OS: Confederate Flag Removed from Epcot

[CaptainAmerica]

Disney does have to think about the message they are sending by leaving this symbol intact.

Are you kidding me? Who, in their right mind, would look at that flag and gather that Disney is sending the message "slavery is kewl"? That's how intellectually bankrupt we've become in this country. Nuance and subtlety have no place in our discourse because critical thinking skills have gone out the window.

 

[HolleBolleGijs]

I'm from the northeast, but ever since I was little, a house in my neighborhood proudly flew a confederate flag. I've always been kind of shocked that they would so openly display their support for the confederate army, even if the civil war was about more than just slavery. This is completely different than the hall of flags.

I understand Disney's reasoning. I don't necessarily agree with it, though. While many people are saying that Epcot is a theme park, it is based on education. Especially the American pavilion. If they were flying the confederate flag alongside the stars and stripes, and those were the only two flags present, then it would be a problem. But it's the hall of flags. With just about every flag from US history. People need to stop using entertainment as an excuse. Who on earth (aside from flag enthusiasts?) is entertained by a display of our nation's flag history (with or without the confederate flag)? It's just that - a historical exhibit (that many people overlook).

That all being said, they have every right to remove something that may offend certain visitors. It makes more sense for them to proactively remove the flag then it does to try to get people to stop being offended.

 

[Sage of Time]

I wonder how the people who run the holocaust museums would feel if they were asked to remove the Nazi flags.

That would never happen.

You're equating EPCOT to be a full on museum. As I just said, it can emulate one, but it's still a theme park emulating a museum. With that in mind, they have to be mindful of the things they have on display. A theme park isn't exactly the most appropriate place for a heavy talk on racism and public memory...

...unless it's spelled out as it is in the AmerAdv show. Tackling those issues in the context of a greater historical and patriotic narrative might work, but just having the flag sitting there in the Hall of Flags implies other issues.

 

[PhotoDave219]

That's the point I've been making about Frozen in the Norway pavilion for months, and many people (including you) have argued that no, in fact, Epcot IS (essentially) a museum.

NO, I don't think Epcot is a museum. I simply don't think it fits in the world showcase.

I think they're shortchanging the property and it's fans by shoehorning it in on the cheap and on a smallest capacity ride in Epcot.

Alas, that's a different argument for a different day and place.

 

[s8film40]

Removing a symbol from a theme park isn't pretending it didn't happen. A theme park isn't the right place to have these conversations.

I'll be incensed when it's removed from the history books and museums. EPCOT, despite being modeled after a museum, isn't really one, as long as Disney owns it and runs it for profit. It can certainly emulate a museum (and it should. A theme park dedicated to culture is a wonderful thing) but Disney does have to think about the message they are sending by leaving this symbol intact.

They don't just have these conversations they put on a whole show about them. I'm beginning to agree that a Disney park isn't the right place for this, it used to be though. With this thought in mind I think the whole show needs to be removed though not just one flag.

 

[Wikkler]

Let's remove the Germany pavilion, after all, they did start the Holocaust...

 

[Sage of Time]

Are you kidding me? Who, in their right mind, would look at that flag and gather that Disney is sending the message "slavery is kewl"? That's how intellectually bankrupt we've become in this country. Nuance and subtlety have no place in our discourse because critical thinking skills have gone out the window.

It's not exactly "slavery is cool", but the message is still tied to the south and the feelings associated with seeing the flag on display. For that reason, I'm not for it. I, personally, see the flag and feel negativity. I belong to a group of people that would NOT be treated equally by another group that flies the Confederate flag on occasion.

 

[PhotoDave219]

Do you consider the slave logs and all the other items on display in the lobby entertaining?

Edit to add: Although I quoted you Dave, it wasn't directed at only you, but at the idea that AA is not a museum exhibit.

They do have a museum within the building.

Someone was commenting on the film and suggesting the entire thing was a museum.

 

[CaptainAmerica]

Let's remove the Germany pavilion, after all, they did start the Holocaust...

Every single pavilion and every single flag would need to come down if we wanted to be intellectually consistent.

 

[AgeEight-E]

Removing a symbol from a theme park isn't pretending it didn't happen. A theme park isn't the right place to have these conversations.

I'll be incensed when it's removed from the history books and museums. EPCOT, despite being modeled after a museum, isn't really one, as long as Disney owns it and runs it for profit. It can certainly emulate a museum (and it should. A theme park dedicated to culture is a wonderful thing) but Disney does have to think about the message they are sending by leaving this symbol intact.

But Disney does have these conversations. The flag wasn't even the most stark symbol of the age of slavery that's present in that building, as others have pointed out. If you're against the flag being displayed there, you should also be against the entire thing.

As for what "message" they're sending, I think the clear message has always been that this was a very dark time in our history, and that's what it will continue to be with or without the flag. Posting that flag has never been a celebration or endorsement of Confederate ideals in the context of that Disney exhibit, any more than the display of the slave logs and so forth are. That's what its display on state buildings was, and why it was long past time for it to be removed there.

 

[Sage of Time]

They don't just have these conversations they put on a whole show about them. I'm beginning to agree that a Disney park isn't the right place for this, it used to be though. With this thought in mind I think the whole show needs to be removed though not just one flag.

The show is fine. The show explains things.

Just having the flag sitting there, with no explanation.... it is open ended. Open ended in this context is not preferable.

 

[Sage of Time]

Let's remove the Germany pavilion, after all, they did start the Holocaust...

No.

The German pavilion is fine. There's more to Germany than the holocaust.

that said... a swastika IN the pavilion is questionable. Sorry, I don't go to EPCOT to be reminded about genocide. I'll go to a memorial or a museum for that.

 

[Wikkler]

No.

The German pavilion is fine. There's more to Germany than the holocaust.

that said... a swastika IN the pavilion is questionable. Sorry, I don't go to EPCOT to be reminded about genocide. I'll go to a memorial or a museum for that.

That was my point... hence the

 

[Nubs70]

Moral high ground ? There you go again. Only if you choose to ignore the historical facts you can get away with that broad stroke. Remember that the Emancipation Proclamation was issued only after the third year of the Civil War, was an executive order not a law passed by the Congress, was at first a threat to those states which had succeeded that would be issued if they did not return to the union, and only applied to slaves in Confederate held lands not to those in Kentucky, Maryland, Delaware, Missouri, nor to Tennessee. It wasn't until 1865 with the adoption of the 13th amendment to the Constitution on December 6, 1865 that slavery was outlawed in the US.

Bingo!!!

Even if the Emancipation Proclamation has been passed by Congress, it would have no legal binding status to Confederate held lands as the CSA had removed themselves from the political union of the United States of America.

The Emancipation Proclamation did not free one person from slavery.

 

[Sage of Time]

That was my point... hence the

My apologies.

 

[NormC]

Eventually Political Correctness will Over Take US All.

/sarcasm

 

[CaptainAmerica]

It's not exactly "slavery is cool", but the message is still tied to the south and the feelings associated with seeing the flag on display. For that reason, I'm not for it. I, personally, see the flag and feel negativity. I belong to a group of people that would NOT be treated equally by another group that flies the Confederate flag on occasion.

There's no message, period. It's a flag. It's not saying "we support the things that anyone who's ever flown this flag also supported." It's saying "this flag existed once."

Catholics were executed under Henry VIII, but you don't see me protesting outside the UK pavilion.

 

[s8film40]

NO, I don't think Epcot is a museum.

I'm really not sure what you define as a museum. I think Epcot and other Disney parks are certainly more than a museum. Museums however are are a part of the Disney parks and American Adventure certainly has one of the best ones.

 

[Sage of Time]

There's no message, period. It's a flag. It's not saying "we support the things that anyone who's ever flown this flag also supported." It's saying "this flag existed once."

Catholics were executed under Henry VIII, but you don't see me protesting outside the UK pavilion.

Oh, but it is. It's a symbol. There is an unconscious message engrained into the public memory associated with it.

And yes, bad stuff happened in the UK. I don't see anything actually IN the UK pavilion symbolizing it, do you?

 

[CaptainAmerica]

And yes, bad stuff happened in the UK. I don't see anything actually IN the UK pavilion symbolizing it, do you?

There are British people. By your logic, "British people" are a "symbol" of every bad thing any British person has ever done. Because reasons.