OS: Confederate Flag Removed from Epcot

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PeoplemoverTTA

Well-Known Member
The problem today is that people are getting offended by EVERYTHING. And while that can be fine, as we all may have things that offend us personally, now more and more often they feel (for some reason) that everyone has to know that they're offended and simply use it to draw attention to themselves. In a lot of cases - not all - it's likely the display of their being offended isn't nearly as great as how much they actually feel.

I personally believe that it should stay in the hall but think that taking Dukes of Hazzard reruns off the air is a bit ridiculous. But back to my point...

We shouldn't be surprised by this decision from a company that teaches every employee to point with two fingers so that they don't offend anyone (although most of their guests likely wouldn't be offended, some would, so they made a strict policy to prevent it).

So while I have my feelings on what should have been done with the flag, I absolutely respect how they operate their business and the policies that enable them to try and create a certain environment for guests.
 

aw14

Well-Known Member
There is a certain expectation and duty on their part to accurately portray history since they chose to have historical exhibits. I think the big question here is not wether or not it's in their right but wether or not actions like this should lead to the publics distrust in Disney's ability to respect and accurately display history in an educational context. This attraction unlike others is not just about entertainment.
I would agree had Frozen not taken over Norway, and don't get me started on the 3 Caballeros
 

Californian Elitist

Well-Known Member
Had no clue a Confederate flag was on Disney property either, until this morning.

The Confederate flag greatly offends me, however, when it is used for education, museums, historical presentations/showcases, I'm fine with it being out in the open.

Not surprised Disney has made this move. They're just trying to be cautious, as usual.
 

s8film40

Well-Known Member
I would agree had Frozen not taken over Norway, and don't get me started on the 3 Caballeros
Sadly your are probably right and unfortunately attractions like American Adventure really don't belong in modern Disney parks. Now however they are in an awkward situation they now have an attraction solely based in history and they can't maintain the level of credibility to sustain it in that context.
 

flynnibus

Premium Member
And yes, bad stuff happened in the UK. I don't see anything actually IN the UK pavilion symbolizing it, do you?

Uhh... that palace there represents the monarcy... and the totalitarian government that instigated and supported those things... kind of like a flag that represents a government?
 

aw14

Well-Known Member
Sadly your are probably right and unfortunately attractions like American Adventure really don't belong in modern Disney parks. Now however they are in an awkward situation they now have an attraction solely based in history and they can't maintain the level of credibility to sustain it in that context.
Here I agree.

I think we all realize at this point that this is the entertainment business, and not the historical accuracy business.

If my DW @awheartsdw was signed on right now, she would tell you I am a stickler for historical accuracy. However, Disney has changed that philosophy a long time ago
 

misterID

Well-Known Member
That's actually not the confederate flag. Its basically a soldiers flag used in battle and a symbol based on the Scottish independence movement. That flag was used by Lee's army and adopted by other regiments because of the actual confederate flag's resemblance to the American flag which caused friendly fire deaths on both sides during the heat and confusion of battle. It was mainly used by Southern veterans after the war to pay tribute to their fallen comrades and at funerals. It was not used by hate groups and segregationists until the 1930's and 1960's and was used deliberately as a recruiting tool.

My stance is that it shouldn't be in state houses, but the US congress just quietly passed a law to ban confederate flags used one day out of the year on the headstones of dead confederate soldiers in confederate cemetaries. That's wrong and shows the slippery slope of whitewashing. And I think people have acted really poorly on both sides. We forget freed slaves were not welcome with open arms and treated like free Men in the north after the war and racism still exists in most of the country outside the south.

Disney is well within their right to remove it. But remember this, the history doesn't tell the whole story. The vast majority of confederate soldiers were poor, and were drafted and conscripted to fight by an industry that was the Confederacy, run by the wealthy slave holders of the planter class and the top 1% of the southern population.
 
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RandomPrincess

Keep Moving Forward
The Confederate Flag that everyone is fighting about should be removed in the interest of historical accuracy. It was never the official flag of the Confederacy. It should be used in battle reenactments or military museum displays where appropriate to the armies that used it as a battle flag.
 

s8film40

Well-Known Member
Then what is any display doing in the American Pavillion?
I think the point is the Disney company that built the American Adventure is not the same Disney company that is running it. The current state of the Disney company has no business hosting history based attractions, they lack the ability to do it justice.
 

Tom P.

Well-Known Member
If you like cheese... and I as the federal government come in and say "you can't have cheese!!" -- and you argue "you have no power to regulate what I eat... I don't recognize your claim"... and I say "well me and my buddies all agree, you can't have cheese!! and we get to tell you how things are"... and you say "well screw this, I'm not going to accept you trying to say I can't have cheese and i'll start my own government"

Is the conflict over cheese? Or is it over the conflict over who has the authority to define what people can and can't do?

Slavery was the point being disputed... but the root issue in dispute is over federal powers and what states would respect between each other. The slave economy states wanted their independence to do what they wanted, and were fired up over other states trying to manipulate and disregard their choices. Yes, some put "we will ensure CHEESE is not challenged" in their declarations... as basically the middle finger to those who thought to remove it because it was the item trying to be regulated.
This is one of the best explanations I have ever heard. Very well put. I will likely steal this explanation from you in the future. :)
 

PhotoDave219

Well-Known Member
The Confederate Flag that everyone is fighting about should be removed in the interest of historical accuracy. It was never the official flag of the Confederacy. It should be used in battle reenactments or military museum displays where appropriate to the armies that used it as a battle flag.

Exactly… It was the battle flag for the Army of the Potomac and the Naval flag as well.

It's time for it to take it's appropriate place in history and that is in the museum.
 

englanddg

One Little Spark...
That's actually not the confederate flag. Its basically a soldiers flag used in battle and a symbol based on the Scottish independence movement. That flag was used by Lee's army and adopted by other regiments because of the actual confederate flag's resemblance to the American flag which caused friendly fire deaths on both sides during the heat and confusion of battle. It was mainly used by Southern veterans after the war to pay tribute to their fallen comrades and at funerals. It was not used by hate groups and segregationists until the 1930's and 1960's and was used deliberately as a recruiting tool.

My stance is that it shouldn't be in state houses, but US congress just quietly passed a law to ban confederate flags used one day out of the year on the headstones of dead confederate soldiers in confederate cemetaries. That's wrong and shows the slippery slope of whitewashing. And I think people have acted really poorly on both sides. We forget freed slaves were not welcome with open arms and treated like free Men in the north after the war and racism still exists in most of the country, outside the south.

Disney is well within their right to remove it. But remember this, the history doesn't tell the whole story. The vast majority of confederate soldiers were poor, and were drafted and conscripted to fightfight by an industry that was the Confederacy, run by the wealthy slave holders of the planter class and the top 1% of the southern population.
This.

I have been trying to steer clear of the topic of the realities of the conflict, as it does not pertain to the display of it in the context of the Hall of Flags.

That said, too many people get their information from lop sided movies and a sloppily written chapter from their high school textbooks that they likely didnt even read, much less remember.

The south and the north both suffered heavily, but the behaviour of the union armies in the south (the first and only instance that the US military used total war tactics on that scale until WWII) led to a lot of the resentment which carried afterwards.

Combine that with the policies of reconstruction, and it becomes a seed of inept prideful decisions on both sides.

That sad part of our history is extremely important, and incredibly nuanced, assuming you read past the headlines of your favorite blog and actually form your own educated opinions on the topic instead of "blah blah slavery racism BAD!".

Well duh, yeah, it is bad. And the vast majority of the country believes so. There will always be bigoted cretons though, and its best just to ignore them.
 

s8film40

Well-Known Member
The point is that pin you posted was not a campaign button ever used by the Clintons and photos of either of them wearing it aren't likely to exist.

People are going as far as photoshopping the confederate flag in the background of 40+ year old photos of Hillary in attempts to smear her.
I think and this is a little off topic but the point some people are trying to make is that this really kind of came out of nowhere. The Confederate flag has gotten more attention in recent weeks than I can recall throughout my entire lifetime combined. It shows how media driven our society has become unfortunately. Good or bad a couple months from now no one will care about the flag and Disney can if they want quietly put it back up and no one will notice.

I think more importantly though if your going to host a historical based attraction you have to have the integrity to follow through with your exhibit and not just change it because of a current media story that will be gone in a short time.
 

misterID

Well-Known Member
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englanddg

One Little Spark...
The Confederate Flag that everyone is fighting about should be removed in the interest of historical accuracy. It was never the official flag of the Confederacy. It should be used in battle reenactments or military museum displays where appropriate to the armies that used it as a battle flag.
The battle flag that the country at large is fighting about was not the one that was taken down by Disney. The one that was on display at Disney was the third official flag of the Confederacy, however. And it did contain an element that was the battle flag (ir the flag of the army of VA, take your pick on what to call it).

As a side note, the elongated "confederate flag" that most people think of isnt even truly the battle flag. The battle flag was square. The "modern confederate flag" that is a rectangular version of the battle flag didn't come about until the 20th century.
 
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RandomPrincess

Keep Moving Forward
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