No fastpasses available today?

[mergatroid]

That really does seem to be the logical conclusion. The question is, to what degree? Will they not have access to FP+ at all? Will they gets FPs but have to pick from the left-overs of on-site guests?

Not a day goes by when some AP holder doesn't come in here asking about how they are going to be treated. They are nervous. And with good reason. They are probably going to be downgraded to second-class guests to some extent. As it stands during this testing phase, they already are.

We got back to the UK today after 3 weeks in Orlando and have just paid $1500 for 2 premium annual passes. We were not entitled to FP+ for our 3 weeks and have not been guaranteed that by next September when we return for 3 more weeks we will be then (we were told 'hopefully' or 'possibly' by cms). Visiting Guest Relations on our last Disney day on Tuesday we asked how we could go about getting a magic band if they're available to us in advance of our trip next September and how we could book FP+ 60 days before we arrive. We were told that living in the UK migt be problematic in sending out a magic band ('yet unknown') and it would be easier to just visit Guest Relations on the first day of our trip next year to enquire. I pointed out that this would mean we wouldn't be able to reserve FP+ 60 days in advance and was very politely told "We really can't say at this time, maybe you could phone up nearer the time".

The CM was doing their best I'm sure but expecting us to make a long tranatlantic phone call over a complicated issue seems rather strange. I really don't think they've thought this whole thing through too well.

 

[Jeffxz]

Can anyone comment on the accuracy of the posted wait times over the past few weeks? Thinking back, I remember getting in line for things like POTC and HM with posted times of 30-45 minutes, but I'm pretty sure I didn't wait anywhere near that amount of time. I admit that this could be a false memory and was wondering if anyone else noticed something similar.

 

[doctornick]

So, you're saying that these rather intelligent people were too (dumb/ignorant/ill-informed) to use a relatively simple system like fast pass, but yet the masses will magically master the much more complicated FP+ system. I'm not buying it. The same people that couldn't be bothered to figure out FP, will not bother to figure out FP+, which is immensely more complicated.

Depends on how it is run in the future. I foresee a day where Disney will automatically assign resort guests FP+ if they don't book it themselves. Maybe it gets generated a week or a day before check in or something and is determined by dining reservations. If a person doesn't have anything scheduled for a day, it will give FP+ to whatever park appears to be be lightest that day (based on FP+ bookings and dining reservations by other people) to distribute crowds. And so on. This would enable unaware people to be sprinkled with Pixie Dust on check in ("as part of your stay, you have been given free Fastpasses to rides every day of your stay. This enables you access to the front of the lines or reserved viewing for shows for 3 attractions a day.").

This can also work if people buy tickets upon arrival. The CM selling the tickets can offer them to be assigned FP+ for their days on the spot and have the computer assign them. Disney just needs the software to work properly and quickly to make it happen, but I am sure that they want to have this kind of system available at some point.

 

[orky8]

Corporate Disney intends more guests to use FP+, including those that couldn't master FP.

...

But, yes, corporate fully expects more guests to be comfortable using FP+ than they were using FP.

We'll have to see how it plays out, but I'm not buying it. While FP+ plays on items that are "familiar" (reservations, website, apps, etc.), using the system -- and using it well -- requires much more familiarity with the park. I forsee a huge amount of people not making it to their return times -- much more than with FP. Having the wherewithall to plan items 60 days out, and then to change it on the fly, is simply too advanced for most guests on both a technological level and a planning level, in my opinion. Moreover, for many guests, it is an unwanted burden.

 

[mergatroid]

Depends on how it is run in the future. I foresee a day where Disney will automatically assign resort guests FP+ if they don't book it themselves. Maybe it gets generated a week or a day before check in or something and is determined by dining reservations. If a person doesn't have anything scheduled for a day, it will give FP+ to whatever park appears to be be lightest that day (based on FP+ bookings and dining reservations by other people) to distribute crowds. And so on. This would enable unaware people to be sprinkled with Pixie Dust on check in ("as part of your stay, you have been given free Fastpasses to rides every day of your stay. This enables you access to the front of the lines or reserved viewing for shows for 3 attractions a day.").

This can also work if people buy tickets upon arrival. The CM selling the tickets can offer them to be assigned FP+ for their days on the spot and have the computer assign them. Disney just needs the software to work properly and quickly to make it happen, but I am sure that they want to have this kind of system available at some point.

Not having a go at you and they may possibly do that, but I think it would really make things worse for many. A number of guests who are staying for a few days either have rest days (or periods of the day) or shock horror, visit Universal, Sea World or shop outside WDW etc. Fot those guests on those days their FP's would go unused and yet be issued causing even less FP's for others. This would possibly mean longer standby lines as those unable to get FP's due to there being less would possibly have no option other than join lines in standby queues? As I say please don't take this as a personal attack, I just think it could make things worse but I could be wrong?

 

[doctornick]

Not having a go at you and they may possibly do that, but I think it would really make things worse for many. A number of guests who are staying for a few days either have rest days (or periods of the day) or shock horror, visit Universal, Sea World or shop outside WDW etc. Fot those guests on those days their FP's would go unused and yet be issued causing even less FP's for others. This would possibly mean longer standby lines as those unable to get FP's due to there being less would possibly have no option other than join lines in standby queues? As I say please don't take this as a personal attack, I just think it could make things worse but I could be wrong?

1. I think a major point of this would be to encourage guests who are planning to go to Uni/Sea World or have a rest day to spend that day at a Disney Park instead. Disney would want them to feel like "we already have these FP for a ride and it's only $10 to add another day to our Disney tickets, let's just go to Magic Kingdom again".
2. While yes, it would limit the FP+ available to others, I'm guessing people would be assigned lesser demand attractions mostly. Furthermore, if FP+ go unused, that means that standby will move (a little) faster for that ride. As long as all guests can still book their 3 FP+ for the day, the "downside" is people not getting their top choices, not that guests won't be able to use FP+

 

[doctornick]

We'll have to see how it plays out, but I'm not buying it. While FP+ plays on items that are "familiar" (reservations, website, apps, etc.), using the system -- and using it well -- requires much more familiarity with the park. I forsee a huge amount of people not making it to their return times -- much more than with FP. Having the wherewithall to plan items 60 days out, and then to change it on the fly, is simply too advanced for most guests on both a technological level and a planning level, in my opinion. Moreover, for many guests, it is an unwanted burden.

There's no need to schedule 60 days in advance or change it on the fly to use FP+. Even ignoring my suggesting of randomly assigning people FP+, an alternative could be to have CMs in the lobby of resorts who help people upon check in to assign FP+ for their trip.

If anything, I think Disney does not want people to change their FP+ times. They want most people to view it as a reservation they have to keep, so that it motivates them to be in the parks.

 

[71jason]

Corporate Disney intends more guests to use FP+, including those that couldn't master FP.

The fact that PotC and Mansion are included in FP+ is all the proof I need that Disney intends "non-expert" guests to use it more than FP, which never caught on to the extent expected.

 

[mergatroid]

1. I think a major point of this would be to encourage guests who are planning to go to Uni/Sea World or have a rest day to spend that day at a Disney Park instead. Disney would want them to feel like "we already have these FP for a ride and it's only $10 to add another day to our Disney tickets, let's just go to Magic Kingdom again".
2. While yes, it would limit the FP+ available to others, I'm guessing people would be assigned lesser demand attractions mostly. Furthermore, if FP+ go unused, that means that standby will move (a little) faster for that ride. As long as all guests can still book their 3 FP+ for the day, the "downside" is people not getting their top choices, not that guests won't be able to use FP+

I can see this being a great idea for Disney, just not such a great idea for a number of guests. I'm sure they'll try things like this though as they now have the tech to do it so I suppose the proof will be in the pudding. Mind you, some would love it and some would hate it so I suppose the success would be down to how it affected individuals and therefore subjective.

 

[Furiated]

The system doesn't allow you to overlap any of the three FP+ times when you book them. But once you use your first one, you can go onto your phone app or to a kiosk in the park and try to move up the time of your next FP+ to an earlier time. Once a FP+ is used, it doesn't care about anything overlapping it anymore. And then after you're done with your second FP+ you could try moving up the third one.

An interesting aside, if you have one of the FP+ CMs do it for you on their iPad, they CAN make them overlap. I had a CM do that for me when I was at DHS changing my reservations over to EPCOT, and because it was so late in the day, she put Soarin and Test Track in the same return window so that I would be done in time for Illuminations. Worked fine when I went to enter both rides.

 

[orky8]

There's no need to schedule 60 days in advance or change it on the fly to use FP+. Even ignoring my suggesting of randomly assigning people FP+, an alternative could be to have CMs in the lobby of resorts who help people upon check in to assign FP+ for their trip.

If anything, I think Disney does not want people to change their FP+ times. They want most people to view it as a reservation they have to keep, so that it motivates them to be in the parks.

The system is not fully live yet, but if Disney sticks with its intention of giving the full public access, then reservations for rides will be as difficult to come by as reservations for restarurants. All that will remain outside the 60 day window are less desirable rides (well, I should say rides that wouldn't typically have a wait). I agree with you Disney expects people to keep these reservations, but my opinion is that people are not going to be able to accurately predict their mood 60 days out and FP+s, like FPs, are going to go wasted just the same.

Likewise, your idea of giving everyone 3 FP+ even if they fail to book any is only going to articifically inflate the wait times. While I understand this is Disney's intention -- to spread our the crowds -- it is a fool hearty. You can't give people things they don't want by taking away choices they used to have and then expect them to thank you for it. Rides and wait times are pure economics of supply and demand. Wait times go up until supply availability (wait time to ride) equals demand (time willing to wait). Each person votes on the margin by getting in line or not. Splash Mountain doesn't have a 60 minute wait time because it is superior to Pirates, it has a 60 minute wait time because people are willing to wait that long for the ride. You can't artificially inflate a standby line beyond a guests tolerance for what the wait is worth without severly affecting guest satisfaction. And, unless the parks aren't busy, those the wait times are already at their natural equilibrium point.

FP+ and MyMagic+ is a giant experiment in central planning versus free market, with the end goal of finding which system can placate the masses long enough while the execs extract as much value as they can. Central planning is going to fail because the planners lack a fundamental understanding of what draws people to their parks (although they have done an exceedingly good job of playing up the pixie dust and nostalgic angles). You're suggestions that Disney should keep trying to "help" the low information consumer assumes they somehow know how the "help." Putting aside the fact that Corporate Disney doesn't have any desire to help unless there is a tangible financial benefit, to play off the immortal words of the Gipper, the most terrifying words are "I'm here from Disney and I'm here to help."

 

[Goofyernmost]

The fact that PotC and Mansion are included in FP+ is all the proof I need that Disney intends "non-expert" guests to use it more than FP, which never caught on to the extent expected.

FP never caught on to the extent expected? I don't understand what you mean. I'm thinking that the attractions haven't changed at all as far as popularity is concerned. They ran out of FP's ever day for the ones worth getting them for. How much more successful can it have been.

What I do see is a point when every ride will be reserved. No one will ride without an issued time to be go on it. I think that is what they had wanted from the beginning. Just one line, with fewer people in it controlled by computer to determine how many ride and when. Since they can't even figure out how to link your reservations to your account yet, I guess we don't have to worry about that for a long time.

 

[ParentsOf4]

We'll have to see how it plays out, but I'm not buying it. While FP+ plays on items that are "familiar" (reservations, website, apps, etc.), using the system -- and using it well -- requires much more familiarity with the park. I forsee a huge amount of people not making it to their return times -- much more than with FP. Having the wherewithall to plan items 60 days out, and then to change it on the fly, is simply too advanced for most guests on both a technological level and a planning level, in my opinion. Moreover, for many guests, it is an unwanted burden.

Making informed FP+ selections requires familiarity with the parks. Simply using the My Disney Experience (MDE) website doesn't.

MDE offers a quick-pick option. A few have reported that the quick-pick option (so far) tends to pick the attractions most would want. For example, TSM over LMA; Soarin' over Maelstrom. The quick-pick option also seems to space picks out, giving guests time to travel between attractions. Giving guests time to shop.

For those unfamiliar with WDW, the quick-pick option will act as a pseudo tour guide, adding structure into what otherwise would be an unstructured day.

Corporate Disney doesn't want you to have an unstructured day. They want your entire day to be planned, specifically planned at WDW.

An unplanned day means you might actually (wait for it) visit someone else's theme park.

Quoting Disney CEO Bob Iger:

"We have for years had in place products that are available only to hotel guests. And actually, one thing that I think Jay alluded to, didn't say specifically, is the My Magic Plus will definitely encourage people to stay more on-property than off-property. Jay was talking about essentially by being able to plan ahead, people will basically have more plans with us, and that will in effect discourage them from doing other things. I think it will also encourage them to stay more in our hotels. And so I think you have to look at that as an additional value to My Magic Plus."

That's what Disney wants.

In a perfect word, Disney would love to tell everyone exactly what they should ride. That's not nefarious; that level of control would simply assure load-balancing of all their attractions. Since Disney cannot realistically achieve that, they want to target their high-value guests (think Deluxe Resorts) in order to get those with the deepest pockets to open those pockets. Again, nothing nefarious. That's just what private businesses are supposed to do. Get their customers to buy more and, when resources are limited, get their best customers to spend the most.

There have been plenty of reports of incredibly long FP+ lines for some of WDW's most popular, low capacity attractions. Guests are getting FP+ for TSM and actually using it.

Right now, it looks like too many are getting FP+ for some attractions and Disney will have to correct that if it doesn't want a bunch of high-value guests upset that they spent 45 minutes in what was supposed to be the fast line.

 

[RSoxNo1]

Are you allergic to standby?

You know full well the answer to this. People have expectations of how long they're willing to wait for something. As the wait time increases the # of people willing to wait that long decreases. Fastpass was a way around this and now that option is being manipulated in favor of something that by all accounts is less friendly to the masses.

 

[RSoxNo1]

FP+ doesn't create people in front of you... it only shifts how people get FPs. FP+ doesn't create more people. If all of a sudden there are 500 more people in SSE's line causing your increased wait... those 500 people can't be somewhere else at the same time. And those 500 people can't be in front of other people more than 3 times in the day... so how are more people in front of you at every attraction all the time?

I get that people don't like as many FPs being available.. but FP+ doesn't create more people.

Yes, Fastpass+ does not create more people.

And given FPs ran out all the time, and were so popular before.. I have a hard time believing FP+ has all of sudden made everyone redeem so many more FP reservations than before to cause these outrageous lines you and other are complaining about.

In order for someone to get a Fastpass for Test Track, Soarin' and Mission: Space prior to Fastpass+ it would take at absolute minimum 2 hours, but more likely 4 hours and 40 minutes. This meant that if you were there at rope drop you would have to go until 11 AM at minimum, or 1:04 AM at maximum to get/ride all 4. Now all of this can be done prior to arrival. It absolutely accelerates Fastpass distribution to a point where far more attractions have turned into Radiator Springs Racers at DCA or Toy Story Mania at Hollywood Studios.

If you don't schedule your day at Epcot in advance it is now much tougher to experience the marquee attractions. If Disney wants that to be the new normal, they need to anticipate upset guests.

Or maybe you're coming across as a petty with 'My trip was ruined... I had to get in a standby line!!!'

Your blindness towards the technology aspect of NextGen has jaded your opinion of how that technology is being used. Last year, you could go to Epcot on a one day pass for $90+, stay offsite and have a solid experience utilizing the current Fastpass system. The way this is evolving, the cost of your hotel room should now be factored in to the cost of admission because it seems like staying on site is going to be required to get something similar to the same access that was available to everyone a year ago.

The #1 complaint of guests visiting Disney World or any theme park is waiting in line. Disney's Fastpass system was a competitive advantage. I have yet to see proof that Fastpass+ is anything but a giant step backwards and an elimination of this competitive advantage. The motivation behind it is to deceive guests.

 

[awoogala]

I think of it this way: I like Peter Pan. I don't think it's worth a 40 minute+ wait. fp=fine, Last trip we did not even ride Peter Pan. A week in Disney and no Peter Pan? yup. If this starts happening with too many rides, where the reward is less than the wait.
They (Disney) need to find that sweet spot.
I know I had read that at one point, they had determined 8 rides was the minimum- less than that, and people were upset. I am assuming fp+ is trying to find the spot where people feel they are getting "enough".
Everyone has rides they like, but don't LOVE enough to spend 40, 50, 60, etc. minutes at. Disney needs to keep them all happy.

 

[RSoxNo1]

Yes, I've mentioned that... I just find it hard to believe the take-up rate is so different and that the cummulative effect can be so dramatic.

Remeber.. those that DID use FP would have been using similar amounts or MORE than 3. Now people are being limited to three.. and people are still limited by how many FP/+ the company makes available. So while there may be more people taking a FP reservation... there is also offset of people being capped.

I'm not convinced this is true. They had to increase Fastpass capacity by adding it on to other attraction that didn't need it in order to facilitate the "3 per guest" quota. At Epcot, for example I'm guessing the average guests would use 2 or less Fastpasses per day. For Hollywood Studios and Animal Kingdom, it is probably 2 or 3 per day for the most aggressive user, while at MK the number is probably higher. I wouldn't be surprised if @lentesta has more solid estimates.

To make this play out.. you'd have something like this
Group 1 - knows what they are doing.. they use FP+ on marquee stuff
Group 2 - is semi-aware... they use FP+ on marquee where they can, and maybe get pushed to lesser attractions for some of their FP+s
Group 3 - is unaware... and is willing to allocate and USE FP+ on all the lesser attractions

Group 3 needs to be huge to make the impact so large around the park and not just isolated to the marquee attractions. Now, I know the amount of ignorant people is high... but are they actually cashing in all those FP+ as well?

Remember, it's not just FP+ allocation.. but it actually takes someone redeeming it to impact a line. If the smart people are using their FP+ on the main attractions... who are all these people bloating the JII line.. etc? Do we believe there are people redeeming all of their FP+s on the junk attractions?

I'm sure it happens.. but happens enough to boost the lines to the degree people are complaining about here? High capacity rides sustaining 30+ min waits during a 'low season'??

That's why I don't think you can attest this all to one factor (arrival of advance reservation) - there has to be some serious tinkering with how many are allocated, crowds, and maybe even ride capacity to make this perfect storm IMO. It's only observation at this point.. but I think the real answer is multifaceted.

You touched upon the education aspect that is going to plague Group 3 under Fastpass+, just like it did under Fastpass. There will be people that just assume this is a pay service, or are otherwise ignorant of it. Disney's option here is to try and sell these people on the advantage of Fastpass+, and then sell them on reservations like Living with the Land, Spaceship Earth and The Seas with Nemo and Friends.

 

[ChrisFL]

I can't wait for Disney's next T-shirts that say "Where do YOU fit in the Disney Caste system?"

 

[danv3]

And I really think offsite guests are going to get hung out to dry.

They have to for for this nonsense to have any hope of making economic sense.

 

[RSoxNo1]

And I really think offsite guests are going to get hung out to dry.

The goal here is to replace knowledge with money. The uninformed were not getting the same advantages to the Fastpass system, despite still having access to it. What Disney is trying to do now is to help out those uninformed people with Fastpass+ at the cost of people that are trying to vacation at Disney World "on the cheap".