Numbers, Cars and Quality ...

Pixiedustmaker

Well-Known Member
I'm not sure I'd assume this. Disney seems to adhere to the first Ferengi Rule of Acquisition: "once you have their money, you never give it back!" In other words, they have you as a customer already - they already have your money - and might want to focus their efforts (their rewards) on those who haven't paid yet.

Seems like the the 12th rule of acquisition might also apply, "Anything worth selling is worth selling twice." They could initially make Fast Pass + free to DVC customers, and then add charges later when folks get hooked.
 

ParentsOf4

Well-Known Member
I'm not sure I'd assume this. Disney seems to adhere to the first Ferengi Rule of Acquisition: "once you have their money, you never give it back!" In other words, they have you as a customer already - they already have your money - and might want to focus their efforts (their rewards) on those who haven't paid yet.
WDW classifies DVC as "Deluxe Villa Resorts". WDW is still selling DVCs. At $165/point for BLT and probably more for the Grand Floridian, I suspect DVC members will be given the Deluxe treatment. DVCs are advertised as a way to save money while staying at Deluxe Resorts. They would be more difficult to sell without treating DVC members as Deluxe. Besides, I believe DVC represents only about 10% of all rooms.

Even when WDW changed the rules on resales, they were smart enough to grandfather in all previous resales. No existing members lost any benefits so nobody protested. I can imagine the firestorm it would create if DVC members were given anything less than the Deluxe treatment. Even if WDW offered Deluxe treatment to new DVC members only, it would raise a lot of uncomfortable questions for new sales. "You're giving me Deluxe privileges now but not to anyone already in the DVC system. Are you going to take them away from me in the future?"
 

GoofGoof

Premium Member
I'm not sure I'd assume this. Disney seems to adhere to the first Ferengi Rule of Acquisition: "once you have their money, you never give it back!" In other words, they have you as a customer already - they already have your money - and might want to focus their efforts (their rewards) on those who haven't paid yet.

This could happen. If it does then I would have to see what it costs to participate. If its pricey I would just skip it. Probably worth and extra $40 to $50 per day for MK, more than that no way.

I have the feeling that DVC will get at least what the deluxe guests get if this really happens. They just recently significantly increased the discount on premium annual passes since I think they are realizing that people can/will rent a car and go to Sea World and Uni even if they are staying in a DVC unit. With DVC you are not locked into free dining or the DDP at all so DVC guests in a way are more likely to spend time (and more importantly money) off property.
 

flynnibus

Premium Member
There is a quote from Steve Jobs near the end of the Biography that talks about the downfall of previous greats. It seems to ring very true for TWDC as well.

The opening echos Walt's as it relates to money too.. we start off

Steve Jobs said:
My passion has been to build an enduring company where people were motivated to make great products. Everything else was secondary. Sure, it was great to make a profit, because that was what allowed you to make great products. But the products, not the profits, were the motivation.

Walt was concerned with money - because he knew it was what empowered him to carry out his visions.. but it wasn't the prime motivation. The delivery of his concept was the primary.

He continues..
Steve Jobs said:
Scully flipped these priorities to where the goal was to make money. It's a subtle difference, but it ends up meaning everything: the people you hire, who gets promoted, what you discuss in meetings.
Some people say, "Give the customers what they want." But that's not my approach. Our job is to figure out what they're going to want before they do. I think Henry Ford once said, "If I'd asked customers what they wanted, they would have told me, 'A faster horse!'" People don't know what they want until you show it to them. That's why I never rely on market research. Our task is to read things that are not yet on the page.

This is another important aspect (tho Jobs at times took it a bit too far..) - that you must be AHEAD of the customers if you are to deliver that knock out product - that disruptor. That's what Walt did with his theme park - not build a 'better', 'refined' amusement park - he changed the game and understood what guests would like and want, before they even knew it themselves.

The next element is what I think rings the most true for TWDC of the 90s on. I can echo Job's beliefs in this section because I've seen it in my own companies as well.. and what the difference is between passionate companies looking to succeed - and companies and people just looking to continue...

Steve Jobs said:
It's easy to thorw stones at Microsoft. They've clearly fallen from their dominance. They've become mostly irrelevant. And yet I appreciate what they did and how hard it was. They were very good at the business side of things. They were never as ambitious product-wise as they should have been. Bill likes to portray himself as a man of the product, but he's really not. He's a businessperson. Winning business was more important than making great products. He ended up the wealthiest guy around, and if that was his goal, then he achieved it. But it's never been my goal, and I wonder, in the end, if it was his goal. I admire him for the company he built -- it's impressive -- and I enjoyed working with him. He's bright and actually has a good sense of humor. But Microsoft never had the humanities and liberal arts in its DNA. Even when they saw the Mac, they couldn't copy it well. They totally didn't get it.
I have my own theory about why decline happens at companies like IBM or Microsoft. The company does a great job, innovates and becomes a monopoly or close to it in some field, and then the quality of the product becomes less important. The company starts valuing the great salesmen, because they're the ones who can move the needle on revenues, not the product engineers and designers. So the salespeople end up running the company. John Akers at IBM was a smart, eloquent, fantastic salesperson, but he didn't know anything about the product. The same thing happened at Xerox. When the sales guy run the company, the product guys don't matter so much, and a lot of them just turn off. It happened at Apple when Scully came in, which was my fault, and it happened when Ballmer took over at Microsoft. Apple was lucky and it rebounded, but I don't think anything will change at Microsoft as long as Ballmer is running it.

I have seen this myself in technology companies - and it paralells what has happened at TWDC as well IMO as the company entered the mid eighties and had something to 'prove' and into the 90s as the expectations of public companies has changed with the bredth and access to the markets. @WDW1974 has eluded to this in other posts about what companies focus on and it's my belief the changes in the stock market from computerized trading, to day trading, to the 24/7 news channels have all contributed to make the companies slaves to the quarterly estimates and deliverables. That pressure on the top, in turn is reflected internally - and top down, the company has been focused on sales and not about building the best products. As Jobs said in the quote, it's a subtle difference, but anyone in business who has been in the world of creating products probably can reflect on that and see past coworkers as one or the other.

Jobs and Walt both believed in building the right product - and the rest would take care of itself. The 'sales first' or in TWDC today, the 'business first', mentality will steer clear of risk and focus on optimization, revenue streams, and ways of eeking a few more drops of blood from the stone.. rather than believe in the product first.

The parallels in this conversation from Jobs echo about Gates and Iger too.

I don't idolize Jobs in any way possible, but some of his attitudes and thoughts about what you set out a company to do.. and be.. reenforce what I've seen myself in the difference between great companies and just companies that manage to book a lot of revenue.
 

asianway

Well-Known Member
WDW classifies DVC as "Deluxe Villa Resorts". WDW is still selling DVCs. At $165/point for BLT and probably more for the Grand Floridian, I suspect DVC members will be given the Deluxe treatment. DVCs are advertised as a way to save money while staying at Deluxe Resorts. They would be more difficult to sell without treating DVC members as Deluxe. Besides, I believe DVC represents only about 10% of all rooms.

Even when WDW changed the rules on resales, they were smart enough to grandfather in all previous resales. No existing members lost any benefits so nobody protested. I can imagine the firestorm it would create if DVC members were given anything less than the Deluxe treatment. Even if WDW offered Deluxe treatment to new DVC members only, it would raise a lot of uncomfortable questions for new sales. "You're giving me Deluxe privileges now but not to anyone already in the DVC system. Are you going to take them away from me in the future?"
Entirely possible-DVC members are entitled to whatever is in the condominium documents, which is home resort use rights. Nothing more. All additional privileges are subject to change at any time at the discretion of DVC. People need to understand what they are purchasing...
 

GoofGoof

Premium Member
People need to understand what they are purchasing...

I didn't see anyone claiming that DVC owners would be entitled to anything. This is all speculation until the details are released. Maybe I missed some posts where DVC owners claimed they would be entitled to something...
 

gonnichi

Well-Known Member
Fully flesh out parks 2, 3, and 4. Expand the most visited theme park with some innovative rides whether it be E, D,C, etc. How about unique merchandise? There is a reason why families walk out of WWOHP spending hundreds of dollars worth of merchandise - yet every store you go in between MK and DHS will sell you same stuff.

I really wish they would do this. Parks 2, 3 and 4 need help. But apparently TDO does Not see the full need yet. WDW is just going to get more and more stale as other parks become greater and greater. Apparently there is no need for new high tech great rides at WDW ( no coaster for Avatar, a remake of carsland that may be lame, kiddie coaster in NFL, empty attractions in Epcot). Also WDW will not be getting Marvel and it seems like maybe nothing great from Star Wars either. So other Disney Parks will become even greater as WDW declines. As for Universal and Sea World they are getting new great attractions and this doesnt seem to be stopping anytime soon. In the end WDW will just lose its importance to people. Until a large enough audience realizes this and starts to skip WDW no real change will come.

Unless Next Generation can save WDW. this is just my opinion.
 

DisneyparkFreak

Active Member
Does he even have any power to stop this on the East Coast, Im not sure he does.. Maybe someone can answer who knows more.

I would bet... That any pixar property would need his sign-off. I'm not an expert, but I bet he is someone that you wouldn't want to tick-off. If he were to leave it would be a significant hit to Disney. IMO when Disney bought pixar, they got a twofer. JL is our generations Walt Disney, probably the only one on the planet that can channel the creativity, expression and enthusiasm that Walt had. Didn't CarsLand and RSR come from him?
 

DisneyparkFreak

Active Member
OK, suppose for a minute that they do build Cars Land in Florida, and they majorly cheap out on it. Would it be even a moderate success, or would it be a flop?

If it is a flop, they should have no option but to conclude that it is the cheapness and the cost-cutting that destroyed it, right? After all the concept was successful beyond their wildest dreams in California. What else could make a big enough difference besides the execution?

On the other hand, if they cheap out and does not flop, then they will conclude that cost cutting is a successful way to continue running the business in Florida.

I would think that initially it would be a hit, mainly because people would be expecting an exact clone of the DCA version. However, once they enter the attraction and all their hope is gone and they realize they just walked into what a 4th grader could do, their enthusiasm would wane. So HS would get the tick for the visit, but I would doubt that if given the choice between DCA and HS people would choose HS. It actually might increase attendance at DCA.
 

Ciciwoowoo

Well-Known Member
Two thoughts I'd like to add to this discussion:

1. Is it possible the 1.5 billion plus being invested in Next Gen technology is not only for the use of Disney, but for potential development of a program that Disney can sell to any theme park, hotel, or other area of interest in the future?

2. I believe that some of the best DVC customers are the people who already own DVC and decide to add on additional points. It would behoove the company to continue to make the DVC members happy.

Until a year or so ago, the DVC perks kept dwindling. The treatment of current DVC members became better once there was a change at the helm of the DVC ship. So yes, I think DVC members will share in the FP+ benefits offered to the Premium resorts.


My parents are DVC members. I am an associate on their account and direct and plan their vacations. Oh, and when we go next year, we are staying at one of the lovely DVC resorts...and going to see Shamu and Harry Potter instead. Did I mention we will have a car instead of taking the Magic Bus? Guess we will have to go visit some of interesting places to eat around the greater Orlando area instead of the buffets this time.
 

Pentacat

Well-Known Member
OK....if this goes as badly as we think it will who will be ultimately held responsible? Will they all be gone? The abandon ship call has already been made....is Captian Iger going to stay and go down with the ship?

Come on wasting a paltry $2 billion won't turn the shareholders against the man who landed Pixar, Marvel and Lucas. By the time that pill turns bitter the new Star Wars movies will be minting money for Disney that will make everything all better. I think Iger would like to stay in the public eye as CEO until he can buy himself a nice Senate Seat for the Empire state in 2016...or maybe a nice Governorship in 2014.
 

Cosmic Commando

Well-Known Member
Come on wasting a paltry $2 billion won't turn the shareholders against the man who landed Pixar, Marvel and Lucas. By the time that pill turns bitter the new Star Wars movies will be minting money for Disney that will make everything all better. I think Iger would like to stay in the public eye as CEO until he can buy himself a nice Senate Seat for the Empire state in 2016...or maybe a nice Governorship in 2014.
There's also option C: he could wait to run for Senate until 2018. Then he'd face Kirsten Gillibrand (a relative newcomer) instead of Chuck Schumer (one of the more powerful senators). My hunch though is that after being a CEO, he wants to be an executive.
 

ParentsOf4

Well-Known Member
Two thoughts I'd like to add to this discussion:

1. Is it possible the 1.5 billion plus being invested in Next Gen technology is not only for the use of Disney, but for potential development of a program that Disney can sell to any theme park, hotel, or other area of interest in the future?

2. I believe that some of the best DVC customers are the people who already own DVC and decide to add on additional points. It would behoove the company to continue to make the DVC members happy.
1. I'm not sure it makes financial sense for WDW to invest $1.5B in a "new" technology only to sell it to its competition. Furthermore, there's nothing particularly proprietary or cutting edge in what's being lumped together under the heading of Next Gen and, based on WDW's recent inefficiencies, I suspect it would be less expensive for other companies to develop their own versions of Next Gen rather than try to buy/rent it from Disney and then customize it for their particular needs.

If Next Gen is what I think it is, WDW is simply catching up to existing consumer technology and repackaging how it sells its current products to generate more revenue and reduce cost. The following posts contain further information:

http://forums.wdwmagic.com/threads/numbers-cars-and-quality.856357/page-17#post-5225009

And:

http://forums.wdwmagic.com/threads/numbers-cars-and-quality.856357/page-18#post-5225183

2. New DVC members are "better" customers for WDW than existing DVC members. New DVC customers represent additional ticket, food, and merchandise purchases. When DVC members add points, the incremental revenue from ticket sales is small ($10/day under WDW's current ticketing system) or none (if the existing DVC member has an Annual Pass). DVC members tend to eat more in the room than other guests. DVCs offer in-room kitchens, after all. Finally, DVC members probably don't buy a lot more merchandise when they lengthen or increase their number of stays but new DVC members do buy more.

However, it makes sense for Next Gen to keep existing DVC members happy for the reasons I outlined here:

http://forums.wdwmagic.com/threads/numbers-cars-and-quality.856357/page-22#post-5227040

And here:

http://forums.wdwmagic.com/threads/numbers-cars-and-quality.856357/page-22#post-5227283

I'm not suggesting it will happen, only theorizing that it should happen if I correctly understand TDO's business model.

Returning the discussion back to the OP, I'm beginning to believe WDW is getting Next Gen while other Disney theme park locations are or will be getting fancy new lands because TDO has crunched the numbers and determined that there's more revenue and profits to be had in Next Gen then there is in adding fully realized new lands. WDW has a growing number of empty hotel rooms that need to be filled. TDO's recent propensity to "minus" its new lands is occurring because TDO believes it doesn't need to create a $500M version of Avatarland when it thinks Next Gen plus a $400M version of Avatarland will bring in more revenue. I'm not suggesting TDO is right, only theorizing what I think TDO's strategy is.
 

flynnibus

Premium Member
If Next Gen is what I think it is, WDW is simply catching up to existing consumer technology and repackaging how it sells its current products to generate more revenue and reduce cost. The following posts contain further information:

No way. Even if they don't commission a single piece of new RFID gear - the software and workflow integration alone will be completely unique. No one is doing this at this level of integration or scale in a theme park or even in the direct hands of customers. That doesn't come easy.
 

ParentsOf4

Well-Known Member
No way. Even if they don't commission a single piece of new RFID gear - the software and workflow integration alone will be completely unique. No one is doing this at this level of integration or scale in a theme park or even in the direct hands of customers. That doesn't come easy.
From what I've seen so far, Next Gen is not creating new technology. Instead, it's evolving existing COTS technology and integrating these into a unified system. IMHO, that's repackaging. Next Gen might offer a "new" theme park experience but most (all?) of its individual components are already well-established (or at least available) in other industries.

From a business perspective (and assuming I understand TDO's goal), I believe these evolutions are important because they will better support a multi-tiered theme park experience (that TDO can then charge for) and represent sufficient change to the theme park experience so that TDO can raise prices for everyone, even those whose might lose more than they gain.

If you wonder what I mean by this second point, just look at what happened when WDW introduced Magic Your Way tickets. WDW claimed it was less expensive but, if you looked at the details closely, you discovered that you were paying significantly more for the same tickets as previously offered. Basically, TDO needs to change things enough to make it confusing for the average consumer to realize they are being charged more for less.
 

disneyflush

Well-Known Member
Lets say someone is booking their first trip down to WDW for the family. They will stay 5 nights and thats really all they have decided. They will see the advertisements for booking all your favorite rides and attractions before you leave, no lines, a simpler vacation, etc. Say Disney gives this family of 4 people 1 Fast Pass/person/day just for staying onsite at a value resort. The planner is wanting to get the most value possible out of this 1 FP and sweats bullets trying to make the right decision. It comes down to Soarin or TT on their first day. He chooses Soarin and books his times but has that lingering doubt he made the right decision. Then a screen pops up asking if he'd like to get an additional 2 FP's/person/day for free! He just would need to schedule a time to attend a presentation for Disney's Best Kept Secret. Fast passes are going to be the new Disney Dollars down there. Every upsell possible during the planning stage will involve them.
 

baymenxpac

Well-Known Member
Seems like the the 12th rule of acquisition might also apply, "Anything worth selling is worth selling twice." They could initially make Fast Pass + free to DVC customers, and then add charges later when folks get hooked.

sort of like when you bought into DVC, you got free park passes during your trips...

...

...

until the year 2000.

yeah, lots of members still sore about that one.
 

WDW1974

Well-Known Member
Original Poster
This is a great question: should a visit to WDW take all that work to maximize??? I may have enjoyed the game for a brief time but its the biggest deterrent for me now. Everything I've read about NextGen sounds like a flipping miserable way to vacation. Not only would I not pay extra for that, I'll pay extra to steer clear entirely. Yikes!

I have to plan so much for work and life that WDW is supposed to be an escape (isn't that the Spirited Fanboi Haters whine as they smoke on the Pixie Dust pipe?) ... Planning everything six months ahead of time and then paying for extra for everything sounds like the polar opposite of an escape.

It sounds like WDW is going to try the airline model of 'unbundling' things and having people pay a la carte ... I wouldn't even have so much of an issue if they were say, dropping a general admission ticket to like $20. This sounds much like what it is, an excuse to create a new revenue stream for a mature business by stratifying guests and charging for many things that once were free (included in all admissions from one day tix to PAPs).
 

WDW1974

Well-Known Member
Original Poster
I agree with this, but WDW has not been an affordable family vacation since the early 80s. I remember going as a kid around 1986 and my family had to save for several years to afford it. We did stay at CR for a full week so I guess we could have stayed off property and gone for less time, but my point is it was pretty expensive back then and the prices have sky rocketed ever since. The average working class family can't really afford WDW now. Doesn't stop a lot from going. Credit card debt is the American way. Making FP+ an additional cost and/or available only to deluxe resort guests will add to this, but IMHO the WDW as an affordable family vacation ship set sail a long time ago.

i would disagree with this ... WDW was actually much more affordable for the average middle class or even working class family in the 1980s than it is today. Everything is so much more when you account for price increases and inflation and the fact wages are stagnant and have been forever in this nation (if you actually have a job).

I know it was much easier to afford the Beach Club (and justify staying there) 20 years ago than it is today.
Who are these folks who look like they live in trailers that are paying $300-400-500-600 a night to stay at WDW?
 

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