Orlando High Speed Rail IS DEFINITE

[WorldKey]

I would have much rather seen this line starting with Orlando - Miami, not Tampa. At least with Miami we would be linking two of the world's top tourism destinations. Tampa doesn't fit in with that.

That would have been a MUCH better proposal!

 

[fillerup]

I have to agree. Any discussion at all about the High Speed Rail line is in itself political discussion.

Not really. It's actually been a 24 page, almost completely civil discussion about economics, ridership, would it benefit the WDW traveler, would it burden the Florida taxpayer.

There's been plenty of disagreement without being disagreeable.

 

[s8film40]

Not really. It's actually been a 24 page, almost completely civil discussion about economics, ridership, would it benefit the WDW traveler, would it burden the Florida taxpayer.

There's been plenty of disagreement without being disagreeable.

At it's core this is a political issue. Tax money is paying for it and two different political sides are fighting to either build this or stop it. Unless we're discussing what color the trains will be we are on some level discussing a political topic. I think this thread shows that politics can be discussed very civilly when those with opposing opinions are educated and focused about the issue at hand. This usually isn't the case with other political discussions.

 

[Master Yoda]

The Interstate and other roads would have that written on them as well. All forms of transport are a huge bill for the public. Anyone who tells you otherwise isn't looking at all aspects.

The problem with rail, is that we need to pay for modernization of a system that has languished since commercial air travel took off (no pun intended) in the middle of the last century. Road and air travel haven't had this problem* as they've enjoy plenty of modernization $$s during that same time.

You will be stuck footing the bill on HSR, just like your currently stuck footing the bill for your highways, interstates, roads, airports, etc. It's not necessarily bad or good, just the way it is.

Even with the funding they've received, many local and state roads are still in an inadequate state.

I have no problem spending tax dollars on something that is used. I have an issue using tax dollars to send empty trains from one place to another. HSR would turn out just like the skyway did in Jacksonville. It works great for the 1,000 people that use it and the remaining 999,000 end up flipping the bill for it. I'll wager the the number of people that do not benefit in some, if even an indirect way, from the highway system is as close to zero as is statistically possible.

 

[SMRT-1]

Not really. It's actually been a 24 page, almost completely civil discussion about economics, ridership, would it benefit the WDW traveler, would it burden the Florida taxpayer.

There's been plenty of disagreement without being disagreeable.

it was about the above. now it's political because all of those topics have been destroyed.

 

[Wilt Dasney]

At it's core this is a political issue. Tax money is paying for it and two different political sides are fighting to either build this or stop it. Unless we're discussing what color the trains will be we are on some level discussing a political topic. I think this thread shows that politics can be discussed very civilly when those with opposing opinions are educated and focused about the issue at hand. This usually isn't the case with other political discussions.

The relative calm in this thread is helped by the fact that this topic hasn't been turned into a campaign ad football for either side...yet.

 

[Horizonsfan]

I'll wager the the number of people that do not benefit in some, if even an indirect way, from the highway system is as close to zero as is statistically possible.

I guess that's my point though. If HSR is designed a way that is large enough (like the interstate system of the 50s) and fast enough to make it a viable alternative to the roads. The reason other nations subsidize a high-speed rail system is that it is attractive to business and increases the quality of life. It also, once again when designed to facilitate business and community growth, can alleviate the need for more lanes on highways and cut pollution that would be caused by extra vehicles.

HSR would turn out just like the skyway did in Jacksonville. It works great for the 1,000 people that use it and the remaining 999,000 end up flipping the bill for it.

I get that the local transit plan didn't pan out, but that is too definite a statement to say that HSR wouldn't be used. It is a truth that Japan and everyother nation's system is subsidized; but last time I checked Japan and Europe's trains weren't having ridership problems on the whole.

To create the Interstate Highway System cost the US $460 BILLION (in today's dollars), and that's just to create the initial highways. If today we invested an equal amount in a backbone system for HSR across the nation it could be incredible.

 

[lazyboy97o]

However, nobody should doubt the need for improved and expanded passenger rail service in the sunshine state. Florida may yet go forward with "conventional" passenger rail service (79 mph, maybe 90 eventually) between Jacksonville and Miami along Florida's east coast.

I think there should still a serious look at conventional rail along the same right of way.

You will be stuck footing the bill on HSR, just like your currently stuck footing the bill for your highways, interstates, roads, airports, etc. It's not necessarily bad or good, just the way it is.

The biggest problem with this proposal was that the people were being asked to foot the bill for expensive technology that would ultimately get no use. The problem though is that the cheaper options do not have the awe factor of "high speed rail".

 

[Wilt Dasney]

I'm kind of glad the plan is dead. I'm very sympathetic to the idea of expanded rail in and between the nation's urban hubs, but this plan never felt right.

If this had turned out to be a boondoggle with empty trains shuttling back and forth over such a small distance between two relatively small population bases, it could have become a poster child for anyone who wanted to argue that rail is a waste of money. In the worst case, it might have killed any future chance at expanding the network.

Better to focus on the LA-to-SF project in California. If any route seems built for success, that would be it. Maybe if that project takes off, people will look at Florida again, with a more serious and comprehensive plan that would do more than shuttle people between Disney World and Bucs football games.

 

[s8film40]

To create the Interstate Highway System cost the US $460 BILLION (in today's dollars), and that's just to create the initial highways. If today we invested an equal amount in a backbone system for HSR across the nation it could be incredible.

That really is the real problem. We are so heavily invested in the highway system that any rail attempt is destined to fail. I think the problem is that every time someone comes up with a solution it involves a completely different approach that completely ignores the existing system, and so it's no wonder that it will fail. What we need is a new more creative approach that is a better transition from the Automobile/highway system to a rail system.

I think if someone could come up with a system that with minor changes could accommodate high speed trains as well as allow automobile to travel on an automated guided system many people would see the benefit in this and it could actually catch on.

 

[Horizonsfan]

I'm kind of glad the plan is dead. I'm very sympathetic to the idea of expanded rail in and between the nation's urban hubs, but this plan never felt right.

If this had turned out to be a boondoggle with empty trains shuttling back and forth over such a small distance between two relatively small population bases, it could have become a poster child for anyone who wanted to argue that rail is a waste of money.

Better to focus on the LA-to-SF project in California. If any route seems built for success, that would be it. Maybe if that project takes off, people will look at Florida again, with a more serious and comprehensive plan that would do more than shuttle people between Disney World and Bucs football games.

I will say that the biggest debacle of the FL HSR plan is/was that they focused the starter line on the wrong spots. Too many stations for such a short line (relatively). Specifically the MCO, Convention Cntr, WDW section was too many stops for what is a less than hour long drive.

There have been many out there who have speculated, like you have, that if HSR is to succeed anywhere, that CA is it's testing ground. I'll guess we'll have to see if that's true.

 

[Krack]

 

[Horizonsfan]

I think if someone could come up with a system that with minor changes could accommodate high speed trains as well as allow automobile to travel on an automated guided system many people would see the benefit in this and it could actually catch on.

Absolutely, at the end of the day our primary mode of transport is roads.

It all boils down to what do we do about the congestion and pollution. What should be invested/looked into (along with alternative fuel sources) is the automated car systems that Google is developing using lasers, computers, and GPS. With an automated system you could maximize a communities travel time, pollution, safety, congestion, and ultimately productivity.

 

[fillerup]

Many of us are fans of rail, but just felt this was the wrong project.

For a view on HSR in general, here's a column from 2/14 from Robert Samuelson of the Wash Post/Newsweek for anyone interested in this topic:

High-speed rail is a fast track to government waste

And no one would ever accuse Samuelson of being a conservative.

 

[JeffH]

Only $460 Billion...

That $460 billion in todays dollars to build the interstate system would fund less than ten HSR routes (being generous), and that money was spent over about a fifty year timespan, costing us only about ten billion a year to fund for a road system used extensively by probably ninety percent of the population.
We used to use trains...a hundred years ago, just because they sped them up a bit doesn't make them anymore viable.
HSR or the like, only make sense as a short distance delivery system, like between the airport and WDW with stops at Universal and Sea World...

 

[Bolna]

These trains that they are propsing as 'high speed' would make the people of Europe laugh. The top speed is not anything like the bullet trains of Europe. I have read that we are talking about top speeds of maybe 100 mph which doesn't shave enough time off to have a massive increase in ridership.

100 mph top speed really isn't high speed in Germany - that's the top speed of some regional trains. ICE trains (German high speed) travel at 150-175 mph depending on which kind of track they use.

I think one of the reasons why Europe and the US aren't comparable is that most European cities have rather compact city centers which have an extensive system of public transport. The advantage of taking the train is that you arrive in the city center and don't have to endure traffic jams to get there and you don't need to find parking (either rare or expensive). High Speed trains here seem to also compete with air traffic for shorter flights. Once again, the advantage of arriving in the city center and not at some airport far away, is why people are ok with a longer travel time on the train.

 

[_Scar]

Hell yea! Who needs modernization anyway? Overrated.

 

[fillerup]

HSR or the like, only make sense as a short distance delivery system, like between the airport and WDW with stops at Universal and Sea World...

While this may or may not be true, a route like this could only be built with private or state money. Federal rules prohibit the use of federal money to build systems that primarily serve the tourist market.

That's why, unfortunately, Sunrail in Orlando won't come within 10 miles of WDW - the largest single site employer in North America - even though there are tens of thousands of low paid CMs who might benefit from such a system.

 

[JeffH]

That's government for you...

Federal rules prohibit the use of federal money to build systems that primarily serve the tourist market.

Every American is a tourist when they are on vacation, so a 'tourist' route would actually serve ALL Americans, compared to a niche route like Tampa to Orlando which would only serve, perhaps businessman (but most likely nobody, since I-4 is there)...you'd think the law would read the opposite, 'Federal dollars will only be spent where it can benefit the many'...not the niche few.
---------
On the comparison to the Interstates, which effectively replaced trains, in our case we lived with only the I-4 spur (and part of I-95) until virtually all of the Interstate in the rest of the country was done, so it would have been ironic if the 1st HSR was built along the same corridor.

<bitter note>...and as a result of our 'patience' we were rewarded with a BS toll portion of I-75 in Southern FL (Alligator Alley), bonds of which had been paid off (we are now paying off the bonds issued to build NEW toll-booths, how special)...why do we have to pay for our Interstate (which we paid into for a century).

 

[njDizFan]

You can't be suprised that the Fla governor cut this project. Just like Christie in NJ cut the new Hudson river crossing tunnel. These projects are just too progressive in today's environment. With public sentiment being for government to cut spending, any politician that would potentially have to raise spending or taxes would be publically vilified.