes pages of you fighting over something without any substance.
The trick I learned...

Screen Shot 2018-03-23 at 1.50.25 PM.png
 

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