NextGen / FP+ / Magic Band. The official truth starts to appear

[bgraham34]

Ok - but they still aren't powered.. which is what you said.

Thats correct, my bad.

 

[bgraham34]

If they're powered I'm curious as to how they'll be charged.

They are not rechargeable.

 

[MattM]

I keep seeing civil liberties mentioned here. What civil liberties are being forcefully taken from anyone from these bands?

 

[Sneezy62]

So what is the 2.4 gig radio for if it's not RFID? Does it broadcast an identifier? What's the difference between RFID and a radio beacon that transmits an identifier? I'm not being dismissive just confused. I know RFID is contained on a single chip, is the radio not?

 

[Monty]

I keep seeing civil liberties mentioned here. What civil liberties are being forcefully taken from anyone from these bands?

None, but paranoids gonna paranoi... LOL

 

[GrumpyFan]

If they're powered I'm curious as to how they'll be charged.

Small internal, battery powered. The radios/receivers themselves are low power and will likely work for several years. They're designed to be disposable.
Think of it like a car remote. It will probably last as long, if not longer than the average car remote.

 

[flynnibus]

So what is the 2.4 gig radio for if it's not RFID? Does it broadcast an identifier? What's the difference between RFID and a radio beacon that transmits an identifier? I'm not being dismissive just confused. I know RFID is contained on a single chip, is the radio not?

They are likely both a form of identifier - just different means of doing it and capabilities. The difference is more in terminology and limits for each. Kind of like a car and a truck.. both are vehicles, but they have different capabilities and constraints.

Its my theory the radio is a beacon advertising a ID so that they can passively find band holders over larger areas.. where the RFID tags will be used more for 'direct interaction' things.. or maybe tracking in very focused areas.

The RFID tags need to be irradiated to be detected.. the radios in theory would not.

 

[ParentsOf4]

I keep seeing civil liberties mentioned here. What civil liberties are being forcefully taken from anyone from these bands?

The U.S. Supreme Court unanimously ruled in 2012 that use of tracking devices constitutes a search per the 4th Amendment. In their ruling, the Court mentioned the right to privacy over 50 times. However, the 4th Amendment only provides protection against government searches.

Disney felt it important enough to explicitly mention use of RFID devices on their MM+ Terms and Conditions webpage, which includes:

The RF Devices use technology similar to the radio and computer technology in smart phones, video game controllers, credit cards and "easy pass" toll payment systems. Many of the features enabled by your RF Device will be accessed by "touching" your RF Device to touch points located throughout our Resorts. (For security purposes, you may also be required to provide additional authentication information to enable certain functions, such as a biometric read or PIN.) Other features are triggered automatically when readers located throughout the Resort recognize your RF Device when you are within the vicinity of the readers.

The last sentence is interesting since it indicates RFID devices will be read at an undefined distance, more than just touch points.

 

[wm49rs]

And yet the Supreme Court ruling still doesn't apply to a voluntary program by a private company.....

 

[ParentsOf4]

And yet the Supreme Court ruling still doesn't apply to a voluntary program by a private company.....

Hence my early posts about the slow erosion of our civil liberties through corporate influence.

You'll find such concerns have been expressed for many years. As suggested by Justice Alito in the ruling, laws have not kept pace with technology. With corporations spending millions in Washington and state capitals to lobby legislative bodies, our liberties are slowly being eroded. Some brilliant minds have expressed great concern over the declining state of affairs.

Let me put it another way. At what point will corporations go too far for you?

 

[wm49rs]

Hence my early posts about the slow erosion of our civil liberties through corporate influence.

You'll find such concerns have been expressed for many years. As suggested by Justice Alito in the ruling, laws have not kept pace with technology. With corporations spending millions in Washington and state capitals to lobby legislative bodies, our liberties are slowly being eroded. Some brilliant minds have expressed great concern over the declining state of affairs.

Let me put it another way. At what point will corporations go too far for you?

Corporations I can opt not to engage with. At what point will you stop confusing civil liberties with consumer's rights? I mean, you threw out the ultimate hyperbole earlier, so just where do you propose to end?

 

[michmousefan]

Accessing the Fastpass system via your phone or through centralized kiosks also eliminates the "Fastpass Runner". To me, that's a huge selling point and if it was used without scheduling Fastpass+ days in advance, I would be very excited about the change. The thing is, with all of NextGen, they're showing their greed.

Agreed. It's like they are trying to do too much too soon. Why not just open up the next day's allotment of online fastpasses the day before? Or maybe after 7pm for the next day?

 

[Computer Magic]

I apologize for having offended.

I have contacted Disney directly concerning MM+. Although Disney claims it is “optional”, the reality is the only thing “guests” are promised without signing up for MM+ is admission to the theme parks. It appears that is promised only because Disney hasn’t yet figured out an efficient way to get people who purchase tickets at the gate or from third parties to sign up for MM+. Iger wasn’t kidding when he replied to Rep. Markey:

The point my earlier posts were to note that our civil liberties do not suddenly disappear one day. They slowly are eroded over time. For me to compare MM+ to the Holocaust is wrong. However, the Holocaust did not happen in a vacuum. The events leading to it were decades in the making.

There once was a time when our civil liberties and rights to privacy were treated with more respect than they are today. There was a time in the post-Watergate era when the President, Congress, and the Supreme Court took steps to restore civil liberties. Since then, these civil liberties once again are being eroded. Often it is the private sector most guilty of this, largely by using their incredible financial resources to influence decisions in Washington that adversely affect all of us. Once again quoting Alex Carey:

Several national and international organizations oppose using RFID technology on humans. Several nations not so heavily influenced by political lobbyists are taking steps to limit their use. If Disney is not challenged today in their use of RFID technology to track “guests”, where does it end? What happens when banks require us to carry a tracking devide to take out a loan? When grocery stores require one to purchase food? What laws are in place to protect us? Again, where does it end?

When it comes to invasions of privacy, every person has their thresholds. Yours might be different than mine. With Disney’s use of RFID technology to track us, I’ve reached mine.

You are correct and I agree. However, Disney has been tracking long before RFID. The key to the kingdom has been around since my first trip in 1995 and tracks everything.

They know when I use a FP and enter the parks. You don't have to use a credit card to get all the perks. Of course unless you use cash, your credit card will know every Turkey Leg you eat which i guess could be used against if turned over to our Health Insurance.

I'm not sure society cares how many times I ride HH instead of HoP.

 

[trs518]

You are correct and I agree. However, Disney has been tracking long before RFID. The key to the kingdom has been around since my first trip in 1995 and tracks everything.

They know when I use a FP and enter the parks. You don't have to use a credit card to get all the perks. Of course unless you use cash, your credit card will know every Turkey Leg you eat which i guess could be used against if turned over to our Health Insurance.

I'm not sure society cares how many times I ride HH instead of HoP.

We use KTTW card also and I don't think they'll get any additional private data.

 

[lego606]

We use KTTW card also and I don't think they'll get any additional private data.

I agree. Other than semi-shoddy location data, they're not getting any new info.

 

[Rob562]

They are likely both a form of identifier - just different means of doing it and capabilities. The difference is more in terminology and limits for each. Kind of like a car and a truck.. both are vehicles, but they have different capabilities and constraints.

Its my theory the radio is a beacon advertising a ID so that they can passively find band holders over larger areas.. where the RFID tags will be used more for 'direct interaction' things.. or maybe tracking in very focused areas.

The RFID tags need to be irradiated to be detected.. the radios in theory would not.

If I recall correctly, the bands actually have 2, or possibly 3, *different* systems built into them. The FCC filing was strictly for the powered broadcast part of the band, because it's essentially like a teeny tiny radio station broadcasting. And because of that, Disney had to file it with the FCC.

The most likely use for this powered broadcast is to send out a serial number that only matters to Disney, for use in places where they need to know you from a distance away. This is how Small World will know that you're in a boat approaching the finale room, and cue the NextGen system to do whatever it is that it'll be doing in there. Or how a character might know your name before you meet them.

And yes, this broadcasting portion is also how Disney could theoretically track you within the park, but they would have to have a ton of sensors installed to do that first. They could also use them so that *everyone* entering the Standby line for an attraction is essentially holding a FLIK card that tracks the wait time, rather than some random person every 5 minutes.

There is also at least one passive RFID system, possibly two. These are ones where you have to get the band right up next to the reader for it to read. This is what is used for room keys, park ticket, tap-to-pay stations, interactive things where they have to specifically identify you in a specific place (the design stations and ride vehicles in Test Track, for example). And if there are multiple RFID systems, each chip could be used for a different task. Things tied to your hotel (room charging, room key, meal plan) could be one chip, and the other could be your park ticket. Since the hotel computers and the ticket computers are separate now anyway, it would simply the interaction between the bands and the systems.

At one point I also hypothesized a couple ways that Disney could add a layer of protection in keeping the bands from being cloned. If someone were able to clone the broadcast portion, the system could detect two bands at the same time in two locations and then flag both of them to be ignored. Or, when buying something with touch-to-pay, the system could also look to see if the accompanying broadcasting tag is in close proximity to the register. That way if the passive RFID chip is cloned, if the broadcast portion also isn't there, it could be flagged.

-Rob

 

[Gabe1]

If I recall correctly, the bands actually have 2, or possibly 3, *different* systems built into them. The FCC filing was strictly for the powered broadcast part of the band, because it's essentially like a teeny tiny radio station broadcasting. And because of that, Disney had to file it with the FCC.

The most likely use for this powered broadcast is to send out a serial number that only matters to Disney, for use in places where they need to know you from a distance away. This is how Small World will know that you're in a boat approaching the finale room, and cue the NextGen system to do whatever it is that it'll be doing in there. Or how a character might know your name before you meet them.

And yes, this broadcasting portion is also how Disney could theoretically track you within the park, but they would have to have a ton of sensors installed to do that first. They could also use them so that *everyone* entering the Standby line for an attraction is essentially holding a FLIK card that tracks the wait time, rather than some random person every 5 minutes.

There is also at least one passive RFID system, possibly two. These are ones where you have to get the band right up next to the reader for it to read. This is what is used for room keys, park ticket, tap-to-pay stations, interactive things where they have to specifically identify you in a specific place (the design stations and ride vehicles in Test Track, for example). And if there are multiple RFID systems, each chip could be used for a different task. Things tied to your hotel (room charging, room key, meal plan) could be one chip, and the other could be your park ticket. Since the hotel computers and the ticket computers are separate now anyway, it would simply the interaction between the bands and the systems.

At one point I also hypothesized a couple ways that Disney could add a layer of protection in keeping the bands from being cloned. If someone were able to clone the broadcast portion, the system could detect two bands at the same time in two locations and then flag both of them to be ignored. Or, when buying something with touch-to-pay, the system could also look to see if the accompanying broadcasting tag is in close proximity to the register. That way if the passive RFID chip is cloned, if the broadcast portion also isn't there, it could be flagged.

-Rob

So what keeps the band from being hacked by bad guys? Could someone with an unauthorized reader get up close enough to guest in a queue, on a bus, sitting on a bench and lift info from a band? We keep hearing firms like twitter, Microsoft being hacked, what makes this My Disney Experience safe for guests?

 

[lazyboy97o]

So what keeps the band from being hacked by bad guys? Could someone with an unauthorized reader get up close enough to guest in a queue, on a bus, sitting on a bench and lift info from a band? We keep hearing firms like twitter, Microsoft being hacked, what makes this My Disney Experience safe for guests?

The band itself does not carry the data. The hacker would have to be able to take the band's ID and properly correlate it with Disney's system. It'd be easier to skip getting individual IDs and just go after Disney's system where you can get data on a mass of people all at once.

 

[MattM]

Hence my early posts about the slow erosion of our civil liberties through corporate influence.

You'll find such concerns have been expressed for many years. As suggested by Justice Alito in the ruling, laws have not kept pace with technology. With corporations spending millions in Washington and state capitals to lobby legislative bodies, our liberties are slowly being eroded. Some brilliant minds have expressed great concern over the declining state of affairs.

Let me put it another way. At what point will corporations go too far for you?

Here's where I'm not making the connection. What constitutionally protected civil liberties have corporations eroded from us? I could get behind the argument of GOVERNMENT taking civil liberties from us. The only way a corporation, such as Disney, can "violate" your civil liberties is if you voluntary agree to their terms of entrance/use/agreement and thus consent to having those liberties "violated.". But even still, no liberties would have been violated anyway, because a corporation is not a government.

When can a corporation go too far for me? Simple answer: never. I am not entitled to consume a product a company offers. If I do not like the conditions set forth to consume their product, I will simply stop doing so, or migrate to their competition, provided they have more amenable terms. The only way the company will have an incentive to change is by you ceasing to give them your dollars.

 

[Tom]

So what keeps the band from being hacked by bad guys? Could someone with an unauthorized reader get up close enough to guest in a queue, on a bus, sitting on a bench and lift info from a band? We keep hearing firms like twitter, Microsoft being hacked, what makes this My Disney Experience safe for guests?

The band itself does not carry the data. The hacker would have to be able to take the band's ID and properly correlate it with Disney's system. It'd be easier to skip getting individual IDs and just go after Disney's system where you can get data on a mass of people all at once.

lazyboy97o is right.

Yes, a bad guy COULD use a reader to grab ID numbers off of wristbands. Then they would have to also embed that code onto another wristband, since you will need a wristband or KttW card to charge anything at stores, restaurants or snack carts. Even the worst CM would notice if you were tapping something that wasn't recognizable.

Assuming they DO go that far and start charging things, it's only being applied to your Disney account, which is then reconciled and charged to your card at the end of your trip, or when you hit the charging limit you set. When you get the statement on your door, you'll notice if there are a bunch of charges that you didn't make. That's when you head to Guest Relations to dispute them, and then to your Credit Card company as a last resort.

So, while the chance of someone pulling off the fraud exists, the chance of it coming out of your pocket is almost zero.

And they won't be able to break into your room, because they won't know where your room is. They can't use the ID to do any sort of reverse lookup, because only devices ON Disney's private LAN (network) would be authenticated to query the database. To pull off a feat like hacking that far into the system would mean the hacker is quite elite....and would just go straight for the pot of gold, bypassing the hassle of stealing individual IDs.

Long story short - you put yourself more at risk by carrying your actual Credit Card into the park than you will having RFID identification on your person.