OS: Confederate Flag Removed from Epcot

[AgeEight-E]

I understand, just pondering why the arguments here?

Of course everyone is entitled to their own opinions, however, WDO is not going to care for a moment what a few folks on an online forum say.

Why do we debate anything Disney does here?

 

[WDF]

I didn't think the First Confederate flag had a star in the middle of the circle on the blue field. So which flag is that?

 

[flynnibus]

In retrospect, it's probably a good thing that Disney's America was never built.

puhaha... such a great observation. Disney would be rolling up the carpet because a generation later we can't deal with stuff.

Two generations from now a Disney dark ride will be nothing but empty space where you are expected to use your own imagination to project what you see... because companies won't risk putting something out that could offend SOMEONE... so they leave it to each person to make up their own attraction.

 

[Tom P.]

I have honestly not had the time to read all 10 pages of this thread yet, so I apologize if I am duplicating material. I've just skimmed some of it.

Personally, FWIW, I support the removal of the Confederate battle flag -- or any other Confederate symbolism -- from official government facilities in the United States, such as statehouses. I do not feel it appropriate there. State and federal government institutions should be flying the flags of their states and this nation and nothing else.

Having said that, I certainly do not support any attempt to restrict private citizens or private corporations from choosing to utilize that symbolism in any way they choose, even if those depictions may be offensive to some. The United States guarantees a right to freedom of expression, not a right to not be offended. Plus, all of the recent fervor surrounding the flag is reactionary and going way to far, IMHO. I also think it is a terrible disservice to our population if we attempt to "remove" or ignore those parts of history which we do not like or are not proud of. Our children need to know the things that the United States got wrong throughout its history so that we do not repeat them.

Having said all of THAT, however, this is Disney's call to make. I disagree with the removal. But I understand it. They're job is not to educate the American people about history. Their job is to get people to buy tickets so that they make money. And if they see a major controversy brewing, why put themselves in the middle of it and risk alienating potential customers? What seems to be missing, though, is any thought to people on the other side of the argument who they might be alienating by the removal. Regardless, though, it is certainly their call to make.

 

[ToInfinityAndBeyond]

This was a CYA move, and an understandable one at that.

Truer words were never spoken.

 

[AgeEight-E]

They did.

That's OK for a theme park to do. Not a museum.

In the smaller scale museum setting the flag was in, it's really not OK to do. It's an important exhibit, and the flag going missing robs it of some small portion of its context and meaning. That exhibit could be the only exposure some people ever get to a meaningful display about the horrors of our slave history.

Don't get me wrong: I'd be far more upset if they pulled out the entire exhibit to put in an Inside Out ride or something. The flag didn't make or break the show. But it does belong there, especially because it deserves to have its meaning entwined with slavery at every chance.

 

[RandomPrincess]

I think @PhotoDave219 is absolutely correct. Its presence would be far more noticeable and noted upon than its absence.

And I apologize if I came across as abrupt. I'm just so heartily sick of listening to defense of the Confederate Flag, the Confederacy, "Southern Pride", and the rest of it. I mean, I live in Northern Ohio, for Pete's sake. I'm not sure when the Mason-Dixon was moved to run through this state, but somehow (even though I'm less than 20 miles south of Lake Erie), I ended up on the wrong (southern) side of it.

The Mason - Dixon line does not separate the North and the South. It's sole purpose was to mark where the boarder between PA and MD and MD and DE was. They had a depute over their boarder in 1760s prior to the USA even existing. Maryland and PA were both granted the same land by the crown and this line was done as a compromise. Marylanders do not consider themselves part of the south even though they are south of the Mason-Dixon line. The line also does not mark where slavery existed or who was which side during the civil war.

 

[s8film40]

I understand, just pondering why the arguments here?

Of course everyone is entitled to their own opinions, however, WDO is not going to care for a moment what a few folks on an online forum say.

This was a CYA move, and an understandable one at that.

There is a certain expectation and duty on their part to accurately portray history since they chose to have historical exhibits. I think the big question here is not wether or not it's in their right but wether or not actions like this should lead to the publics distrust in Disney's ability to respect and accurately display history in an educational context. This attraction unlike others is not just about entertainment.

 

[arko]

Read the text.

The Emancipation Proclamation declared:
1. States, and parts of States, that were considered in rebellion.
2. State of rebellion was only for a period of 100 days.
3. Those held as slaves in the areas considered to be in rebellion were considered free men.

Problem is the Union had not legal binding authority on any of the areas considered to be in rebellion as those areas were no longer part of the political union known as the United States.

The political union was not restored until after the war. Then the Emancipation Proclamation would have legal binding authority.

And any slave that made it to union controlled territory either by Union advances or running away was considered a free man. This was done because up until that point their status was in question. You are correct from a strictly practical point of view these people were not freed, what it did was cement their status as free men once they entered Union controlled territory. Up until that point Union forces could overtake Confederate territory and the slaves of that area would still be considered the legal property of their owners.

 

[flynnibus]

Let's not cross hairs about States' rights. As a Texas native, I hear so many of my colleagues and peers use the argument of States' rights when discussing the Civil War. The CSA were certainly concerned about rights being delegated to the States, which was an issue the southern States fought and bickered about since the writing of the Constitution (and before).

The main reason the southern delegates wanted stronger State's rights was to continue the practice of slavery, which supported the crop-growing economy.

If you like cheese... and I as the federal government come in and say "you can't have cheese!!" -- and you argue "you have no power to regulate what I eat... I don't recognize your claim"... and I say "well me and my buddies all agree, you can't have cheese!! and we get to tell you how things are"... and you say "well screw this, I'm not going to accept you trying to say I can't have cheese and i'll start my own government"

Is the conflict over cheese? Or is it over the conflict over who has the authority to define what people can and can't do?

Slavery was the point being disputed... but the root issue in dispute is over federal powers and what states would respect between each other. The slave economy states wanted their independence to do what they wanted, and were fired up over other states trying to manipulate and disregard their choices. Yes, some put "we will ensure CHEESE is not challenged" in their declarations... as basically the middle finger to those who thought to remove it because it was the item trying to be regulated.

 

[s8film40]

I think my desire to see this in a show would speak volumes about my respect for history and my enjoyment of the American Adventure.

Don't take offense, but your desire to paint people as disrespectful and bored by history because they disagree with you on this subject is off-putting. Your admirable skills as a debater would be taken with greater respect if you were to drop that defensive pretext.

I am simply trying to understand if you saw the show how you were able to miss the explanation of what this flag represented. I have experienced this attraction many times it seemed obvious to me.

 

[flynnibus]

Slavery is still practiced in Africa. Should they remove the Outpost from World Showcase?

Boycott Animal Kingdom!!!

 

[arko]

There is a certain expectation and duty on their part to accurately portray history since they chose to have historical exhibits. I think the big question here is not wether or not it's in their right but wether or not actions like this should lead to the publics distrust in Disney's ability to respect and accurately display history in an educational context. This attraction unlike others is not just about entertainment.

Then the proper way to do that is to display an actual historical flag in a section that educuates about the Civil War.

 

[njDizFan]

I think this thread has 2 completely different discussions going on and they are getting muddled.

1) Does the confederate flag still belong in the AA(which I believe is the crux of the thread). I despise the confederate flag but I'm okay with leaving it hanging. Although I do get why Disney and many Corps/States etc are trying to distance themselves from the controversy. That I can see being debated as to whether its context belongs in an amusement park and the merits of AA as an actual museum.

2) The other discussion here is the current representation of the confederate flag really means. And this issue has to be seperate from the first because there is a seperation between historical context and why people wish to fly the flag. What is the reason for flying the confederate flag on your house/car/t-shirts etc? Is that individual exceedingly proud of the region of the United States they they were born or raised? Akin to showing pride of foreign ancestory. Or more probably the confederate flag as a symbol. And what does it symbolize? It is often a symbol of bigotry or a symbol of defiance. Either way it is a person expression that is offencive and harkons back to an age of slavery and other things that I believe are just too political for this forum(liberal vs conservative values)

Now being overly PC can go to extremes but you want to be on the right side of history and civil issues are always eventually adopted as norm and that makes us a better and more tolerant nation(e.g LGBT, sufferage movement, prohibition)

 

[englanddg]

I didn't think the First Confederate flag had a star in the middle of the circle on the blue field. So which flag is that?

It is the a variation of the 13 star Stars and Bars, I'd imagine. I know that the there is a Tennessee regiment that used a similar version, though the Stars and Bars I generally see with 13 stars (the first version had 7 and the second 11) have them in a Betsy Ross style circle.

Anyhow, that is the official flag of the south (the one that was removed was the 3rd approved one, after the "stainless banner" was decided to look too much like a flag of truce, or at least that's how I understand it. I missed it in that picture, but as pointed out, that IS the Stars and Bars.

 

[lazyboy97o]

Actuall no by adopting a constitution over the original articles of confederation the notion of secession was removed. In fact anti federalists attempted to added secession language to New York's ratification message and it was rejected and the constitution was ratified without it.
This was confirmed by the Supreme Court in 1869 in Texas v. White. What has been confirmed is the extra constitutional right to revolt, which is what the south did, and that revolt failed.

And the Confederate state had to be re admitted, an odd thing to require if they were never allowed to leave in the first place. They were also denied their federally protected right to republic government and one was split apart without the consent of its legislature.

Alas it's not a museum. It's an attraction meant to entertain.

So? Since you've decided to remake yourself into Mr. Attendance why don't you tell us what the TEA and AECOM track attendance of, theme parks and...?

 

[s8film40]

Then the proper way to do that is to display an actual historical flag in a section that educuates about the Civil War.

Umm that's exactly what they do. Are you referring to the flag not being originally from the period, because it's common for museums to use replicas to tell their story so that's not really a valid point.

 

[AgeEight-E]

I think this thread has 2 completely different discussions going on and they are getting muddled.

1) Does the confederate flag still belong in the AA(which I believe is the crux of the thread). I despise the confederate flag but I'm okay with leaving it hanging. Although I do get why Disney and many Corps/States etc are trying to distance themselves from the controversy. That I can see being debated as to whether its context belongs in an amusement park and the merits of AA as an actual museum.

2) The other discussion here is the current representation of the confederate flag really means. And this issue has to be seperate from the first because there is a seperation between historical context and why people wish to fly the flag. What is the reason for flying the confederate flag on your house/car/t-shirts etc? Is that individual exceedingly proud of the region of the United States they they were born or raised? Akin to showing pride of foreign ancestory. Or more probably the confederate flag as a symbol. And what does it symbolize? It is often a symbol of bigotry or a symbol of defiance. Either way it is a person expression that is offencive and harkons back to an age of slavery and other things that I believe are just too political for this forum(liberal vs conservative values)

Now being overly PC can go to extremes but you want to be on the right side of history and civil issues are always eventually adopted as norm and that makes us a better and more tolerant nation(e.g LGBT, sufferage movement, prohibition)

I don't know, I think most of us who have spoken up seem to be pretty much in agreement on 2. It's 1 I see as the main debate being carried out here.

 

[aw14]

Why do we debate anything Disney does here?

good question

 

[arko]

The Mason - Dixon line does not separate the North and the South. It's sole purpose was to mark where the boarder between PA and MD and MD and DE was. They had a depute over their boarder in 1760s prior to the USA even existing. Maryland and PA were both granted the same land by the crown and this line was done as a compromise. Marylanders do not consider themselves part of the south even though they are south of the Mason-Dixon line. The line also does not mark where slavery existed or who was which side during the civil war.

This is correct, the line that delineated where slavery existed is parallel 36°30′ north, with the exception of Missouri which exists above and below the line. This was decided in the Missouri comprmoise of 1820.