New DAS System at Walt Disney World 2024

[TrainsOfDisney]

There is no "DOJ/ADA", there's just DOJ. ADA is law, not an agency/organization.

Where did I say it was?

The ADA does exist and clarity within the ADA regarding theme parks would be helpful for all theme park operators.

 

[NotTheOne]

Where did I say it was?

The ADA does exist and clarity within the ADA regarding theme parks would be helpful for all theme park operators.

When you say "DOJ / ADA making it more clear." to me, that is a clear statement that you believe the ADA to be a decision/policy making body, which it is not.

The ADA exists as a law, not as a decision making body. I see people talk about "complaining to the ADA" and I just because there is no such body to contact.

 

[Angel Ariel]

Right, but I was replying to a poster who was talking about entertainment venues.

Even at other entertainment venues around here, I haven't waited in lines as long as what we experience at Disney. Not for NFL or NHL games, concerts, Disney on Ice...my prior post was including entertainment venues in what our experience here is.

 

[Club Cooloholic]

Even at other entertainment venues around here, I haven't waited in lines as long as what we experience at Disney. Not for NFL or NHL games, concerts, Disney on Ice...my prior post was including entertainment venues in what our experience here is.

You haven't been to MetLife Stadium in NJ?

 

[Angel Ariel]

You haven't been to MetLife Stadium in NJ?

Nope - the only true NY team is in western NY not where I live now, so not where I've been referring to - but have been to sold out games there also and haven't had Disney-like waits

 

[Chi84]

Even at other entertainment venues around here, I haven't waited in lines as long as what we experience at Disney. Not for NFL or NHL games, concerts, Disney on Ice...my prior post was including entertainment venues in what our experience here is.

Oh okay. I’m in Chicago and lines at entertainment venues here can be prohibitive.

In any event, I can see how imposing a requirement on businesses to accommodate people by excusing them from waiting in lines can be a problem.

You mention lines of 30 to 40 minutes, but others in this thread have stated that their physical disabilities along with the lack of someone who can accompany them precludes waiting in almost any line.

Businesses understand the requirement to provide access to their goods and services because the DOJ regulations set them out and contain reasonable limits. That’s not true for any obligation to excuse people from being in lines.

 

[Angel Ariel]

You mention lines of 30 to 40 minutes, but others in this thread have stated that their physical disabilities along with the lack of someone who can accompany them precludes waiting in almost any line.

I used 30-40 mins because that has been referenced here consistently as what most consider a "beyond normal" wait at Disney, that's all. I don't mean anything more by it than that. I'm not trying to compare disabilities, as I believe that's less than productive in these conversations. DD has issues with lines, but they are different than someone with an autoimmune disorder like IBD/Chron's.

 

[NotTheOne]

Businesses understand the requirement to provide access to their goods and services because the DOJ regulations set them out and contain reasonable limits. That’s not true for any obligation to excuse people from being in lines.

And to me, this is where theme parks differ significantly from other entertainment venues such as sporting events, concerts, etc.

In those other venues, entering to experience the event is tangential to the actual event itself, i.e., once you're in, you're in. Waiting is not part of the actual "attraction" itself.

But that's not the case at a theme park - waiting in line is part of the fundamental nature of the goods (attractions) being offered. As such, forcing Disney (or any other theme park) to make alterations that fundamentally alter the "goods" being offered could well be seen (and was, in A.L. v. Disney) as being beyond the scope of ADA requirements.

Of course Disney should do all that they can to make attractions accessible for those with disabilities, but I don't believe that any court is going to force them to make accommodations to the point that it negatively impacts, on a consistent basis, the enjoyment of goods for those not using the accommodations, including those who purchase Genie+ (and the new iteration).

There has to be a balance, and until these changes, there wasn't.

 

[Chi84]

And to me, this is where theme parks differ significantly from other entertainment venues such as sporting events, concerts, etc.

In those other venues, entering to experience the event is tangential to the actual event itself, i.e., once you're in, you're in. Waiting is not part of the actual "attraction" itself.

But that's not the case at a theme park - waiting in line is part of the fundamental nature of the goods (attractions) being offered. As such, forcing Disney (or any other theme park) to make alterations that fundamentally alter the "goods" being offered could well be seen (and was, in A.L. v. Disney) as being beyond the scope of ADA requirements.

Of course Disney should do all that they can to make attractions accessible for those with disabilities, but I don't believe that any court is going to force them to make accommodations to the point that it negatively impacts, on a consistent basis, the enjoyment of goods for those not using the accommodations, including those who purchase Genie+ (and the new iteration).

There has to be a balance, and until these changes, there wasn't.

In Disney’s case, not standing in line is an actual product offered for sale. It has a specific value defined by its sale price.

 

[flynnibus]

are lines ubiquitous? Yes. Are lines that are routinely longer than 30-40 mins ubiquitous in day to day life? Not IME. We live in an area of high density population, so it's not like it's not crowded here. there's only one situation where we routinely experience lengths similar to typical Disney waits. Those kinds of waits are not at all typical in day to day life outside the one situation (which is related to disability and I'm not detailing for reasons).

IME...

The DMV...
Airports...
Concerts...
Conventions...

The common thread here? Places where large amounts of people congregate and are funneled through a check or single resource.

 

[Chi84]

IME...

The DMV...
Airports...
Concerts...
Conventions...

The common thread here? Places where large amounts of people congregate and are funneled through a check or single resource.

Outside of the first, premium experiences are sometimes sold that often allow a person to avoid standing in line along with other offered perks.

I don’t have a clear sense of the impact of a paid line-skip system on the issue of disability access.

 

[flynnibus]

Outside of the first, premium experiences are sometimes sold that often allow a person to avoid standing in line along with other offered perks.

I don’t have a clear sense of the impact of a paid line-skip system on the issue of disability access.

I agree with the poster that Disney is 'more extreme' in that waits are long and more frequent... but I have issue when someone advocates that their condition is a hard NO for such lines.. yet they navigate the rest of life w/o similar accommodations. Are they more frequent at Disney? Yes... but the argument isn't typically that people have a problem with accumulated waiting... but rather the experience in a single line/wait. So I don't find the 'Disney is different...' arguments that compelling. If someone has an issue with a 30min expectation to stay in a queue with others... for the most part that should apply to any similar queuing ask.

I don't really see Disney offering a paid line skip as a factor in the discussion about accommodations or not. The only angle it should come up is to help establish a limit on what the business should have to give away, because the system's existence helps establish that the commodity has a value, and the business relies on those sales. So in effect, it provides a path to arguing 'unreasonable' burden if that revenue were impacted too significantly by the requested accommodation.

I see it as more a argument about 'impracticality' of a specific accommodation request.. and not really part of the discussion about if waits are normal, expected, tolerances, etc. So I find it immaterial to the topic of "why does someone need an accommodation at Disney, but not at, some retailer's limited sale" (or whatever queuing situation you want to explore).. which is the current convo I was interjecting to.

Maybe in summary... I find the "paid" point immaterial in the "need" discussion and probably part of a defense in a "what accommodations are reasonable..." discussion.

But there is some convention at least from prior standards. The fact you charge for premium parking isn't an excuse to alter handicap parking spot requirements. It hasn't been a reason to prevent the use of accessible seating in a desirable area, etc. They don't let people argue they can't give an accommodation because it devalues their other product, etc.

I think a business like Disney would stick to the argument they made before... the extreme use of the line bypass has a negative effect on their ability to service it's customers.. irregardless of paid or not paid. The money would just come in to say you can't expect us to REMOVE this paid access to make more room for the disabled... there they would argue that's a fundamental change. The paid aspect just adds gravitas to the point that it's not just preference.. but a material part of the business.

 

[Angel Ariel]

IME...

The DMV...
Airports...
Concerts...
Conventions...

The common thread here? Places where large amounts of people congregate and are funneled through a check or single resource.

Airports already allow for skipping lines, and the comment I was responding to was talking about the impact it would have on other venues to require skipping line access, so considering airports already allow that, I wasn't including them. The once every few years visit required to the DMV isn't something I'd include in ubiquitousness either.

And we haven't had that experience with concerts - whether on our own or with DD, largely because most have had multiple entrances . I have issues with lots of things in this area (traffic at the top of that list), but overall most venues staff very well for lines/security and they move quickly.

I'm not discounting your experiences - but mine are equally valid.

 

[TrainsOfDisney]

The DMV...
Airports...
Concerts...
Conventions...

My DMV you get a number and are called when they are ready.

I travel a lot and rarely have long lines at airports but I do try to avoid particularly busy ones, I’ll fly into MCO but try to fly out of Sanford for example.

Concerts / broadway shows - I’ve never encountered long lines (more than 10 minutes).

Conventions - other than D23 which is a fan convention and not really well organized lines at conventions I attend / work at are a breeze.

Waiting in multiple long lines at Disney is a bit unusual vs. anything else I can think of. Fan conventions like D23 being a close example.

 

[Angel Ariel]

I agree with the poster that Disney is 'more extreme' in that waits are long and more frequent... but I have issue when someone advocates that their condition is a hard NO for such lines.. yet they navigate the rest of life w/o similar accommodations. Are they more frequent at Disney? Yes... but the argument isn't typically that people have a problem with accumulated waiting... but rather the experience in a single line/wait. So I don't find the 'Disney is different...' arguments that compelling. If someone has an issue with a 30min expectation to stay in a queue with others... for the most part that should apply to any similar queuing ask.

I haven't shared much about accommodations we use in real life, as I've been very conscious in these threads to not discuss much about DD's disability so as not to be a roadmap of any kind. All I will share is that she has significant accommodations to get through her daily life, her school life, and anywhere we take her to in terms of an entertainment venue we always research significantly and prepare for before we go, including finding out what accommodations are available to her that we can request from the venue and what we may have to prepare for on our own. Lines, specifically, are just not an issue we've run into with her at non-theme park entertainment venues.

 

[flynnibus]

Airports already allow for skipping lines, and the comment I was responding to was talking about the impact it would have on other venues to require skipping line access, so considering airports already allow that, I wasn't including them. The once every few years visit required to the DMV isn't something I'd include in ubiquitousness either.

But frequency isn't part of the person's inability to cope with the situation.. so is 'every few years' even a meaningful point? To say they can cope as long as it's not something they are asked to do a lot isn't to their favor...

Where is this line skip at the airports? Best I can tell you are at the mercy of the agents to handle you as an exception if waits were an issue.. and clearly people aren't doing it at the same volume as they are at Disney.

And we haven't had that experience with concerts - whether on our own or with DD, largely because most have had multiple entrances . I have issues with lots of things in this area (traffic at the top of that list), but overall most venues staff very well for lines/security and they move quickly.

I'm not discounting your experiences - but mine are equally valid.

I'm not saying yours are invalid - I'm saying they are not necessarily representative of the whole... so care is needed when extrapolating.

Let's not even get started about travel time in vehicles Life at 30mins at a time wouldn't get you very far in my area

 

[NotTheOne]

But frequency isn't part of the person's inability to cope with the situation.. so is 'every few years' even a meaningful point? To say they can cope as long as it's not something they are asked to do a lot isn't to their favor...

Where is this line skip at the airports? Best I can tell you are at the mercy of the agents to handle you as an exception if waits were an issue.. and clearly people aren't doing it at the same volume as they are at Disney.


I'm not saying yours are invalid - I'm saying they are not necessarily representative of the whole... so care is needed when extrapolating.

Let's not even get started about travel time in vehicles Life at 30mins at a time wouldn't get you very far in my area

TSA Cares (I think that's what it's called) is specifically to assist those with disabilities in getting through TSA lines faster. I my cousin uses it whenever they fly for her autistic son.

And I agree, not the volume of Disney, but there is assistance at most airports.

 

[Angel Ariel]

But frequency isn't part of the person's inability to cope with the situation.. so is 'every few years' even a meaningful point? To say they can cope as long as it's not something they are asked to do a lot isn't to their favor...

My state has implemented both appointments and same-day virtual queuing systems (that you can book from home) for the DMV since covid began, and the wait is now averaging less than 15 mins.

Where is this line skip at the airports? Best I can tell you are at the mercy of the agents to handle you as an exception if waits were an issue.. and clearly people aren't doing it at the same volume as they are at Disney.

We check in and print tickets at home, basically only fly southwest so we use skycap or use the kiosks to check our bags and drop them off which has never been a long wait, and TSA precheck is absolutely a line skip equivalent for security. Paid, yes, but the point was whether or not line skip was available not paid vs free. TSACares is also available for other disability accommodations. I'm not sharing where I live here, but I live in a major metropolitan area so these aren't small airports I'm referring to

30 mins doesn't get me far in my area either in the car.And car travel is one of the most difficult things for our family- accommodations are required there too.

also, to be clear, I'm not claiming that my experiences are ubiquitous - but rather using my experiences to show that long lines at entertainment venues aren't necessarily ubiquitous. As has been evidenced by different people in different places having different experiences.

 

[flynnibus]

My DMV you get a number and are called when they are ready.

I travel a lot and rarely have long lines at airports but I do try to avoid particularly busy ones, I’ll fly into MCO but try to fly out of Sanford for example.

Concerts / broadway shows - I’ve never encountered long lines (more than 10 minutes).

Conventions - other than D23 which is a fan convention and not really well organized lines at conventions I attend / work at are a breeze.

Waiting in multiple long lines at Disney is a bit unusual vs. anything else I can think of. Fan conventions like D23 being a close example.

DMV varies by state in how they are done. For instance, here in VA they have moved to a model where you check-in, then get assigned a number, and then wait. However, unsaid is there can be a 30-60min wait to even get to the check-in person A line that is often outside the building too.

Airport security you just rarely can predict... lines can be 5mins, they can be 35mins. Doesn't matter if it's London, New Jersey or Orlando... you're at the mercy of the larger populations happenings.

Concerts... I will give a real world example of The Anthem here in DC... it's a mid size venue.. and the queue forms for multiple blocks before showtime. For other GA venues I've had to wait more than 3hrs before showtime. At the NFL stadiums it's pure body packed... but there the waits tend to be shorter (less than 20mins).

The difference is those with disabilities would generally skip the problem by altering when they come... but that isn't always an option, nor is it really in your control all the time.

Conventions were just an example... because there are plenty outside the Disney bubble where waits are not just the norm - but expected. ComicCon... Magfest is a local one where the check-in lines rival any Disney queue... even with a dozen plus check-in agents.

I don't log when I wait in queues... but if my life never had waits over 30mins... I'd probably tell you I was dreaming

 

[flynnibus]

TSA Cares (I think that's what it's called) is specifically to assist those with disabilities in getting through TSA lines faster. I my cousin uses it whenever they fly for her autistic son.

A program more focused on the screening process - and less about avoiding lines.