Numbers, Cars and Quality ...

[GoofGoof]

To judge by some of the responses from management when asked if it's for everyone, they might not have made up their minds. "We're working on it" was the reply when asked about annual passholders. So who knows. Maybe they'll give annuals a single reservation per day, rather than four like the hotel guests.

If the overall number of reservations for the E-ticket rides drop, then the standby lines will become more tolerable, unless the math is more complex than I'm assuming. That's the bottom line. The FP+ on stuff like Turtle Talk and Idol don't factor into the E-ticket reservations total or the E-ticket standby line, as far as I can see (setting aside the fact that some rubes may "use up" their precious reservations on Idol... but I doubt there are many that silly. In this era of the Internet, everyone is going to know what to use the reservations for).

I assume that the E tickets will have a limited number of FP+ available so the only way I see anyone using it for some of the minor attractions is if everything else runs out but you still have some left to use. It is interesting that they didn't flat out deny that it would be limited to hotel guests.

 

[flynnibus]

It seems unlikely they would spend this much just to enhance guest's experience

Well I don't see it as just 'enhance guest experience' but CHANGE. Imagine the change when we went from all bank tellers to having ATMs. It wasn't just convenience - it changed our complete expectation of how banking should be. I think they are shooting for fundamental shifts like that. Not just 'hey, Disney is nicer' but trying to make the other parks seem like dinosaurs in how you visit and do other things.

I mean.. imagine if you will.. if you never had to camp out for fireworks. Don't you think if when you went to another park, and you had to get there 45mins early to get a space. Don't you think someone would go 'man, having to save a spot like this is like the dark ages...' - I think it's that type of shift they are going for. Not just 'better customer service' - but fundamentally shift how people think what a theme park visit should be like.

Are they right? I dunno. Can they pull it off? Dunno. But I see them aiming big. Instead of just trying to be 'better' year over year.. they are looking to change the game period. I think that is how someone justifies such a big spend. Not about 'improvements' - but change the game.

It's certainly a huge gamble - it will be interesting to see how people take to it.

 

[flynnibus]

To judge by some of the responses from management when asked if it's for everyone, they might not have made up their minds. "We're working on it" was the reply when asked about annual passholders. So who knows. Maybe they'll give annuals a single reservation per day, rather than four like the hotel guests.

If the overall number of reservations for the E-ticket rides drop, then the standby lines will become more tolerable, unless the math is more complex than I'm assuming. That's the bottom line. The FP+ on stuff like Turtle Talk and Idol don't factor into the E-ticket reservations total or the E-ticket standby line, as far as I can see (setting aside the fact that some rubes may "use up" their precious reservations on Idol... but I doubt there are many that silly. In this era of the Internet, everyone is going to know what to use the reservations for).

It's my belief.. and it's only that... that they aren't going to make it just like FPs like you have today.. where you pick from all available options. But more like 'touring plans' - you pick or assemble a package from predetermined lists and the output is more like a touring plan for your day. That's the only way IMO to make fixed time reservations really practical - by taking all your reservations into account and making an overall plan out of it. By doing so, Disney can also steer people to those non-Eticket attractions too. We saw some of this in the testing format they used as well. Basically.. 'pick an itinerary' or 'give us some info, and we'll spit out an itinerary' for you.

If you force the 'package' to be 'two major attractions, 3 mid, and entertainment' you can direct traffic while also limiting how much the reservations are used for the highest demand attractions.

I don't evision any model where someone can just say 'I have 4 tokens, and I want to use all four for Space Mountain'. I think they will use the reservation system to shape and mold the traffic patterns.

 

[GoofGoof]

Well I don't see it as just 'enhance guest experience' but CHANGE. Imagine the change when we went from all bank tellers to having ATMs. It wasn't just convenience - it changed our complete expectation of how banking should be. I think they are shooting for fundamental shifts like that. Not just 'hey, Disney is nicer' but trying to make the other parks seem like dinosaurs in how you visit and do other things.

I mean.. imagine if you will.. if you never had to camp out for fireworks. Don't you think if when you went to another park, and you had to get there 45mins early to get a space. Don't you think someone would go 'man, having to save a spot like this is like the dark ages...' - I think it's that type of shift they are going for. Not just 'better customer service' - but fundamentally shift how people think what a theme park visit should be like.

Are they right? I dunno. Can they pull it off? Dunno. But I see them aiming big. Instead of just trying to be 'better' year over year.. they are looking to change the game period. I think that is how someone justifies such a big spend. Not about 'improvements' - but change the game.

It's certainly a huge gamble - it will be interesting to see how people take to it.

I agree that it has a lot of potential. I am a big time planner myself so I have no issue with planning 6 months out and making reservations ahead. I do like the idea of getting a reserved spot for fireworks, but for that to work it has to be limited which means you either pay for the service or offer it free to deluxe hotel guests or maybe both. If its available to everyone than the population that get it will be too large.

 

[Skibum1970]

My overall perspective on the NextGen development/rollout is that $1.5 billion could go a long way towards adding rides, restoring rides, and improving infrastructure at the various parks. I saw one television show a few years ago where Disney Imagineers discussed what NextGen could mean and how it could go towards crowd control and ensuring that guests get as much for their bang as possible. However, they have, if I may use the term, value engineered so much that it stands to reason that they may end up cutting corners on NextGen and thus limiting its effectiveness.

The current discussions just for TDO are about reducing a potential Cars Land build, reducing Avatar by one e-ticket, and general surmisings about what else is going wrong (maintenance on existing rides). Many corporations will try to fix things by fixing the foundation before trying something new. For Disney, and especially TDO, it seems that they should get the rides built without cutting so much as to reduce them to shadows of what could have been and get the upkeep/maintenance issues ironed out.

 

[SirOinksALot]

To judge by some of the responses from management when asked if it's for everyone, they might not have made up their minds. "We're working on it" was the reply when asked about annual passholders. So who knows. Maybe they'll give annuals a single reservation per day, rather than four like the hotel guests.

How much work does it take to get an RFID card into the hands of every resort guest? None actually, that's already done.

How much work does it take to get an RFID card into the hands of every annual passholder? A lot.

 

[WDW1974]

Hopefully they didn't go back to the Studios well (any details, hints of what that proposal was?)

Yes. And, no, I can't say. Sorry. ... But OLC reacted VERY badly toward the Studios concept in the 90s and I doubt the issues Disney is having with its Studios parks in O-Town and Paris would ever suggest that they were wrong about it.

The idea of OLC building independent, original theme parks, in-country or out, is intriguing. But one also wonders why they'd want to stray from the path that has and continues to bring them so much success (cooperation with Dis). Especially when for the past decade, to my chagrin, OLC has been following TWDC down the Franchise/Princess/Pixar-only path, toonifying and kiddyfing their parks, which is why I'm not crazy about the idea of Carsland replacing several toon-free attractions. And yet, it appears to be successful (Monsters & Toy Story being hit rides).

I can't say beyond the fact that their is plenty of Japanese IP that would most certainly appeal greatly to the folks who enjoy the Disney-branded parks too. ... I can't criticize OLC for buying toon attractions when they are the quality of a Hunny Hunt or a Ride and Go Seek. They are truly E-Ticket toon rides.

I'm not thrilled with the idea of a Cars Land taking the place of the RoA, but if it happens one can be sure it will be done in the absolute best way possible.

I mean ... all you really need to do is look at TSMM in Tokyo and compare it to O-Town.

With TDS attendance soaring I had hoped the next big TDR expansion would be a land-sized area in that park, rather than an oddly-placed Carsland in TDL. Once the TDS is built-out a 3rd Gate on the resort site would require additional land acquisition or fill into the Bay.

Considering the BILLIONS the OLC is spending in the next five years, one would be safe to assume that something quite major will be coming to TDS in the near future as well.

 

[WDW1974]

One quick quote that I really wanted to get in ... something I found on a friend's Facebook, and feel it is quite pertinent to the discussion at hand. Not sure where it really fits except as all encompassing statement that was true in the 1700s and is true today.

"The bitterness of poor quality remains long after the sweetness of low price is forgotten." -Ben Franklin

Disney isn't low priced at all, although it has lulled folks into thinking it is a value by discounting like hell.
Paying $5K for a MAGICal vacation instead of $8K is certainly a good thing, but people still need quality.

''Quality will out.'' -- Walt Disney, not available on any construction wall near you.

 

[WDW1974]

Indeed. My family would often stay at the now demolished Wynfield Inn when I was a child. It was cheap, safe and clean back then. Seems that many big names have left beautiful properties that are now taken over by no name owners. The former Sheraton attached to the Florida Mall, is now called the Florida Hotel, and the Orlando Vista Hotel on Vineland Road that used to be a Double Tree are two that come to mind.

I know the Wynfield Inn well ... I recall staying there for $29 a night sometimes in the early 90s ... recall using those savings to eat at all the great new dining options in the EPCOT resort area like Yachtsman Steakhouse and Ariel's and Cape May Cafe.

And the hotel at the FLA mall, I know that well too. In 1986 for our first family visit to WDW's 15th Anniversary (yeah we were there on 10/1 and no, they didn't keep real guests away from the festivities so that blogging whores could get closeups!) and we stayed at the then just opened Crowne Plaza Florida Mall. At the time, Holiday Inn was just starting the chain as an upscale brand in the USA and I recall my folks being thrilled with it for a AAA rate of $45 a night. I actually walked into it sometime in 2011 and it was dated, but still seemed well-maintained as an independent hotel. ... Memories.

 

[WDW1974]

I lived that era, both online from the alt.disney.disneyland usenet group to fairly regular visits to the decaying park that was Disneyland back then. There were many of us online that were commenting about it, just as there are many caring and concerned folks here doing the same, but Al Lutz was really the ringleader and key figure that got the online commentary crossing over to the traditional media in the late 1990's. What WDW needs is an Al Lutz.

That's what people say and it is true to a degree. But there doesn't seem to be one ... Al took low blows at people (most who deserved it). Today, everyone feels a need to say one good thing if they say a bad one. That's crazy.

The medium has also changed. So many fans have agendas ... they are blogging, they are hosting web sites, they are podcasting, they are part of Disney travel agencies ... they all aren't 'pure' fans (whatever that really means ... I've met very few pure fanbois, but that's 'nother topic!)

Folks are more likely to Tweet or FB about this thread then join in ... it's just a different world.

And I loved ADD, although I never posted on it (that I recall!) ... the way it was unmoderated emotion was great. It was a true flow of ideas.

Like I said, whole new world, Aladdin!

 

[WDW1974]

Heads in beds. This is accurate and entirely the motivation behind the aiming of FP+ at the hotel crowd. Here what we have is one of the few times Universal out-thought Disney. They tried the free reservations for a while, then moved to today's system, where you can buy it OR you can stay at their hotels and get it for free. You can guess the obvious: their hotels are way more full than before.

Disney, with 30,000 hotel rooms, would obviously like them full all the time. They can't mimic Uni's system entirely - that would be too many front of the line passes - but if you were to invent a system that incentivizes hotel stays for that many hotel rooms, it would look EXACTLY like what they're going to do for FP+/MMP. If and only if you are staying at a Disney resort, you get four advance reservations. No one else does. And there are, I'm guessing, not going to be day-of reservations (the old FP) once the system is fully in place. That's an incentive to stay there, right?

You can almost hear their panicked realization late in the game that there are locals and regulars who don't stay at Disney (the locals especially don't want/need to). "Quick! What can we do to make this group happy that loves the parks and sees them all the time but can't ride rides any more?!" Answer: Limited Time Magic! "On the year when we roll out FP+, we'll throw something new into the parks each week! It won't do much for the tourist, but those locals getting shafted will have something to go take pictures of every week!!"

Bread and circuses indeed!

The absolute driver here other than creating a new revenue stream (remember: there are consultants and execs and Disney BoD members who believe that WDW is a mature business with little opportunity for growth hence the move to become a real estate company and hotel operator with theme parks as simply ancillary businesses, almost a necessary evil) is to fill those beds because Disney has struggled pretty much since 2000 to keep those rooms occuupied, let alone with the majority at rack rate which was once commonplace.

There are a lot of things that either haven't been decided or have been kept leak free thus far, but the days of free FPs for anyone and everyone is coming to an end.

Franklin and MacPhee and the NEXT GEN team thinks it is going to reinvent the Disney park-going experience. That is going to be true enough, at least in O-Town, but they're going to break millions of eggs to make relatively few omelettes.

FWIW, I am convinced by some of what I'm hearing that Disney still hasn't fully decided on who will pay what and I am 100% sure their social media team is incapable of dealing with the venom that will be directed toward the company when some of this stuff happens. They thought a dumb, poorly-worded blog post on Starbucks was an issue? Just wait.

 

[WDW1974]

Disney has had more than a decade to get that message out to get ANY customers through their turnstiles. And yet, part of the reason the current FP system works is because only a fraction of park guests understand how to take advantage of it (otherwise all FPs would be sold out minutes after park opening). I'm not saying Disney hasn't communicated how FP works. But it appears they will have to work even harder to communicate that the old system no longer exists and that the new one is worth paying top dollar for. Clearly their low occupancy shows they haven't communicated the value of transportation, EMH, and all the other current perks of on-site hotels. In fact, they've had to discount and offer free dining just to maintain the low occupancy numbers they've got now.

I liked your entire post and really think the above is the best point ... especially what I bolded.
People do NOT all know or understand FP, something Disney started back in 1999 (I was there for early tests on Space and Splash Mountains). There are people who spend ten grand on a WDW vacation and are clueless about it. There's a reason us 'experts' have been gaming the system for years. ... People are dumber by the day and when it comes to vacations at theme parks, many people don't think they're a complicated thing. And one might question should they be? Should folks have to wake up at 6:45 a.m. Eastern time 180 days out using multiple phone lines to get the chance to give Disney their money for dinner at Cindy's or a 'Canadian' steak at Le Cellier etc?

Some researching is common sense, but I also can understand why a non-WDW regular wouldn't think there would be the need to do so. You go, you buy tickets, you enter and you see the place. That is common sense for many folks and I can't call them stupid for it, maybe naive.

 

[WDW1974]

Either Leemac has poor reading comprehension or he is purposefully ignoring some things. If you use the numbers that Al gave, Mater's and Luigi's together have as much capacity as RSR does. Maybe Luigi's wouldn't make the trip, but they could add something else in that spot. It's still not fair to compare all of the RoA attractions to just RSR; you also get the shopping and dining with the rides. Al also said that closing most of the RoA early in the evening versus running Carsland the entire operating day was a factor.

Leemac likes to make himself appear to be more on top of things than he often is (although I'll repeat that his insight is some of the best online) ... but he also has issues with Al and I think that can cloud his opinions ... you are quite right that he is not making a fair comparison.

And since I'm talking to myself, I think I'll bow out for the night and answer some PMs and email.

(I just truly dread what the next week will bring with the drooling whores descending on WDW to tell us all that it has never been better and that Disney is kicking UNI's -- and everyone else's collective arses when the opposite is true. Should be interesting. And, no, I will not be anywhere near WDW this week!)

 

[the.dreamfinder]

Since we're on the topic of germane and insightful wisdoms, ill add this excerpt of an article from the Christian Science Monitor that's in Walt Stanchfield's book "drawn to life" where he writes about artistic complacency and the "trance of non-renewal".
"It is as though the system were asleep under a magic spell. A feature of the trance of non-renewal is that individuals can look straight at a flaw in the system and not see it as a flaw. Although the organization that is gravely in need of renewal may show many signs of its threatened condition, the signs cannot be seen by those under the spell."

 

[sweetpee_1993]

"The bitterness of poor quality remains long after the sweetness of low price is forgotten." -Ben Franklin

Brilliant! We need tshirts!

Paying $5K for a MAGICal vacation instead of $8K is certainly a good thing, but people still need quality.

I'll take door #2: $8k for quality...because spending $5k to be disappointed, frustrated, and feel like I've been taken for a chump does not a happy momma make. And if momma ain't happy, ain't noooobody happy.

 

[sweetpee_1993]

And the hotel at the FLA mall, I know that well too. In 1986 for our first family visit to WDW's 15th Anniversary (yeah we were there on 10/1 and no, they didn't keep real guests away from the festivities so that blogging whores could get closeups!) and we stayed at the then just opened Crowne Plaza Florida Mall. At the time, Holiday Inn was just starting the chain as an upscale brand in the USA and I recall my folks being thrilled with it for a AAA rate of $45 a night. I actually walked into it sometime in 2011 and it was dated, but still seemed well-maintained as an independent hotel. ... Memories.

Memories indeed....like the ongoing jokes we had about the "Florida Mall: Coming this spring!" or some other such sign that was planted at a corner of the wooded plot before ground ever broke that sat there tempting our pre-teen/teen eyes for at least 2 or 3 years. Maybe longer. Felt like an eternity. Every time we'd drive by some smarty-pants in the car would make a crack about how looooong the winter had been..... LOL!

 

[sweetpee_1993]

I liked your entire post and really think the above is the best point ... especially what I bolded.
People do NOT all know or understand FP, something Disney started back in 1999 (I was there for early tests on Space and Splash Mountains). There are people who spend ten grand on a WDW vacation and are clueless about it. There's a reason us 'experts' have been gaming the system for years. ... People are dumber by the day and when it comes to vacations at theme parks, many people don't think they're a complicated thing. And one might question should they be? Should folks have to wake up at 6:45 a.m. Eastern time 180 days out using multiple phone lines to get the chance to give Disney their money for dinner at Cindy's or a 'Canadian' steak at Le Cellier etc?

Some researching is common sense, but I also can understand why a non-WDW regular wouldn't think there would be the need to do so. You go, you buy tickets, you enter and you see the place. That is common sense for many folks and I can't call them stupid for it, maybe naive.

This is a great question: should a visit to WDW take all that work to maximize??? I may have enjoyed the game for a brief time but its the biggest deterrent for me now. Everything I've read about NextGen sounds like a flipping miserable way to vacation. Not only would I not pay extra for that, I'll pay extra to steer clear entirely. Yikes!

 

[Skibum1970]

This is a great question: should a visit to WDW take all that work to maximize??? I may have enjoyed the game for a brief time but its the biggest deterrent for me now. Everything I've read about NextGen sounds like a flipping miserable way to vacation. Not only would I not pay extra for that, I'll pay extra to steer clear entirely. Yikes!

Haven't experienced it yet (obviously) but I actually prefer not having to do a great deal of work, aside from booking the air fare and the rooms, for a vacation. Sounds like a bit of an oxymoron (working vacation). So, when I go currently, I get fast passes to notoriously slow lines (Soarin) and try to go at slow times to get more rides in. People expect lines. I still feel that more rides gives more capacity which leads to lower lines. Put the money into the quality of the rides and the maintenance.

Matt Ouimet went to Cedar Fair and introduced Fast Lane, an add-on to the admittance fee that allows holders to move to the front of the line with no limits. I can appreciate this but also see how it starts a system of "haves" vs "have nots". As a kid, my family was not rich and a trip to Kings Island or Cedar Point was a big deal. In today's dollars, the tickets are $200 total for a family of four (I know that Disney is $$100/day for one) plus $15 parking and then food and drinks. One day becomes $300-$400 quickly. Fast Lane is additional $45 per ticket and suddenly a trip to the park can become $600. I understand why but I'm not sure that it sets the right tone. "Everyone is welcome, especially if they have money" I'm a huge fan of capitalism but this can become a small type of wealth discrimination.

Not sure if what I've said actually makes sense. It's hard to convey in a simple posting.

 

[RSoxNo1]

You also forget up-selling your experience on property by 'oh your son like Pirates. Well we have a $200pp adventure your Son and you can go on!' Or 'ride experiences' oh you want your portrait in the HM, Pooh to wish you Happy Birthday, design a doll for IASW, the fish to spell your party's name in Nemo and Friends - well that's an extra $100 per day per person.

Yet the 'Borgin & Burkes' experience in the WWOHP London sounds amazing. And I'm not being up-sold anything else to have that experience at Universal.

Can someone detail what the Borgin & Burkes experience will be?

 

[GoofGoof]

Haven't experienced it yet (obviously) but I actually prefer not having to do a great deal of work, aside from booking the air fare and the rooms, for a vacation. Sounds like a bit of an oxymoron (working vacation). So, when I go currently, I get fast passes to notoriously slow lines (Soarin) and try to go at slow times to get more rides in. People expect lines. I still feel that more rides gives more capacity which leads to lower lines. Put the money into the quality of the rides and the maintenance.

Matt Ouimet went to Cedar Fair and introduced Fast Lane, an add-on to the admittance fee that allows holders to move to the front of the line with no limits. I can appreciate this but also see how it starts a system of "haves" vs "have nots". As a kid, my family was not rich and a trip to Kings Island or Cedar Point was a big deal. In today's dollars, the tickets are $200 total for a family of four (I know that Disney is $$100/day for one) plus $15 parking and then food and drinks. One day becomes $300-$400 quickly. Fast Lane is additional $45 per ticket and suddenly a trip to the park can become $600. I understand why but I'm not sure that it sets the right tone. "Everyone is welcome, especially if they have money" I'm a huge fan of capitalism but this can become a small type of wealth discrimination.

Not sure if what I've said actually makes sense. It's hard to convey in a simple posting.

I agree with this, but WDW has not been an affordable family vacation since the early 80s. I remember going as a kid around 1986 and my family had to save for several years to afford it. We did stay at CR for a full week so I guess we could have stayed off property and gone for less time, but my point is it was pretty expensive back then and the prices have sky rocketed ever since. The average working class family can't really afford WDW now. Doesn't stop a lot from going. Credit card debt is the American way. Making FP+ an additional cost and/or available only to deluxe resort guests will add to this, but IMHO the WDW as an affordable family vacation ship set sail a long time ago.