News and observations from the past month

[ford91exploder]

I know what you are trying to say... but the way you are saying it is soo b0rked. The time required to fill the queue means nothing to ride capacity as long as the queue remains full enough to feed the actual ride capacity. Given there is always standby... that's never an issue.

The only issue is traffic jams in the queue itself.. it's never going to impact actual ride capacity.

Ah, Grasshopper you are missing the point, With FP+ the FP line is the primary line and if TDO says that X FP+ queue members are to be admitted before allowing Y standby members, Well then the CM's do what they are told or they get their walking papers.

At this point it does not matter what the respective queue lengths are since the model is now 'strict priority' it means that if capacity in the primary queue is unused no other queues are allowed to use the unallocated capacity.

This can be seen in what happened at Soarin' last week when one of the other members was in standby line which only took 20 people in an HOUR of waiting. This suggests that indeed a strict priority model is in use.

 

[Bairstow]

The problem is that FP+ REDUCES ride capacity due to the extended time needed to check FP+ entitlement, The current FP system probably takes 1-3 seconds per rider to check and collect the physical FP's New system takes 10-20 seconds on average to check the entitlement.

This of course reduces the capacity of the ride now the CM's provided they are allowed by management could push more standby's through but the open question is will they be allowed to do so.

So in effect FP+ acts to reduce overall ride capacity regardless of the actual capacity of the ride mechanism.

Where are you getting a figure of 10-20 seconds to check a fast pass plus appointment? When I was using my band for this purpose it never took more than 3 seconds, and since most of the check stations have dual scanners the cm there could check 2 guests at once. Even then, there's always a buffer of guests in front of any ride's actual load station so even if checking paper passes was taking a long time it wouldn't affect actual ride capacity.

 

[ford91exploder]

Where are you getting a figure of 10-20 seconds to check a fast pass plus appointment? When I was using my band for this purpose it never took more than 3 seconds, and since most of the check stations have dual scanners the cm there could check 2 guests at once. Even then, there's always a buffer of guests in front of any ride's actual load station so even if checking paper passes was taking a long time it wouldn't affect actual ride capacity.

Counting a group of 20 people and how long it took between the first and last person to clear the mickey heads. this of course was a single sample and as such is not truly statistically valid

 

[CDavid]

Ah, Grasshopper you are missing the point, With FP+ the FP line is the primary line and if TDO says that X FP+ queue members are to be admitted before allowing Y standby members, Well then the CM's do what they are told or they get their walking papers.

At this point it does not matter what the respective queue lengths are since the model is now 'strict priority' it means that if capacity in the primary queue is unused no other queues are allowed to use the unallocated capacity.

This can be seen in what happened at Soarin' last week when one of the other members was in standby line which only took 20 people in an HOUR of waiting. This suggests that indeed a strict priority model is in use.

That still has no impact on actual ride capacity. It doesn't matter which line is the primary line, how many people are admitted from each, or even how fast either line moves. So long as there are no empty seats on the ride vehicle(s) dispatched, ride capacity remains unchanged.

For an (hypothetical) attraction with an hourly capacity of 1,000 people, if you only admit 20 people from standby, ride capacity remains 100% so long as you admit 980 persons from FP. If you admit only 350 people an hour from FP, for instance, then nothing is changed unless you admit fewer than 650 from standby.

 

[flynnibus]

Ah, Grasshopper you are missing the point, With FP+ the FP line is the primary line and if TDO says that X FP+ queue members are to be admitted before allowing Y standby members, Well then the CM's do what they are told or they get their walking papers.

This still means nothing.

The loading station is not the merge point... there is no risk of the ride being ready to accept riders and no riders there waiting because there is queueing beyond your 'choke point' and standby will always fill in if there are no FP+ people at merge because they were backed up. The only situation is if the ride consumes riders faster than they can fill the loading area.

If you are trying to say the check at merge is the problem... at most rides there is so much queue beyond the merge point this isn't an issue.

Ops won't let rides go unriden. If they can't get enough people through FP merge check, they'll adapt by either interweaving standby or press the FP+ technology.

 

[Goofnut1980]

Wish I could see pics of JC emptied... I bet it looks cool!

 

[meyeet]

Wish I could see pics of JC emptied... I bet it looks cool!

Here you go

View attachment 31472

 

[NearTheEars]

Silly newbie question here, but are the JC boats attached to a guiding track or are the captains in complete control.

 

[Goofnut1980]

Here you go

Holy cool looking! so its not really a track the boat glides on, but a small opening... weird!

 

[dhall]

The one true advantage of FP+ is that making changes to the system is mostly in the software. WDW can prototype several algorithms until it comes up with one that is the most "successful". This means the system that generates the most revenue which generally means making the most people spending the most money the most happy. It's simply good business.

If data suggests limiting FP+ to only onsite guests generates the most profit, then expect FP+ to go that way eventually. If it suggests all guests should have identical access, then expect FP+ to go that way.

FP+ will be driven by the market. It would be naive to assume that today's FP+ will be the same in a few years; even in a few months.

While that's all certainly one possible outcome, I'm personally not willing to bet on it. One of the traps to implementing systems like NextGen is that it generates so much data that pretty much anyone with an agenda an find (or arrange) data that reinforces their preferred outcome. It's still going to come down to which managers have the ears of which executives, but now all their arguments will come "from the data", so their garbage-in-garbage-out analysis will be even less subject to question.

Will there be anyone qualified to question the validity of the analytics, double check that apples are being compared only to apples, and ensure that columns of numbers actually add up to the total shown at the bottom? Does Disney currently employ anyone with that level of scepticism at a high enough level to make any difference?

No matter what corporate Disney does, any version of FP+ does not solve the core problem: ride capacity. All FP+ does is change how the attraction capacity pie is divided. It does not increase the size of the pie. If for no other reason, FP+ was an expensive and short-sighted non-solution to a bigger problem.

 

[ford91exploder]

While that's all certainly one possible outcome, I'm personally not willing to bet on it. One of the traps to implementing systems like NextGen is that it generates so much data that pretty much anyone with an agenda an find (or arrange) data that reinforces their preferred outcome. It's still going to come down to which managers have the ears of which executives, but now all their arguments will come "from the data", so their garbage-in-garbage-out analysis will be even less subject to question.

Will there be anyone qualified to question the validity of the analytics, double check that apples are being compared only to apples, and ensure that columns of numbers actually add up to the total shown at the bottom? Does Disney currently employ anyone with that level of scepticism at a high enough level to make any difference?

Ah the age old acronym rises again GIGO, "Garbage in, GOSPEL OUT", This is unfortunately is exactly what will happen the data will be used to backstop whatever harebrained scheme TWDC executives are cooking up next, American managers like to pretend they are being scientific by looking only at 'The Numbers' but most times they cannot even crossfoot a spreadsheet much less run a complex numerical analysys, If they could they would be running SPSSx or MATLAB/MAPLE/Wolfram Alpha instead of Excel, and they would not understand what a MANOVA was if it bit them.

 

[Tom]

Silly newbie question here, but are the JC boats attached to a guiding track or are the captains in complete control.

The skippers only control the speed and forward/reverse direction of the boats. They have a set of t-bars that hang below the boat and travel loosely through a slot in the bottom of the concrete river.

 

[GoofGoof]

Ah, Grasshopper you are missing the point, With FP+ the FP line is the primary line and if TDO says that X FP+ queue members are to be admitted before allowing Y standby members, Well then the CM's do what they are told or they get their walking papers.

At this point it does not matter what the respective queue lengths are since the model is now 'strict priority' it means that if capacity in the primary queue is unused no other queues are allowed to use the unallocated capacity.

This can be seen in what happened at Soarin' last week when one of the other members was in standby line which only took 20 people in an HOUR of waiting. This suggests that indeed a strict priority model is in use.

I'm not following this. I don't see how long it takes to scan your band having any impact on ride capacity. I get the concept that the majority of people in the FP line will go before people in standby. That is what happens now. What I doubt is this:

At this point it does not matter what the respective queue lengths are since the model is now 'strict priority' it means that if capacity in the primary queue is unused no other queues are allowed to use the unallocated capacity.

It sounds like you are saying that even if nobody is in the FP line they will still hold back standby guests anyway letting the ride capacity go unused. Maybe that isn't what you meant, but if it is that ain't going to happen.

We still don't know how many FP reservations per hour the system is going to allow. If the percent of FP+ allocations is equal to the current percent of fast pass given out then there will be no change. If the percent goes up then there will be additional guests in the FP line and less capacity available for standby. Without that information it's impossible to tell what the impact will be to standby availability. Keep in mind too that you are limited to 3 FP reservations per day which include meet and greets, shows, parades and even counter service meals.

 

[ford91exploder]

I'm not following this. I don't see how long it takes to scan your band having any impact on ride capacity. I get the concept that the majority of people in the FP line will go before people in standby. That is what happens now. What I doubt is this:

It sounds like you are saying that even if nobody is in the FP line they will still hold back standby guests anyway letting the ride capacity go unused. Maybe that isn't what you meant, but if it is that ain't going to happen.

Thats EXACTLY what I meant, Sources must remain anonymous.

Just because it doesn't make any SENSE does not mean that it is not official TDO policy. Hopefully they have a change of direction on this stupid idea because I agree with you as to Whyintheh--- would they let ride capacity go unused.

In the past the CM's could break the rules for the guests benefit but with FastPassMinus, the system keeps track of how many guests per minute were checked through the FP- line so the ability to 'bend the rules' has been taken away.

This is probably why we saw standby line only admit 20 people in a hour for Soarin' because the FP- line was below the quota assigned to it.

Now TDO has 'Metrics' to abuse the CM's with, I really feel for the poor SOB's if they thought life as a CM was miserable before they have seen NOTHING yet.

 

[luv]

Adding FP to Haunted Mansion was one thing.

Figment, though...Figment now has a FP line. It's just a little bit crazy.

 

[1023]

Adding FP to Haunted Mansion was one thing.

Figment, though...Figment now has a FP line. It's just a little bit crazy.

Does anyone have a picture of the FP- queue for Figment? If so, please share. When walk on rides get FP- that's one thing. When run through the empty queue and sit alone through the ride gets FP-, that is quite another.

*1023*

 

[GoofGoof]

Thats EXACTLY what I meant, Sources must remain anonymous.

Just because it doesn't make any SENSE does not mean that it is not official TDO policy. Hopefully they have a change of direction on this stupid idea because I agree with you as to Whyintheh--- would they let ride capacity go unused.

In the past the CM's could break the rules for the guests benefit but with FastPassMinus, the system keeps track of how many guests per minute were checked through the FP- line so the ability to 'bend the rules' has been taken away.

This is probably why we saw standby line only admit 20 people in a hour for Soarin' because the FP- line was below the quota assigned to it.

Now TDO has 'Metrics' to abuse the CM's with, I really feel for the poor SOB's if they thought life as a CM was miserable before they have seen NOTHING yet.

I get the issue with 20 standby people in an hour at Soarin'. But in that case the ride was still full right? Probably a case of over distributing FP. I just can't see the benefit of letting ride vehicles run empty while guests wait in the standby line. Who does it benefit?

 

[luv]

I didn't take a picture. I think it's on the left. It's just so dippy to put FP in for Figment.

 

[Voice of Disney sanity]

It is frozen apple juice with a few squirts of marshmellow coffee flavoring. It tastes nice amd comforting.

But it's nothing like butter beer

 

[MichWolv]

The problem is that FP+ REDUCES ride capacity due to the extended time needed to check FP+ entitlement, The current FP system probably takes 1-3 seconds per rider to check and collect the physical FP's New system takes 10-20 seconds on average to check the entitlement.

This of course reduces the capacity of the ride now the CM's provided they are allowed by management could push more standby's through but the open question is will they be allowed to do so.

So in effect FP+ acts to reduce overall ride capacity regardless of the actual capacity of the ride mechanism.

Unless vehicles/cars/seats are going out empty or slower, there is no reduction in capacity. The amount of time it takes to check the band/FP should be irrelevant to that.