Orlando High Speed Rail IS DEFINITE

[CDavid]

HSR or the like, only make sense as a short distance delivery system, like between the airport and WDW with stops at Universal and Sea World...

False. The idea that "passenger trains only make sense in short and medium distance corridors where they can compete with airplanes" (as it is commonly phrased) is probably both the most pervasive and most mistaken myth in passenger rail. It is not the airplane but the automobile which is the trains' primary competition, and current 79 mph trains are already faster than highway travel for longer distances (say, 500-2,000 miles). It isn't that trains make more sense in short distance corridors so much that airplanes don't make sense there.

Again, "high-speed rail" wasn't an appropriate choice for an airport to Disney/I-Drive shuttle anyway - what you want is a modern light-rail system, coordinated with Lynx and Sunrail. Indeed, light-rail arguably even makes more sense than HSR for the rail connection with Tampa (and its own light-rail system). True HSR isn't what most of the nation - certainly including Florida - really needs anyway; Rather, the next step should be incrementally improved and expanded "conventional" passenger rail on freight shared right-of-way, at speeds of 79 to 110 mph.

Florida will be going ahead with the Jacksonville to Miami east coast passenger service mentioned previously, a project apparently farther along than most people were expecting.

You can't be suprised that the Fla governor cut this project. Just like Christie in NJ cut the new Hudson river crossing tunnel. These projects are just too progressive in today's environment. With public sentiment being for government to cut spending, any politician that would potentially have to raise spending or taxes would be publically vilified.

There were valid reasons for killing the ARC tunnel beyond mere finances, though that was an issue.

 

[lazyboy97o]

Every American is a tourist when they are on vacation, so a 'tourist' route would actually serve ALL Americans, compared to a niche route like Tampa to Orlando which would only serve, perhaps businessman (but most likely nobody, since I-4 is there)...you'd think the law would read the opposite, 'Federal dollars will only be spent where it can benefit the many'...not the niche few.

Definitely the rule of unintended consequences. The rule was obviously meant t keep such systems in line for use of the many locals, not the few tourists who would find it easier to use; but in a state such as Florida, and especially Orlando, the local economy is tourism you end up with projects that are forced away from where both locals and tourists are heading.

 

[scottnj1966]

unbelievable.....and after the state already spent 66 million.

This is nothing new. The last ten years or so has seen money spent to see if high speed rail anywhere around Orlando would be worth it. Everytime money is spent, and then it is cancelled.

Over and over again.

It's sad to see so much money blown.

 

[TP2000]

But we did get the People Mover here in Jacksonville, despite all of the naysayers, because it was expected to revitalize downtown, ease traffic, and make us a major convention center. Didn't quite work out that way.

Is that why they built that thing? I've only been to Jacksonville once, driving through, and I remember trying to figure out who thought that was a good idea.

As for Florida HSR being cancelled outright, it's a bit surprising, at least for me who hadn't been following the story since Christmas.

But I have to give Governor Scott a pat on the back for sticking to his principles. Long-term, the lack of required subsidies to keep the thing running at a fraction of its projected ridership will be a good thing for Florida taxpayers.

Here in SoCal, this news hasn't hit yet. I only found out by reading wdwmagic. I wonder where Florida's 2.7 Billion will go? Secretary LaHood has been spurned by several other states in the last few months, so he's gotten used to bringing another check to his other stable girlfrien... uh, his other predictable states planning high speed rail.

 

[flavious27]

You can't be suprised that the Fla governor cut this project. Just like Christie in NJ cut the new Hudson river crossing tunnel. These projects are just too progressive in today's environment. With public sentiment being for government to cut spending, any politician that would potentially have to raise spending or taxes would be publically vilified.

Well christie had a reason to cancel that project, nj was on hook for a project that primarily benefited another state.

 

[slappy magoo]

Well christie had a reason to cancel that project, nj was on hook for a project that primarily benefited another state.

If you ignore all the NJ citizens who work in NY, and all the NY citizens who would have moved to NJ because there was now a quicker and more efficient means to get to work, sure.

 

[TP2000]

It is not the airplane but the automobile which is the trains' primary competition, and current 79 mph trains are already faster than highway travel for longer distances (say, 500-2,000 miles). It isn't that trains make more sense in short distance corridors so much that airplanes don't make sense there.

That takes a big leap of faith that Amtrak can actually keep their trains at 79MPH, instead of waiting along sidings for hours at a time, or creeping through metro areas at 20MPH.

Living here in Orange County, California, I take the Surfliner to LA or San Diego a few times a year, mainly for easy museum runs in either city. And I've taken the Coast Starlight from LA to Seattle many times in the last decade. It's usually faster for me to take my car on the great Southern California Freeway System. And including a 10 hour sleep/meal layover at the Oregon border, you can make the 28 hour car trip from SoCal to Portland or Seattle in less time than the 34 hours the Coast Starlight schedules itself (assuming the Coast Starlight is actually on time when it gets to Seattle, when it's rarely less than 3 hours late). Crazy people with a fellow driver in the car drive straight through from Seattle to LA in 18 hours or less, with several stops for burgers and gas.

Once Amtrak builds their own rails and stops begging the freight railroads to let them squeeze past freight trains every few hours, then maybe they can consistently get their fleet up to 79MPH. Or, heaven forbid, actually go the 90-100MPH that train equipment was designed for in the first place.

But to say the train is faster than the car to go 500 miles? Assuming you aren't talking Acela Express service... You'd have to create the biggest traffic jam on earth, and then have Amtrak pull off a scheduling miracle to make that claim actually happen. In my amateur rail-riding opinion of course. :wave:

 

[JEANYLASER]

It will be awesome to ride the bullet train our family wanted to see it in person!

 

[WDW1974]

You can't be suprised that the Fla governor cut this project. Just like Christie in NJ cut the new Hudson river crossing tunnel. These projects are just too progressive in today's environment. With public sentiment being for government to cut spending, any politician that would potentially have to raise spending or taxes would be publically vilified.

I wasn't a huge fan of the set up for this project. It needs to run statewide and hit major population centers from Jacksonville to Miami to Tampa ... BUT you need to start somewhere. This was that start. And it was largely with federal dollars ... and let's not forget the construction (and other) jobs that would have come along for the ride. Of course this is the same dude who believes he can create jobs by axing state workers, so the (lack of) mindset shouldn't surprise.

We are so backward in this country these days, I wonder if as a nation we have jumped the shark. Europe gets the importance of high speed rail. Asia gets the importance of high speed rail. ... We all decide that gas is going to last forever (and let's not forget the nations we deal with in order to get much of that oil) and you'll pry our car keys from our cold dead hands.

It's so stupid, so short term. It's the kind of thinking one would expect from a Disney executive.

 

[lazyboy97o]

I wasn't a huge fan of the set up for this project. It needs to run statewide and hit major population centers from Jacksonville to Miami to Tampa ... BUT you need to start somewhere. This was that start. And it was largely with federal dollars ... and let's not forget the construction (and other) jobs that would have come along for the ride.

We are so backward in this country these days, I wonder if as a nation we have jumped the shark. Europe gets the importance of high speed rail. Asia gets the importance of high speed rail. ... We all decide that gas is going to last forever (and let's not forget the nations we deal with in order to get much of that oil) and you'll pry our car keys from our cold dead hands.

It's so stupid, so short term. It's the kind of thinking one would expect from a Disney executive.

And plenty of people who want to see high speed rail in this country agree that starting here is a bad idea that would only set things back. And of course, thanks for keeping things non-political, this had been a pretty rational discussion.

 

[_Scar]

And plenty of people who want to see high speed rail in this country agree that starting here is a bad idea that would only set things back. And of course, thanks for keeping things non-political, this had been a pretty rational discussion.

Starting with one of the most visited tourist spots in the United States- not to mention in the whold wide world with almost 7 billion people in it- is a bad idea. :shrug:

 

[lazyboy97o]

Starting with one of the most visited tourist spots in the world- not to mention in the United States- is a bad idea. :shrug:

This whole thread is full of reason why it is a bad idea. Be it the lack of demand for travel between Tampa and Orlando or that expensive high speed technology is not needed to meet the desired travel times or that the locations, and number of stops, prevent the high speed technology from actually being utilized. There are also rules against gearing a system around tourists, which has been discussed. It has all been covered why several other options are good ideas for the area, but not a good use of expensive high speed technology.

 

[SeaCastle]

If you ignore all the NJ citizens who work in NY, and all the NY citizens who would have moved to NJ because there was now a quicker and more efficient means to get to work, sure.

New Jersey got the short end of the stick there...getting stuck with the likely hundreds of millions in cost overruns that would have happend anyway, and we'd have to pay the bill. Thankfully there is significant private sector interest in the project, so we may end up getting those tunnels. But do you really believe Christie would have cut the largest public works project in the nation that would have created 6,000+ jobs just for the hell of it?

Back on topic, I'm a bit surprised that people on here have their panties in such a knot about the HSR for Florida being cancelled, when they vehemently argued against the usefulness of it when jt was pushing it forward.

 

[The Mom]

Second warning. It is possible to discuss this without attacking/supporting particular parties or politicians. And without personal attacks.

So, please go back to the civil discussion of the majority of posters .

 

[fillerup]

Second warning. It is possible to discuss this without attacking/supporting particular parties or politicians. And without personal attacks.

So, please go back to the civil discussion of the majority of posters .

Thank you.

 

[_Scar]

New Jersey got the short end of the stick there...getting stuck with the likely hundreds of millions in cost overruns that would have happend anyway, and we'd have to pay the bill. Thankfully there is significant private sector interest in the project, so we may end up getting those tunnels. But do you really believe Christie would have cut the largest public works project in the nation that would have created 6,000+ jobs just for the hell of it?

Back on topic, I'm a bit surprised that people on here have their panties in such a knot about the HSR for Florida being cancelled, when they vehemently argued against the usefulness of it when jt was pushing it forward.

It really all boils down to oil and energy for our future. A bullet train would ultimately save gas- a lot of it, so consumers will walk more once off the train (healthly America, yay), spend money they would have otherwise spent on gas (Economic circular flow, yay), and it would help the USA actually be able to compete with other countries :lol:

 

[WDW1974]

And plenty of people who want to see high speed rail in this country agree that starting here is a bad idea that would only set things back. And of course, thanks for keeping things non-political, this had been a pretty rational discussion.

Please, this is a political topic. If the powers that be don't want it here then they have every right to close it or move it ... but you don't take a multi-billion dollar political hot potato and pretend it's something different.
Again, that's like trying to talk about the HoP and AA and pretend that there's nothing political there either ... doesn't work.

And, again, I said I had some issues with the plan as presented. But you need to start somewhere and if this was gonna be it, then it should have been allowed. I don't know if you reside in FLA, but this state is hurting in a way I have never seen. It needs jobs, real high-paying jobs and it needs to start to get into the 21st century.

At some point we have to give up the oil addiction and embrace rail travel like the rest of the world. And you have to start somewhere.

 

[_Scar]

The only reason this topic is back up on page 1 of WDWMagic is because Rick Scott is turning down the money, so it's hard not to bring him up when discussing the whole situation?

O:

 

[bugsbunny]

I live about 15 minutes from 30th Street Station in Philly. I looked at taking the train from Philly to Orlando. For 2 adults and 1 child, its $650 round trip for regular seats and it takes 20 hours one way. Or I could get a 1 room for about $1100 and still take 20 hours. Either way, I still need to gather my stuff and get from the train station to WDW somehow. More added time and expenses. Not to mention, I could fly for about $600-$700 from Philly or Atlantic City airport in about 2 hours.

I just drove PHL to WDW in December and it took about 15 hours and less than $250 in expenses. Rail will never again be even remotely in competition with ANY from of travel. Those days ended about the same time: invention of the Interstate road system and the jet liner. This is common knowledge, so why does rail constantly come up as our fix for any future transportation problems? Nobody wants to pay for it and equally so, nobody seems to want to use it for anything else than maybe getting around a congested city. For longer distances, nobody wants/cares for it.

When I use to fly to Boston a lot for work, I would always fly. Its like 40 minutes wheels up and wheels down. Add in security and stuff, its like 90 minutes to get to Boston and its easily less than $200, sometimes even less than $150. The train is like 5 hours and double that price!!

I completely see why Florida canned the rail deal. Personally, I would simply never even consider flying to Tampa to take the train to Orlando and I'm sure nobody else is either. I have no idea how they could propose to spend $3-$4billion to build a rail system that wouldn't pay for itself in 50 years.

 

[The Mom]

The only reason this topic is back up on page 1 of WDWMagic is because Rick Scott is turning down the money, so it's hard not to bring him up when discussing the whole situation?

O:

But you can try.