NextGen / FP+ / Magic Band. The official truth starts to appear

[Tom]

There's also the very real possibility that part of the budget is fraud detection analysis. In this case, if the band's location trips sensors/counters in diverging locations, then an alarm could very well go off.

This is actually very likely. You don't roll out something of this magnitude without testing it's vulnerabilities in every imaginable way. Likewise, if it's as sophisticated as people are making it out to be, there's no reason why they couldn't run their own algorithms to check for fraud (like all the CC companies do already).

I know we're talking about Disney IT, but I think the regular website geniuses have little to do with this project, so it's probably being implemented correctly on the back end. Plus, they have a hundred lawyers picking it apart from every angle as well. Even with their enormous new privacy policy/terms, they still have to protect themselves from criminal "data mining" by outsiders.

 

[RSoxNo1]

I said to a Disney tech employee that the system wasn't ready yet, and she agreed. My issue was much more trivial than seeing someone else's information, but putting incomplete product out there is par for the course for Disney. They've done it recently with refurbishments and it's resulted in bad press.

It seems that they don't understand that first impressions go along way, and Disney has ignored that lately.

• My Magic+ isn't working correctly and there was already hesitation about the system? Well let's change our website over before everything is working properly...
• The design process of Test Track 2.0 isn't syncing with the attraction like it should? Well, people won't care about the primary selling point of the attraction, so let's open early when we're not ready...
• The interactive queue for Big Thunder Mountain wasn't completed during the refurbishment that saw other effects turned off? Well guests won't mind those missing effects if we tell them a story about Tony Baxter...
• We told people that Journey of the Little Mermaid will be ready to go in November? Well, let's stick Flotsam and Jetsam in a stationary position and play their audio, it's not like the guests know that they should move...

 

[MattM]

The devil's in the details. The legislation that backs up these principals is why we have what little protection that we have, and the companies involved wiggle & squeeze well into (and in some cases a little past) the fuzzy gray area that the law creates. It's still an evolving area, and it takes a lot of diligence on the part of privacy advocates to keep the line from moving in the wrong direction.

Interesting. But wouldn't any legislation work under the assumption that one is entitled to patronize the business that the government is regulating? I have zero familiarity with European law.

 

[Monty]

I said to a Disney tech employee that the system wasn't ready yet, and she agreed. My issue was much more trivial than seeing someone else's information, but putting incomplete product out there is par for the course for Disney. They've done it recently with refurbishments and it's resulted in bad press.

It seems that they don't understand that first impressions go along way, and Disney has ignored that lately.

• My Magic+ isn't working correctly and there was already hesitation about the system? Well let's change our website over before everything is working properly...
• The design process of Test Track 2.0 isn't syncing with the attraction like it should? Well, people won't care about the primary selling point of the attraction, so let's open early when we're not ready...
• The interactive queue for Big Thunder Mountain wasn't completed during the refurbishment that saw other effects turned off? Well guests won't mind those missing effects if we tell them a story about Tony Baxter...
• We told people that Journey of the Little Mermaid will be ready to go in November? Well, let's stick Flotsam and Jetsam in a stationary position and play their audio, it's not like the guests know that they should move...

This is in no way meant as a defence of Disney, but there are aspects of an IT roll-out that can't be beta-tested. The interaction between live systems of the scope and complexity of Disney's [which are, as I understand it a major disaster in their set-up], can't be fully tested without "going live". The only option to avoid that would be to build the entire system from scratch separately from the current infrastructure and populate it with all data currently being used and test it in isolation as a robust system. There are two major issues with that, it would be prohibitively expensive and even after full-blown testing the transition from one system to the other would be a mind-bogglingly complex logistical nightmare. Even if they had the money and time to do a complete replacement system, there would still be bugs to iron out after roll-out. Entering human beings into the mix creates a whole new set of headaches.

How effective they are in trying to shoe-horn an upgrade this significant into a pre-existing less-than-stellar infrastructure successfully is anybody's guess, but it doesn't look good thus far.

 

[LuvtheGoof]

For me, I simply want my children to be able to live their lives without being bodily tracked.

From what I have read, the option will still be open to go with the current RFID KTTW cards instead of the bands. If you don't want to be tracked, companies sell holders that block the RFID from being read. No tracking, problem solved.

Oh, and if you have been to Disney in the last, oh 20 years or so, you are ALREADY being tracked every time you enter a park, get a Fastpass, charge anything to your room, etc. This isn't that much different. The Disney privacy policy already states that individuals will NOT be tracked as an individual (they will NOT be looking to see where you are at any given moment), and that only aggregate people data will be used. They wish to know how many people went through Adventureland today, not whether YOU did. Can you possibly imagine the MILLIONS of data points that would have to be sifted through just to find you (and, please, when I say, you, I only mean a single person in general)? No ROI there, and not worth the money to do it.

 

[RSoxNo1]

This is in no way meant as a defence of Disney, but there are aspects of an IT roll-out that can't be beta-tested. The interaction between live systems of the scope and complexity of Disney's [which are, as I understand it a major disaster in their set-up], can't be fully tested without "going live". The only option to avoid that would be to build the entire system from scratch separately from the current infrastructure and populate it with all data currently being used and test it in isolation as a robust system. There are two major issues with that, it would be prohibitively expensive and even after full-blown testing the transition from one system to the other would be a mind-bogglingly complex logistical nightmare. Even if they had the money and time to do a complete replacement system, there would still be bugs to iron out after roll-out. Entering human beings into the mix creates a whole new set of headaches.

How effective they are in trying to shoe-horn an upgrade this significant into a pre-existing less-than-stellar infrastructure successfully is anybody's guess, but it doesn't look good thus far.

These bugs are major bugs though. I understand that they may have needed to go into a beta mode while testing is done, but if a problem of this magnitude (incorrect data pulling) is happening, they should also be able to revert back to the old system.

This frustrates me, and it's not just Disney. I have a photobucket pro account and they recently changed their format over to a more advanced editor. The problem is, many of the features from the old version haven't been carried over yet. For a while they gave people the option to toggle between the two, and I continued to use the old version. Recently I switched to the new version to see if all of the features I wanted had moved over and they hadn't but I couldnt' switch back. It took multiple emails to the developers to get my account switched back to the old version, but it was done.

I'm willing to change, but I become increasingly more opposed to change if it becomes an inconvenience to me.

 

[devoy1701]

This is in no way meant as a defence of Disney, but there are aspects of an IT roll-out that can't be beta-tested. The interaction between live systems of the scope and complexity of Disney's [which are, as I understand it a major disaster in their set-up], can't be fully tested without "going live". The only option to avoid that would be to build the entire system from scratch separately from the current infrastructure and populate it with all data currently being used and test it in isolation as a robust system. There are two major issues with that, it would be prohibitively expensive and even after full-blown testing the transition from one system to the other would be a mind-bogglingly complex logistical nightmare. Even if they had the money and time to do a complete replacement system, there would still be bugs to iron out after roll-out. Entering human beings into the mix creates a whole new set of headaches.

How effective they are in trying to shoe-horn an upgrade this significant into a pre-existing less-than-stellar infrastructure successfully is anybody's guess, but it doesn't look good thus far.

This is true of most IT infrastructures believe it or not. When new features are built out, or data is needed in new ways, or new webportal or wizard interfaces are needed, it's simply added to the existing infrastructure. Before you know it, 5 or 6 releases later, the structure and inner joins of the database is so ridiculous, pieces start falling out. It's very hard to test all of the possible bugs in a demo environment sometimes.

These bugs are major bugs though. I understand that they may have needed to go into a beta mode while testing is done, but if a problem of this magnitude (incorrect data pulling) is happening, they should also be able to revert back to the old system.

This frustrates me, and it's not just Disney. I have a photobucket pro account and they recently changed their format over to a more advanced editor. The problem is, many of the features from the old version haven't been carried over yet. For a while they gave people the option to toggle between the two, and I continued to use the old version. Recently I switched to the new version to see if all of the features I wanted had moved over and they hadn't but I couldnt' switch back. It took multiple emails to the developers to get my account switched back to the old version, but it was done.

I'm willing to change, but I become increasingly more opposed to change if it becomes an inconvenience to me.

You would be surprised (though perhaps not) how many of these types of releases do not have rollback plans. Sometimes it's because of poor planning, but often times it's because of good planning (read: large egos only set up one course of action...failure/rollback is not an option). I have been involved with many system enhancements or new system rollouts that didn't contain a contingency plan for the simple fact of "this is happening now," resulting in weeks or months of "bug fests" and critical issue escalations and stop-gap solutioning...usually because the live environment is so complex that that particular issue "wasn't scoped." There's a reason why they say there's never a recession in the IT World...

 

[ParentsOf4]

From what I have read, the option will still be open to go with the current RFID KTTW cards instead of the bands. If you don't want to be tracked, companies sell holders that block the RFID from being read. No tracking, problem solved.

Oh, and if you have been to Disney in the last, oh 20 years or so, you are ALREADY being tracked every time you enter a park, get a Fastpass, charge anything to your room, etc. This isn't that much different. The Disney privacy policy already states that individuals will NOT be tracked as an individual (they will NOT be looking to see where you are at any given moment), and that only aggregate people data will be used. They wish to know how many people went through Adventureland today, not whether YOU did. Can you possibly imagine the MILLIONS of data points that would have to be sifted through just to find you (and, please, when I say, you, I only mean a single person in general)? No ROI there, and not worth the money to do it.

I already plan to purchase a RFID-blocking device, see here:

http://forums.wdwmagic.com/threads/...ons-ii-nge-baxter.859440/page-59#post-5327244

And here:

http://forums.wdwmagic.com/threads/...ions-and-opinions.857322/page-72#post-5266893

Actually, not entirely true. I've already cancelled my next two WDW visits and replaced them with visits to Universal; the wallet will come later. However, you miss the bigger issue. Today it's Disney for a vacation, tomorrow it's who and for what? What laws are in place to protect consumers from companies requiring us to be tracked? Again, this is the Wild West era of tracking devices. I am hardly the first person to suggest there is something Big Brother-ish about MagicBands. In fact, that aspect was brought up in nearly every article that appeared when MyMagic+ was first announced.

Please be aware that I've already discussed the distinction between tracked me bodily and tracking my financial-related transactions here:

http://forums.wdwmagic.com/threads/congress-questions-next-gen.858932/page-23#post-5299946

Hopefully this will make the distinction clearer. Our financial transactions always have been a matter of shared records and this aspect, for example, was a driving force for the passage of the Privacy Act of 1974.

In a perfect world, I'd like to see a "Tracking Device Act on 2013" that would establish laws governing use of such devices.

 

[flynnibus]

The only option to avoid that would be to build the entire system from scratch separately from the current infrastructure and populate it with all data currently being used and test it in isolation as a robust system. There are two major issues with that, it would be prohibitively expensive and even after full-blown testing the transition from one system to the other would be a mind-bogglingly complex logistical nightmare.

But that is exactly what big, critical systems do. It's why organizations have multiple stages in how they test... Test... Staging... Pilot... Production.., etc

Reproducing the chaos of in the wild use is in part what qa is supposed to do.

Yes it's expensive... But it's what it costs as the level of criticality increases

 

[devoy1701]

But that is exactly what big, critical systems do. It's why organizations have multiple stages in how they test... Test... Staging... Pilot... Production.., etc

Reproducing the chaos of in the wild use is in part what qa is supposed to do.

Yes it's expensive... But it's what it costs as the level of criticality increases

and it's usually not budgeted.

 

[George]

and it's usually not budgeted.

Good point. In my job we run into issues because bigwigs don't appreciate technical complexity. I'm sure some of the issues are caused by this. Speaking of my job, I've dorked around enough. Now, I'm going to have to work like a dog to get done what I need to today. :lookaroun

 

[Pentacat]

and it's usually not budgeted.

Not to mention that some members upper management consider rollback/back-out plans tantamount to admitting defeat. I can't tell you how many times I've heard this one, "You've given up before the game has even started." Why do they always have to use sports analogies?

Now I'm having flashbacks.

 

[GrumpyFan]

I already plan to purchase a RFID-blocking device, see here:

http://forums.wdwmagic.com/threads/...ons-ii-nge-baxter.859440/page-59#post-5327244

And here:

http://forums.wdwmagic.com/threads/...ions-and-opinions.857322/page-72#post-5266893

Actually, not entirely true. I've already cancelled my next two WDW visits and replaced them with visits to Universal; the wallet will come later. However, you miss the bigger issue. Today it's Disney for a vacation, tomorrow it's who and for what? What laws are in place to protect consumers from companies requiring us to be tracked? Again, this is the Wild West era of tracking devices. I am hardly the first person to suggest there is something Big Brother-ish about MagicBands. In fact, that aspect was brought up in nearly every article that appeared when MyMagic+ was first announced.

Please be aware that I've already discussed the distinction between tracked me bodily and tracking my financial-related transactions here:

http://forums.wdwmagic.com/threads/congress-questions-next-gen.858932/page-23#post-5299946

Hopefully this will make the distinction clearer. Our financial transactions always have been a matter of shared records and this aspect, for example, was a driving force for the passage of the Privacy Act of 1974.

In a perfect world, I'd like to see a "Tracking Device Act on 2013" that would establish laws governing use of such devices.

I stepped away from this discussion for a couple of weeks for several reasons, the biggest being I was tired of reading about some people's paranoid, fear-driven rants on Disney's use of RFID. I suppose I should commend you on not giving up the fight, but really, it's just starting to get old now.

 

[tracyandalex]

Just curious, do any Floridians here use SunPass?

We do not, but we know a bunch of folks who do. We have talked several times about getting one and probably will eventually. I believe in south Florida you have to have one or you get mailed a bill in the mail for your tolls. There are several toll stations that no longer take actual money of even have a person to take money.

 

[devoy1701]

Just curious, do any Floridians here use SunPass?

I do...curious to the connection you're gonna make. I think I know where you're going, but will let you do the honors.

 

[ParentsOf4]

I stepped away from this discussion for a couple of weeks for several reasons, the biggest being I was tired of reading about some people's paranoid, fear-driven rants on Disney's use of RFID. I suppose I should commend you on not giving up the fight, but really, it's just starting to get old now.

How do you think I feel? People join the conversation late with the same "old" comments. I'm happy to respond to their thoughts on the subject but there's a reason I keep referring back to posts that are a month or more old.

I'll stop posting once people stop quoting my posts.

 

[Goofyernmost]

We do not, but we know a bunch of folks who do. We have talked several times about getting one and probably will eventually. I believe in south Florida you have to have one or you get mailed a bill in the mail for your tolls. There are several toll stations that no longer take actual money of even have a person to take money.

In NC we have a couple of toll roads that do that now. I found myself on a short stretch of this highway, once in each direction. About a month later I got a bill in the mail for $1.70. I cannot imagine how it was a positive result. They even included a photocopy of the tail of my car with the bill. So they printed the bill, copied the photo, put it in an envelope, paid postage for mail, not to mention the research required to find out just exactly who owned the car. If they could do that for $1.70, then I must admire their thriftiness. I, however, would bet that it came out of the taxpayers pocket.

 

[Alektronic]

This is true of most IT infrastructures believe it or not. When new features are built out, or data is needed in new ways, or new webportal or wizard interfaces are needed, it's simply added to the existing infrastructure. Before you know it, 5 or 6 releases later, the structure and inner joins of the database is so ridiculous, pieces start falling out. It's very hard to test all of the possible bugs in a demo environment sometimes.



You would be surprised (though perhaps not) how many of these types of releases do not have rollback plans. Sometimes it's because of poor planning, but often times it's because of good planning (read: large egos only set up one course of action...failure/rollback is not an option). I have been involved with many system enhancements or new system rollouts that didn't contain a contingency plan for the simple fact of "this is happening now," resulting in weeks or months of "bug fests" and critical issue escalations and stop-gap solutioning...usually because the live environment is so complex that that particular issue "wasn't scoped." There's a reason why they say there's never a recession in the IT World...

And it also happens when you contract out your network adminstration to a company in India

 

[Timekeeper]

In NC we have a couple of toll roads that do that now. I found myself on a short stretch of this highway, once in each direction. About a month later I got a bill in the mail for $1.70. I cannot imagine how it was a positive result. They even included a photocopy of the tail of my car with the bill. So they printed the bill, copied the photo, put it in an envelope, paid postage for mail, not to mention the research required to find out just exactly who owned the car. If they could do that for $1.70, then I must admire there thriftiness. I, however, would bet that it came out of the taxpayers pocket.

There's also the income from late fees and default judgments that are assessed against procrastinators... but balance that with those who never pay and are essentially judgement-proof (meaning it's impossible to collect against them), and the resources wasted attempting to collect against them.

Kinda reminds me of when counties throw people (often homeless) in jail for local ordinance violations like panhandling, open containers, and lodging in the open. Well, guess who pays for them to be lodging in the county jails.

 

[tracyandalex]

In NC we have a couple of toll roads that do that now. I found myself on a short stretch of this highway, once in each direction. About a month later I got a bill in the mail for $1.70. I cannot imagine how it was a positive result. They even included a photocopy of the tail of my car with the bill. So they printed the bill, copied the photo, put it in an envelope, paid postage for mail, not to mention the research required to find out just exactly who owned the car. If they could do that for $1.70, then I must admire there thriftiness. I, however, would bet that it came out of the taxpayers pocket.

That happened to us too in Miami. Also, we thought it was funny that we mailed our payment to an address in Atlanta!