News New Gondola Transportation - Disney Skyliner -

flynnibus

Premium Member
I don't care about what can be done -- there is nothing to indicate the Disney is using or designing a system that will be allowing for stationary boarding or variable gondola introduction. All intel is this is a commercial off-the-shelf gondola system.

Moreover, the issues with monorail beam switching is easily alleviated by automating the system (as is the case for the monorail in Las Vegas).

The Vegas monorail is a SHUTTLE system along a SINGLE path - big difference from what is being talked about between parks and 30+ different destinations. You really aren't grasping the deltas between what you are comparing.

But the biggest issue is what you seem to give the gondola pixie dust assumptions based on what the system can do, but refuse to do so based on what the monorail can do. And, the biggest difference is there are actual examples of monorails doing what I'm saying. Not so for your gondola "operating models." Again:

The biggest example is the very customer in question. The fact that Disney hasn't done what you are proposing in more than 45 years in operation. What more evidence do you need? Show us the regional transit that crosses many routes that is all heavy rail? What you are talking about is an advanced metro system like NYC or other top subway systems.

You started this heavy rail introduction because of all your fallacies about how the gondola's worked, and your theories of fixed rail that were false (back to back trains, etc). Don't go throwing pixie dust labels around when you didn't even have a leg to stand on.

There are real reasons not all transportation paths are large heavy rolling stock even tho they provide the greatest capacity per vehicle. That's not the only stat that matters in making a system that is EFFECTIVE for the desired deployment.
 

mmascari

Well-Known Member
The use of parking/maintenance rails for stationary loading has never been done before to my knowledge. The problem is where do you find space to re-inject the cabin on an already closely-spaced line?

Same thing you do in Disney's side loading attractions now... leave gaps.

Personally I think it's just too cumbersome of a process to rely on for this kind of frequency. They'll address the loading problem first I'm sure.

Obviously, you pull out a car after it's been unloaded to create a gap to insert the waiting car into. Keeping the overall line exactly the same spacing. One off, one on, always in a pair.

All those fancy designs on the web show lots of muti-path station options. While one may not be in use today, I'm not sure why a station couldn't be built for a side track.

I understand that today, systems either load onto the line or remove from the line cars in batches typically. That they stop the entire line to allow the switch in the station track. That this same process stopping the entire line is followed when swapping out a cargo car for passenger car. (Although, I swear I saw it done in Vail without stopping the line to swap in and then later out a cargo tray, but that was 20+ years ago, and it makes me feel old. Who knows what I really saw back then.)

I understand that a side track is not in the current plan.

However, I think it's a missed opportunity. A side track that a car is directed to after it's in the station, based on a operator selecting the car to move off the main track should be simple enough. Adding a car back into that gap from a side car, based on an operator selecting to add it back should be simple enough. Having a side track with capacity for say 6 cars, but only holding 2, would give enough space to shuffle out and in for people that virtually stopped slow still isn't slow enough.

The entire restrictions seems to come down to not being able to impact the station track path at all while the line is in motion. If we stopped the entire line to do a swap, it would be easy enough, just operationally poor.

There must be some reason forcing the line stoppage while impacting a station track flow. Perhaps a preemptive caution in case the station track move fails, since more cars are always coming otherwise and the station track needs to be able to receive them when they arrive.

Whatever that reason is, it leads me to believe all those muti-path station options on the web are just a concept and not something real. But, I'm not sure what the real restriction is. Most systems wouldn't need this type of option, so it could just be low demand. But, technologically, it looks simple enough if desired.
 

orky8

Well-Known Member
The Vegas monorail is a SHUTTLE system along a SINGLE path - big difference from what is being talked about between parks and 30+ different destinations. You really aren't grasping the deltas between what you are comparing.



The biggest example is the very customer in question. The fact that Disney hasn't done what you are proposing in more than 45 years in operation. What more evidence do you need? Show us the regional transit that crosses many routes that is all heavy rail? What you are talking about is an advanced metro system like NYC or other top subway systems.

You started this heavy rail introduction because of all your fallacies about how the gondola's worked, and your theories of fixed rail that were false (back to back trains, etc). Don't go throwing pixie dust labels around when you didn't even have a leg to stand on.

There are real reasons not all transportation paths are large heavy rolling stock even tho they provide the greatest capacity per vehicle. That's not the only stat that matters in making a system that is EFFECTIVE for the desired deployment.

Who is talking about taking the monorail to 30 different destinations? I haven't said anything of that nature. But, if we are moving to armchair engineering, the monorail should go to roughly six hub destinations and gondolas (or something similar) should connect the various resorts to one of those six. The monorail should be used to move large numbers of people because it (1) has more capacity and (2) more variability. But, this isn't about armchair engineering. It's about people on this thread, such as yourself, claiming the gondola can/will do things it can't/won't. I got sucked into this debate when @Bender123 compared the monorail to Dumbo and gondola to Haunted Mansion, which I took issue with.
 

flynnibus

Premium Member
@mmascari or just avoid the entire problem by having some gondola's that are super ECV accessible.. The entire problem is around fears of not loading easily. So just nip the problem in the butt and make access better.

We all know Disney is the ECV capital of the world.. Disney does too.. so they might just solve the problem right from the start.
 

MisterPenguin

President of Animal Kingdom
Premium Member
Advantages of a skyliner over a monorail, outside cost, is the same reason why a ride like Haunted Mansion has a massive advantage in throughput over a ride like Dumbo or teacups. For this example, lets say Dumbo is now super Dumbo and has 100 cars. The Haunted Mansion ride is continuously loading and unloading, which means that if you have 100 cars holding four people, you can continuously move 400 people without stopping (or with a minimal stop if there is an issue). With Dumbo, you can now load 400 people, start your ride cycle, unload passengers, reload passengers and restart the cycle. You can spend a very significant time of your service just sitting and doing nothing. During low volume time, Dumbo is still a batch system. If two people load onto the ride and another family just misses it, they are still waiting for the next cycle to start. There is no free capacity after the batch leaves, whether the ride is full or empty, its cycle stays the same and the person has to wait for a new cycle to start. You get to spend five minutes doing nothing because the batch is in progress and nothing will change that.

The problem of batching on Super Dumbo can be easily fixed by having trap doors on each elephant such that when the ride is done, it opens dropping all the riders to bean bags below. Then, you have your queue **above** the ride waiting on their own trap doors. When the riders below are ejected and the seats return to normal, you open the trap doors on the queue and let them drop into the ride. Hit go!
 

MisterPenguin

President of Animal Kingdom
Premium Member
He quoted a dispatch interval of 7.5 seconds with 8 people per gondola. That leaves less than 1 second per person for people to get into the their gondola after the group in front of them gets in. Not realistic.

Let's use extreme cases to help understand:

Case 1: Gondolas dispatch once per second and there are no gondola 'waiting' in the station to board. In this case as a gondola is coming into the station, it whips around the wheel and gives people just one second to board. Not really possible.

Case 2: Gondolas dispatch once per second and there are 100 gondolas 'waiting' in the station to board. In this case, when a gondola enters the station, it gets in the queue to leave. But, there are 99 gondolas ahead of it. They are leaving once per second. The gondola that freshly arrives has to wait 99 seconds before it leaves. It moves at a slow crawl through the station detached from the 'rope'. There's about 40 seconds on one side to disembark; 10 seconds around the wheel, and then 40 seconds on the other side for 8 people to get in. So, just because the gondolas are dispatching once per second, that doesn't necessarily give a gondola in the station just one second to exchange passengers. The extra gondolas waiting in the station are moving at a crawl.

Now, when you change up the numbers you don't need as many gondolas waiting: Dispatch every 7 seconds and have 10 gondolas in the station's queue gives each gondola 70 seconds of a slow crawl before they each jet off.
 

Ripken10

Well-Known Member
Let's use extreme cases to help understand:

Case 1: Gondolas dispatch once per second and there are no gondola 'waiting' in the station to board. In this case as a gondola is coming into the station, it whips around the wheel and gives people just one second to board. Not really possible.

Case 2: Gondolas dispatch once per second and there are 100 gondolas 'waiting' in the station to board. In this case, when a gondola enters the station, it gets in the queue to leave. But, there are 99 gondolas ahead of it. They are leaving once per second. The gondola that freshly arrives has to wait 99 seconds before it leaves. It moves at a slow crawl through the station detached from the 'rope'. There's about 40 seconds on one side to disembark; 10 seconds around the wheel, and then 40 seconds on the other side for 8 people to get in. So, just because the gondolas are dispatching once per second, that doesn't necessarily give a gondola in the station just one second to exchange passengers. The extra gondolas waiting in the station are moving at a crawl.

Now, when you change up the numbers you don't need as many gondolas waiting: Dispatch every 7 seconds and have 10 gondolas in the station's queue gives each gondola 70 seconds of a slow crawl before they each jet off.
You worded that very well. I was sitting here trying to come up with a way for some people here to understand exactly what you just said. That was perfect. For those that have ever been at a ski resort, they get this.

Hey @LiftBlog, did I miss your post about how many wheelchair/ECV/Elderly you had that other evening you worked. I was curious at this answer. I have never been to a ski resort other then in the winter (it actually is hard for me to look at a ski resort with just grass and not snow). But I do know that every skier is not athletic...that is DEFINITELY not the case. Some of the best stories from ski resorts involve things I have seen with "graceful" and "athletic" skiiers getting on gondolas and ski lifts. I still remember a friend trying to get on a gondola forgetting he still had his skiis on (and he wasn't the best skier).
 

Lift Blog

Well-Known Member
You worded that very well. I was sitting here trying to come up with a way for some people here to understand exactly what you just said. That was perfect. For those that have ever been at a ski resort, they get this.

Hey @LiftBlog, did I miss your post about how many wheelchair/ECV/Elderly you had that other evening you worked. I was curious at this answer. I have never been to a ski resort other then in the winter (it actually is hard for me to look at a ski resort with just grass and not snow). But I do know that every skier is not athletic...that is DEFINITELY not the case. Some of the best stories from ski resorts involve things I have seen with "graceful" and "athletic" skiiers getting on gondolas and ski lifts. I still remember a friend trying to get on a gondola forgetting he still had his skiis on (and he wasn't the best skier).

My only gondola shift this week starts in an hour and goes until midnight tonight. I will report back.
 

Kamikaze

Well-Known Member
Furthermore, monorails actually could be very easy to add or remove capacity. The below video shows how quickly a switch (such as to a spur with additional trains on standby) could be used.

Adding a train doesn't increase capacity if it doesn't have a station to stop at and 'take' that capacity. The way WDW's monorail operates at max capacity, adding another train to the line would not decrease wait times because it would result in creating a back up on the line.
 

flynnibus

Premium Member
Adding a train doesn't increase capacity if it doesn't have a station to stop at and 'take' that capacity. The way WDW's monorail operates at max capacity, adding another train to the line would not decrease wait times because it would result in creating a back up on the line.

Half true.. adding trains would increase capacity (if there is space on the line on the train). But as you say it wouldn't really decrease wait times if doing so leads to the system operating less efficiently due to waiting for blocks.

The moral of the story is... Capacity != Throughput One is time dependent, the other is not :) Optimizing throughput often means running at less than 100% capacity so that you can handle anomalies without causing more significant delays.

"Go faster by going slow" they say..
 

Kamikaze

Well-Known Member
Half true.. adding trains would increase capacity (if there is space on the line on the train). But as you say it wouldn't really decrease wait times if doing so leads to the system operating less efficiently due to waiting for blocks.

The moral of the story is... Capacity != Throughput One is time dependent, the other is not :) Optimizing throughput often means running at less than 100% capacity so that you can handle anomalies without causing more significant delays.

"Go faster by going slow" they say..

Fair. People could be on the train thats stopped on the beam. Capacity would be higher. Wouldn't increase the actual amount of riders that completed a trip in an hour.
 

orky8

Well-Known Member
Let's use extreme cases to help understand:

Case 1: Gondolas dispatch once per second and there are no gondola 'waiting' in the station to board. In this case as a gondola is coming into the station, it whips around the wheel and gives people just one second to board. Not really possible.

Case 2: Gondolas dispatch once per second and there are 100 gondolas 'waiting' in the station to board. In this case, when a gondola enters the station, it gets in the queue to leave. But, there are 99 gondolas ahead of it. They are leaving once per second. The gondola that freshly arrives has to wait 99 seconds before it leaves. It moves at a slow crawl through the station detached from the 'rope'. There's about 40 seconds on one side to disembark; 10 seconds around the wheel, and then 40 seconds on the other side for 8 people to get in. So, just because the gondolas are dispatching once per second, that doesn't necessarily give a gondola in the station just one second to exchange passengers. The extra gondolas waiting in the station are moving at a crawl.

Now, when you change up the numbers you don't need as many gondolas waiting: Dispatch every 7 seconds and have 10 gondolas in the station's queue gives each gondola 70 seconds of a slow crawl before they each jet off.


Thank you -- well said. My head struggled with this one, but your illustration is spot on.
 

GCTales

Well-Known Member
You worded that very well. I was sitting here trying to come up with a way for some people here to understand exactly what you just said. That was perfect. For those that have ever been at a ski resort, they get this.

Hey @LiftBlog, did I miss your post about how many wheelchair/ECV/Elderly you had that other evening you worked. I was curious at this answer. I have never been to a ski resort other then in the winter (it actually is hard for me to look at a ski resort with just grass and not snow). But I do know that every skier is not athletic...that is DEFINITELY not the case. Some of the best stories from ski resorts involve things I have seen with "graceful" and "athletic" skiiers getting on gondolas and ski lifts. I still remember a friend trying to get on a gondola forgetting he still had his skiis on (and he wasn't the best skier).


Anyone who has ever watched a warren miller film knows just how ungrateful skiers can be... Not just during the load / unload process...
 

TiggerDad

Well-Known Member
You were saying the same thing. It definitely won't be an eyesore, no?
No, what's going to ruin the skyline of the resort is the giant DVC tower looming over the lake, themed to a place an ocean away from the Caribbean. There have been plenty of pictures posted showing gondolas in the real world Caribbean.
 

marni1971

Park History nut
Premium Member
This is what I have:

6 cars * 80 seats, 45 minute dispatch interval, two sets of six vehicles.

*puts numbers, a white rabbit, and an amethyst amulet in top hat*
*waves magic wand over it* (not that one, ye of dirty mind)
*pulls out 1280*

((6*80)/45*60)*2 = 1280
You're way off.

Cars could take on average 96 guests and cycle time was 32 minutes, with a 24 minute ride time, and 4 minutes each for load and unload.

Sources 1982 WED specification, 1982 SoP and 2015 SoP.
 

Lift Blog

Well-Known Member
Here are some stats from 5:00 pm-midnight last night at one of the gondolas where I work:

1,946 total riders
133 elderly folks
14 strollers
4 wheelchairs
9 people with canes
Tons of small children

1 minute 20 seconds total stoppage time (0.3%)
10 seconds of slow time (0.04%)

This is on a gondola without level walk-in so each wheelchair load/unload requires a stop.
 

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