News New Gondola Transportation - Disney Skyliner -

[Lensman]

It’s used extensively in Europe and comes in much less than that. I live next to a new line and followed its development; 9 miles was around $600 million.

Rail is something that is like breathing in Europe. You know how to do it and how to do it well. In the states, if it doesn't have a V-8 and can burn rubber from stoplights... we are lost. We don't have too many people that actually know how to build economical, reliable rail systems so it costs more.

The following article starts with heavy rail, but goes into light rail about halfway through.
https://www.citylab.com/transportat...pensive-to-build-urban-rail-in-the-us/551408/

Summary: There is high variability between rail projects in different cities, but light rail in France costs between $40 million and $100 million per mile, in contrast with most projects in the U.S. that costing $120 million and $200 million per mile. Though in a ray of hope, Phoenix built its suburban light rail extension for only $65 million per mile. (I guess this was considered an outlier and so doesn't define the lower bound of $120 million?)The article isn't very rigorous in its analysis, but attributes the cost difference to project management, quality of the subcontractors, and antiquated union rules in the Northeast.

I found it ironic that New York City's Second Avenue Subway cost $2.6 billion per mile, but came in at the lowest cost per daily rider at $25,000. Note: Maybe the reason Disney's new attractions cost so much is because they're using more NYC subcontractors? Either that or the Japanese subcontractors are building a duplicate theme park in Hokkaido. Can you see it in the satellite photo below?

 

[eddie104]

I've even heard people complaining about the rail network in Britain and how long it took to get to certain parts of the country even though its much smaller place than here. Also the new Gondola system is going to be a great addition to the property and hopefully gets expanded to connect all the major hotels.

 

[Thebolt]

UK rail investment has focused on serving London, so the network there is generally high quality; but demand continues to exceed supply; and expectations on service quality tend to be high too.
Much of the rest of the UK is often using old rolling stock, on antiquated infrastructure.
Investing in transportation is primarilly based on the return on investment. London is such a dominant part of the economy that projects there tend to offer the largest benefits.

WDW is presumably also driven largely by ROI, so projects like the Skyliner allow Disney to employ less bus drivers, spend less on energy per. journey, avoid road expansion work etc.

 

[Kamikaze]

I found it ironic that New York City's Second Avenue Subway cost $2.6 billion per mile, but came in at the lowest cost per daily rider at $25,000. Note: Maybe the reason Disney's new attractions cost so much is because they're using more NYC subcontractors?

If Disney had to build their attractions under one of the busiest roads and cities in the world, I could see the Disney costs being as inflated as they are.

 

[Lensman]

If Disney had to build their attractions under one of the busiest roads and cities in the world, I could see the Disney costs being as inflated as they are.

That's what I thought before I read the following NYTimes article. The Second Avenue Subway is deep and so they used a tunnel boring machine rather than the old cut-and-cover method to eliminate disruption. That said, the construction of the 3 stations certainly created disruption - I believe they had to demolish some storefronts.

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/12/28/nyregion/new-york-subway-construction-costs.html

The part about having 23 workers run the tunnel boring machine instead of the usual 10 gives a flavor for why NYC project budgets are so high.

In New York, “underground construction employs approximately four times the number of personnel as in similar jobs in Asia, Australia, or Europe,” according to an internal report by Arup, a consulting firm that worked on the Second Avenue subway and many similar projects around the world.

I also liked the fact that the East Side Access project discovered 200 workers being paid $1000 an hour but no one knew what they were being employed to do! No wonder that project's budget has ballooned to $3.5 billion per mile.

Here's a good NY Magazine article that gives the history and color of the Second Avenue Subway project:
The Line That Time Forgot

 

[RSoxNo1]

It's basically the same system that the Hogwarts Express uses.

You mean the "Train Simulator" Hogwarts Express?

 

[Goofyernmost]

You mean the "Train Simulator" Hogwarts Express?

Actually, the very, very well done, believable "Train Simulator" which knocked the snot out of most anything Disney has done lately. As you all know, I am a certified curmudgeon, and I was impressed beyond even my belief that I could ever achieve.

 

[JoeCamel]

That's what I thought before I read the following NYTimes article. The Second Avenue Subway is deep and so they used a tunnel boring machine rather than the old cut-and-cover method to eliminate disruption. That said, the construction of the 3 stations certainly created disruption - I believe they had to demolish some storefronts.

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/12/28/nyregion/new-york-subway-construction-costs.html

The part about having 23 workers run the tunnel boring machine instead of the usual 10 gives a flavor for why NYC project budgets are so high.



I also liked the fact that the East Side Access project discovered 200 workers being paid $1000 an hour but no one knew what they were being employed to do! No wonder that project's budget has ballooned to $3.5 billion per mile.

Here's a good NY Magazine article that gives the history and color of the Second Avenue Subway project:
The Line That Time Forgot

There you go with the facts again, lay off man and let us have fun.

 

[halltd]

Actually, the very, very well done, believable "Train Simulator" which knocked the snot out of most anything Disney has done lately. As you all know, I am a certified curmudgeon, and I was impressed beyond even my belief that I could ever achieve.

If they had actually hidden the cables and pulleys from view (especially right when you walk in the station), I’d agree with you.

 

[Goofyernmost]

If they had actually hidden the cables and pulleys from view (especially right when you walk in the station), I’d agree with you.

Not something that bothered me, because I do exercise my suspension of disbelief in all my theme park situations and realize the a lot of what happens, happens because of real life mechanics. Once on the train the thought of how it is moving, the speed it is moving, what you are seeing is all illusion and the show is everything other than the cable drive. In the play Peter Pan... Mary Martin wasn't really flying, but, it was still a good show.

 

[Max0211]

Hopefully, it has decent capacity. the monorail is a great example of a mode of transport that has enough capacity where it is actually useful. Same with the bus system. This seems too much like a novelty than a useful mode of transport

 

[MichWolv]

Hopefully, it has decent capacity. the monorail is a great example of a mode of transport that has enough capacity where it is actually useful. Same with the bus system. This seems too much like a novelty than a useful mode of transport

The first post in this thread suggests a capacity of 5,000 people per hour. Might be queues at park closing in that case, but no worse than buses I would think.

 

[MaximumEd]

Hopefully, it has decent capacity. the monorail is a great example of a mode of transport that has enough capacity where it is actually useful. Same with the bus system. This seems too much like a novelty than a useful mode of transport

lol. Ok.

 

[MisterPenguin]

Hopefully, it has decent capacity. the monorail is a great example of a mode of transport that has enough capacity where it is actually useful. Same with the bus system. This seems too much like a novelty than a useful mode of transport

The gondola has a much higher capacity than the every-20-minutes buses. Moving large numbers of people a relatively short distance where they can't or shouldn't take their own cars over a terrain they can't walk is what gondolas specialize in, and have been for decades. It isn't a novelty at all.

 

[Lensman]

The gondola has a much higher capacity than the every-20-minutes buses. Moving large numbers of people a relatively short distance where they can't or shouldn't take their own cars over a terrain they can't walk is what gondolas specialize in, and have been for decades. It isn't a novelty at all.

Just back-of-the-envelope, 5,000 passengers per hour is equivalent to a 94-120 passenger articulated bus departing every minute or minute and a half. But to put this in a more fair perspective, POP and AOA would have separate articulated bus stops and Riviera would have a regular bus. So each of the three stops would have to dispatch a bus every 3 minutes to match the capacity of the Skyliner.

Now the best thing about the gondola system is that this capacity doesn't have much marginal savings by reducing capacity (by slowing the line or by removing gondola cars). So off-peak times will still see the same dispatch interval of about 7 seconds, vs the 20 minute or more off-peak wait for the bus!

 

[marni1971]

I've even heard people complaining about the rail network in Britain and how long it took to get to certain parts of the country even though its much smaller place than here. Also the new Gondola system is going to be a great addition to the property and hopefully gets expanded to connect all the major hotels.

Conversely I took a high speed train from Manchester to London last month and was most impressed.
Currently there are no plans to extend the gondola.

 

[Skibum1970]

The gondola has a much higher capacity than the every-20-minutes buses. Moving large numbers of people a relatively short distance where they can't or shouldn't take their own cars over a terrain they can't walk is what gondolas specialize in, and have been for decades. It isn't a novelty at all.

Yes but the Disney gondolas are the Most Magical Gondolas in the World. They're special and stuff.

In all seriousness, it is very frustrating when you're in line for a bus and it pulls away full without you. You just know that you have to stand and wait for a while on tired legs. Waiting five to ten minutes for gondola cars that are constantly coming and going will feel much better, in my opinion. It's a bit like fooling your brain because there is constant motion and you seem to be moving forward. Then, once on board, you know that you won't stop (or, if so, it will be momentary) and no real traffic congestion to work around.

 

[Goofyernmost]

Yes but the Disney gondolas are the Most Magical Gondolas in the World. They're special and stuff.

In all seriousness, it is very frustrating when you're in line for a bus and it pulls away full without you. You just know that you have to stand and wait for a while on tired legs. Waiting five to ten minutes for gondola cars that are constantly coming and going will feel much better, in my opinion. It's a bit like fooling your brain because there is constant motion and you seem to be moving forward. Then, once on board, you know that you won't stop (or, if so, it will be momentary) and no real traffic congestion to work around.

Just as a guessing prediction here, I don't see any huge lines at all for the Gondola's with the exception of closing and then they won't be that long. As a continuous loading and unloading, like the People Mover, it will not be any real problem. I'm looking forward to seeing how it actually does work, but, logically it seems that it will be quite a good system.

 

[GoofGoof]

Yes but the Disney gondolas are the Most Magical Gondolas in the World. They're special and stuff.

In all seriousness, it is very frustrating when you're in line for a bus and it pulls away full without you. You just know that you have to stand and wait for a while on tired legs. Waiting five to ten minutes for gondola cars that are constantly coming and going will feel much better, in my opinion. It's a bit like fooling your brain because there is constant motion and you seem to be moving forward. Then, once on board, you know that you won't stop (or, if so, it will be momentary) and no real traffic congestion to work around.

There is a very real psychological reaction to waiting for something like a bus with limited capacity. People get anxious hoping they will make it on. Full grown adults who wouldn’t even consider acting anything less than proper in most aspects of life will start to cram in and even sometimes push a little, especially at the resorts where there is less of an organized line. Look at how people act when boarding a plane. They would trample their own mother to get to the front of the line when their group is called to ensure they get their carryon bag in an overhead bin. You can see the stress on people’s faces and they have a guaranteed seat just not guaranteed luggage space.

Having a continuos moving line is much more stress free even if you are in the line for the same amount of time for a bus with limited capacity. Since the gondolas continue indefinitely there are no worries that you won’t make it on like a bus.

 

[Grimley1968]

There is a very real psychological reaction to waiting for something like a bus with limited capacity. People get anxious hoping they will make it on. Full grown adults who wouldn’t even consider acting anything less than proper in most aspects of life will start to cram in and even sometimes push a little, especially at the resorts where there is less of an organized line. Look at how people act when boarding a plane. They would trample their own mother to get to the front of the line when their group is called to ensure they get their carryon bag in an overhead bin. You can see the stress on people’s faces and they have a guaranteed seat just not guaranteed luggage space.

Having a continuos moving line is much more stress free even if you are in the line for the same amount of time for a bus with limited capacity. Since the gondolas continue indefinitely there are no worries that you won’t make it on like a bus.

This hits the nail on the head as to why I prefer any kind of continuous load system versus, well, anything else. As long as the system keeps running, I consider it just about stress free.