No fastpasses available today?

[tissandtully]

FP was introduced in 1999. I've been going to WDW since the 1970s. I know WDW like the back of my hand. I knew there was this thing called FP.

I didn't start using FP until around 2003. Was it really free? Disney doesn't give "free" anything. What's the catch?

I'm standing in front of the attraction right now. Why should I have to come back later?

FP didn't fit neatly into any of my previous experiences of what a theme park was like.

There was something that just didn't seem right about FP.

Just saying ...

So you'd rather wait 110 min standby for Soarin' still?

 

[ParentsOf4]

So you'd rather wait 110 min standby for Soarin' still?

I started using FP only 2 or 3 trips after it was introduced so, yes, back around the time when FP was first introduced in 1999, I waited in the Standby line for Peter Pan rather than use FP.

And lots of others did exactly the same thing. It was common in FP's early days to get a return time that was actually sooner than the time posted on the Standby line. FP did not (and still doesn't) fit neatly into people's theme park expectations.

Soarin' didn't open until 2005. By then, I was a FP expert.

Back in the old days before FP/FP+, most lines rarely exceeded 45 minutes except for holidays.

Except for when Tower Of Terror first opened in 1994, I've never waited for more than 45 minutes for any attraction at WDW.

FP/FP+ completely screws up lines. WDW would be much better without it.

 

[lebeau]

FP was introduced in 1999. I've been going to WDW since the 1970s. I know WDW like the back of my hand. I knew there was this thing called FP.

I didn't start using FP until around 2003. Was it really free? Disney doesn't give "free" anything. What's the catch?

I'm standing in front of the attraction right now. Why should I have to come back later?

FP didn't fit neatly into any of my previous experiences of what a theme park was like.

There was something that just didn't seem right about FP.

Just saying ...

This is common among people I have spoken with.

On that 2003 trip, we didn't use FP the first few days of the trip. The place was empty and everything was a walk-on. Oh, those were the days! Back when we had a true slow season. After we had seen and done everything we wanted to do, we tried out FP mostly out of curiosity. We didn't really need it, but we figured out how it worked.

When I got back and I told my brother (who had been twice a year on average for the last 10 years) he asked a lot of questions about FP. People who weren't in the know approached it with great apprehension. Any time I coach a first timer, I make sure to school them on FP first thing. Most don't know about it or weren't planning to mess around with something that intimidated them.

 

[muteki]

Exactly.

I have two siblings who used to go to WDW at least once a year for cheerleading events. My brother was a judge and went a couple times a year for many years. Neither one of them ever used FP despite having spent several days in the parks. They thought it cost extra. My sister was very angry about Disney letting people pay to cut in line.

I know. D'uh. How stupid of them. Well, there were a lot of people out there who never got the FP message. Even if they did, they didn't understand how to use it effectively or thought it was a bother. A lot of FPs went to waste. But a lot of guests weren't even getting them to begin with.

With FP+, the usage has to be way up. Guests have them pre-scheduled. They know about them and by golly they are going to use them. Especially since the stand by lines are so long everywhere else.

And the scary thing is...what if to balance out the FP+ usage to historical levels the allotment of FP+ per day actually has to drop? If those of us that were used to having 5,6+ a day that were so put off by 3 a day, actually might have to get used to 2 or 1?

It's silly really but the parks don't have enough capacity to support a FP system that everybody uses, and has only managed so far because not many people were using it.

 

[lebeau]

And the scary thing is...what if to balance out the FP+ usage to historical levels the allotment of FP+ per day actually has to drop? If those of us that were used to having 5,6+ a day that were so put off by 3 a day, actually might have to get used to 2 or 1?

It's silly really but the parks don't have enough capacity to support a FP system that everybody uses, and has only managed so far because not many people were using it.

Exactly.

I can think of a few things Disney might do to tweak FP+. I don't think any of them are going to be popular with people who frequent these boards.

The only real solution is to build more attractions and build up capacity until it meets demand. This is the option Disney is least likely to take.

On the upside, the people who are being mocked as "too stupid" to use the old FP are going to benefit from a system they will actually use.

 

[flynnibus]

Perhaps if everyone has 3 FP+, that usage is higher than when anyone could get however many FP they wanted but many people didn't know/get as many/use it efficiently.

Yes, I've mentioned that... I just find it hard to believe the take-up rate is so different and that the cummulative effect can be so dramatic.

Remeber.. those that DID use FP would have been using similar amounts or MORE than 3. Now people are being limited to three.. and people are still limited by how many FP/+ the company makes available. So while there may be more people taking a FP reservation... there is also offset of people being capped.

To make this play out.. you'd have something like this
Group 1 - knows what they are doing.. they use FP+ on marquee stuff
Group 2 - is semi-aware... they use FP+ on marquee where they can, and maybe get pushed to lesser attractions for some of their FP+s
Group 3 - is unaware... and is willing to allocate and USE FP+ on all the lesser attractions

Group 3 needs to be huge to make the impact so large around the park and not just isolated to the marquee attractions. Now, I know the amount of ignorant people is high... but are they actually cashing in all those FP+ as well?

Remember, it's not just FP+ allocation.. but it actually takes someone redeeming it to impact a line. If the smart people are using their FP+ on the main attractions... who are all these people bloating the JII line.. etc? Do we believe there are people redeeming all of their FP+s on the junk attractions?

I'm sure it happens.. but happens enough to boost the lines to the degree people are complaining about here? High capacity rides sustaining 30+ min waits during a 'low season'??

That's why I don't think you can attest this all to one factor (arrival of advance reservation) - there has to be some serious tinkering with how many are allocated, crowds, and maybe even ride capacity to make this perfect storm IMO. It's only observation at this point.. but I think the real answer is multifaceted.

 

[NowInc]

I also think its really not viable to compare lines from the 80s-90s to lines we have today...as attendance between the 2 eras are not identical. If there are twice as many guests now as there were then, how is it fair to say that fastpass is the cause of longer lines? More people = longer lines.

 

[Hollywood Magic]

The fastpass card is common and has been around a long while. If a guest's ticket isn't working at the fastpass machine, we give them this card that they use. It is not good for park admission and is NOT an automatic fastpass.
It works exactly like your park ticket at fastpass, allowing you one fastpass every certain amount of time. It is good for only that day and only that park.
We gladly help at fastpass AND fastpass plus, but for the most part when it comes to fixing it, we can't do anything because we do not have the proper equipment, such as a computer to look up your reservation
So PLEASE don't say that we don't care and that we won't help at all because we gladly will.

 

[muteki]

I also think its really not viable to compare lines from the 80s-90s to lines we have today...as attendance between the 2 eras are not identical. If there are twice as many guests now as there were then, how is it fair to say that fastpass is the cause of longer lines? More people = longer lines.

More people in general is the problem. Same will be true 5-10 years from now. Attendance at WDW will always go up. People keep having babies.

FP was created in part to address this...to make it such that guests can hit that ~10 attractions/day satisfaction level.
FP+ is the 2013 version of the above, attempting to deal with even more people.

These are workarounds, band-aids...the only thing that really solves the problem is more capacity. Which they will add...over time...at a minimum.

 

[orky8]

Exactly.

I have two siblings who used to go to WDW at least once a year for cheerleading events. My brother was a judge and went a couple times a year for many years. Neither one of them ever used FP despite having spent several days in the parks. They thought it cost extra. My sister was very angry about Disney letting people pay to cut in line.

I know. D'uh. How stupid of them. Well, there were a lot of people out there who never got the FP message. Even if they did, they didn't understand how to use it effectively or thought it was a bother. A lot of FPs went to waste. But a lot of guests weren't even getting them to begin with.

With FP+, the usage has to be way up. Guests have them pre-scheduled. They know about them and by golly they are going to use them. Especially since the stand by lines are so long everywhere else.

So, you're saying that these rather intelligent people were too (dumb/ignorant/ill-informed) to use a relatively simple system like fast pass, but yet the masses will magically master the much more complicated FP+ system. I'm not buying it. The same people that couldn't be bothered to figure out FP, will not bother to figure out FP+, which is immensely more complicated.

FP/FP+ has nothing to do with overall wait time -- just distribution. Lines throughout the park cannot all increase unless (a) more people are in the park or (b) there are fewer rides. Both of those appear to be happening. This is a capacity problem, plain and simple. FP+ is a stop-gap measure (actually, it was the entire solution, but even TDO is starting to realize it was stupid solution), by giving people quick access to three rides per day, maybe people wouldn't realize that waits are up park-wide because there are no new attractions, but the boy who lived is getting more people to visit Orlando.

 

[ford91exploder]

The fastpass card is common and has been around a long while. If a guest's ticket isn't working at the fastpass machine, we give them this card that they use. It is not good for park admission and is NOT an automatic fastpass.
It works exactly like your park ticket at fastpass, allowing you one fastpass every certain amount of time. It is good for only that day and only that park.
We gladly help at fastpass AND fastpass plus, but for the most part when it comes to fixing it, we can't do anything because we do not have the proper equipment, such as a computer to look up your reservation
So PLEASE don't say that we don't care and that we won't help at all because we gladly will.

What I was saying is that Operations is not allowing you to help, and more importantly not giving you the front line CM's the TOOL's to help the guest. There are only so many GR locations and GR CM's

 

[ford91exploder]

Yes, I've mentioned that... I just find it hard to believe the take-up rate is so different and that the cummulative effect can be so dramatic.

Remeber.. those that DID use FP would have been using similar amounts or MORE than 3. Now people are being limited to three.. and people are still limited by how many FP/+ the company makes available. So while there may be more people taking a FP reservation... there is also offset of people being capped.

To make this play out.. you'd have something like this
Group 1 - knows what they are doing.. they use FP+ on marquee stuff
Group 2 - is semi-aware... they use FP+ on marquee where they can, and maybe get pushed to lesser attractions for some of their FP+s
Group 3 - is unaware... and is willing to allocate and USE FP+ on all the lesser attractions

Group 3 needs to be huge to make the impact so large around the park and not just isolated to the marquee attractions. Now, I know the amount of ignorant people is high... but are they actually cashing in all those FP+ as well?

Remember, it's not just FP+ allocation.. but it actually takes someone redeeming it to impact a line. If the smart people are using their FP+ on the main attractions... who are all these people bloating the JII line.. etc? Do we believe there are people redeeming all of their FP+s on the junk attractions?

I'm sure it happens.. but happens enough to boost the lines to the degree people are complaining about here? High capacity rides sustaining 30+ min waits during a 'low season'??

That's why I don't think you can attest this all to one factor (arrival of advance reservation) - there has to be some serious tinkering with how many are allocated, crowds, and maybe even ride capacity to make this perfect storm IMO. It's only observation at this point.. but I think the real answer is multifaceted.

@flynnibus I agree with all your points, There is an X factor at work here while there are probably more people in park now because of the unusually good weather, I don't believe crowds are at the level to cause NYE waits. If crowds are at NYE levels and we extrapolate crowds linearly the waits for Christmas and NYE on a scale of one to ten will be about a 25.

We collectively are missing something here and only more data will fix this for us.

 

[ford91exploder]

I also think its really not viable to compare lines from the 80s-90s to lines we have today...as attendance between the 2 eras are not identical. If there are twice as many guests now as there were then, how is it fair to say that fastpass is the cause of longer lines? More people = longer lines.

When comparing lines 2011/2 is as far back as is reasonable to use as comparison.

 

[lebeau]

So, you're saying that these rather intelligent people were too (dumb/ignorant/ill-informed) to use a relatively simple system like fast pass, but yet the masses will magically master the much more complicated FP+ system. I'm not buying it. The same people that couldn't be bothered to figure out FP, will not bother to figure out FP+, which is immensely more complicated.

I haven't used FP+ yet myself. But I'm assisting someone who is testing it in Dec. My experience helping her plan is that it walks you through setting up reservations. If you don't know what to pick, it makes suggestions. For guests staying on site, FP+ seems easier and less intimidating than the old system. Plus there's no need to do all that backtracking.

How it will work for guests staying off site if it is even available to them, I dunno. But based on what I have experienced so far and heard from people who have been in Oct, seems like usage is up.

FP/FP+ has nothing to do with overall wait time -- just distribution. Lines throughout the park cannot all increase unless (a) more people are in the park or (b) there are fewer rides. Both of those appear to be happening. This is a capacity problem, plain and simple. FP+ is a stop-gap measure (actually, it was the entire solution, but even TDO is starting to realize it was stupid solution), by giving people quick access to three rides per day, maybe people wouldn't realize that waits are up park-wide because there are no new attractions, but the boy who lived is getting more people to visit Orlando.

I agree with your second paragraph.

 

[ford91exploder]

...and theirs is just as legitimate a way to experience WDW as anyone else's. WDW is still a great place to "go with the flow" and have a marvelous time, so long as you don't have a lot of specific goals in mind.

If you want to "do all the attractions," however, you've got to go commando-style these days, keeping your 180 day and 60 day windows in full view -- WDW is making it harder and harder to leave anything up to chance. Your "magic" has got to be booked, paid for, planned, fussed over, confirmed, downloaded, uploaded, scanned and carved in stone 60 days out. As your friends wisely recognized, true "magic" is more often discovered by accident than booked ahead of time...

Agree, Found more things by wandering around and just drinking in the details, Occasionally use FP but not frequently which is why the 60 days in advance bugs me, When we go on trips we dont even decide which parks we are going to until day of. And now with all attractions having 20-30 minutes wait at minimum. it becomes why do I want to wait better part of hour if i'm not even sure I want to ride??? with a walk on it's a no brainer.

 

[ParentsOf4]

I also think its really not viable to compare lines from the 80s-90s to lines we have today...as attendance between the 2 eras are not identical. If there are twice as many guests now as there were then, how is it fair to say that fastpass is the cause of longer lines? More people = longer lines.

Attendance is up modestly but I don't think that is what's been driving the longer lines over the last few years.

Disney stopped publishing official attendance numbers in 1985. Up till then, the Magic Kingdom averaged between 13-to-14 million guests. TEA estimates that the Magic Kingdom's current attendance is around 17.5 million but I have information indicating that number is inflated appreciably. The Magic Kingdom is the most attended theme park in the world but it also was the most attended theme park in the 1970s, 1980s, and 1990s.

I do think WDW attendance is up but that's mostly because there is very little slow season anymore, not because summers or holidays are appreciably more crowded. In the 70s-90s, it was amazing to be at WDW in September and walk on everything. That usually happened as well in October through December (excluding holidays), January, and May. Attendance is up, but it's mostly up in what once was the slow season.

Before the advent of FP, hour-plus lines at WDW were unusual except for peak holidays. It's not because attendance is somehow significantly higher than it is today. It's mostly because of FP.

FP+ is exactly that; FastPass plus.

WDW doesn't need FP and it certainly doesn't need even more FP. 3 of WDW's 4 theme parks need more attractions with widespread appeal.

Lines are long on popular attractions at Epcot, DHS, and DAK because, frankly, those parks don't have enough attractions that are worth waiting in line for.

 

[mergatroid]

FP+ doesn't create people in front of you... it only shifts how people get FPs. FP+ doesn't create more people. If all of a sudden there are 500 more people in SSE's line causing your increased wait... those 500 people can't be somewhere else at the same time. And those 500 people can't be in front of other people more than 3 times in the day... so how are more people in front of you at every attraction all the time?

I get that people don't like as many FPs being available.. but FP+ doesn't create more people.

Whilst this is true it may also be ignoring certain points which in my opinion are affecting lines. For instance adding FP+ lines to attractions that didn't have FP lines before means several rides which used to be 'walk ons' now have longer queues. Also it's rather different offering just fastpasses on the day (the old way) than actively promoting the chance to book 60 days in advance when making reservations (the new way if staying on site). Originally only those in the parks would have the chance to be obtain a fastpass whereasnow people in advance are encouraged to get earlier time fastpasses so probably turn up earlier than normal to use them.

My example was a few weeks back where at 9:10am Test Track was issuing Fastpass returns for 4:45-5:45pm that day! I really fail to believe judging by the numbers in the park then (we had been waiting for opening since 8:30am) that had FP+ not have been issuing tickets in advance that this would have been the case? That same day Journey (which I don't remember having a FP queue before which now has a FP+ queue?) had a stand by queue of around 30 mins at 11am, something I'd not seen before at that attraction which I think was connected to the new FP+ line added?

I'm hoping when FP+ is available to everyone it will be better than the trip we've just had though. I fail to believe that a lot of pre planning isn't going to be needed 60 days in advance of each day (21 days in our case) to put us on a level playing field with many others though, that is if our premium annual passes entitle us to FP+ next September when we return?

 

[ParentsOf4]

The same people that couldn't be bothered to figure out FP, will not bother to figure out FP+, which is immensely more complicated.

Corporate Disney intends more guests to use FP+, including those that couldn't master FP.

The goal of FP+ is to let (especially Deluxe Resort) guests figure out what they want to ride before they arrive. It's to get them to preplan their vacations, to commit to visiting WDW every day of their trips before they arrive so they stay onsite, to treat FP+ like an ADR, which guests do seem to be able to figure out.

FP+ is an appointment, not much different than getting a reservation at a restaurant or an appointment with a doctor, auto shop, or cable guy. Folks understand those and plan their days around them. That's exactly what corporate wants the public to do with FP+.

Will those guests be able to handle FP+ intricacies like changing their selections? Dunno.

But, yes, corporate fully expects more guests to be comfortable using FP+ than they were using FP.

Based on the lines we've been reading about over the last few weeks during which FP+ went live at all Disney resorts, it does seem the public is quickly growing accustomed to FP+.

Now, Disney has to figure out how to alter their distribution algorithms to eliminate some of the bottlenecks FP+ seems to have created.

And I really think offsite guests are going to get hung out to dry.

 

[mergatroid]

Hasn't Maelstrom had FP for years?

And I could forgive them putting FP+ on Imagination if they were "future-proofing" the attraction for its (hopefully imminent) overhaul and simply wanted to get the infrastructure installed now while they were doing all the others.

-Rob

I'm not sure on those two things Rob? Hopefully you're right and it will work out to be in peoples benefit in the future.

 

[lebeau]

And I really think offsite guests are going to get hung out to dry.

That really does seem to be the logical conclusion. The question is, to what degree? Will they not have access to FP+ at all? Will they gets FPs but have to pick from the left-overs of on-site guests?

Not a day goes by when some AP holder doesn't come in here asking about how they are going to be treated. They are nervous. And with good reason. They are probably going to be downgraded to second-class guests to some extent. As it stands during this testing phase, they already are.