New DAS System at Walt Disney World 2024

[NotTheOne]

But frequency isn't part of the person's inability to cope with the situation.. so is 'every few years' even a meaningful point? To say they can cope as long as it's not something they are asked to do a lot isn't to their favor...

Where is this line skip at the airports? Best I can tell you are at the mercy of the agents to handle you as an exception if waits were an issue.. and clearly people aren't doing it at the same volume as they are at Disney.


I'm not saying yours are invalid - I'm saying they are not necessarily representative of the whole... so care is needed when extrapolating.

Let's not even get started about travel time in vehicles Life at 30mins at a time wouldn't get you very far in my area

TSA Cares (I think that's what it's called) is specifically to assist those with disabilities in getting through TSA lines faster. I my cousin uses it whenever they fly for her autistic son.

And I agree, not the volume of Disney, but there is assistance at most airports.

 

[Angel Ariel]

But frequency isn't part of the person's inability to cope with the situation.. so is 'every few years' even a meaningful point? To say they can cope as long as it's not something they are asked to do a lot isn't to their favor...

My state has implemented both appointments and same-day virtual queuing systems (that you can book from home) for the DMV since covid began, and the wait is now averaging less than 15 mins.

Where is this line skip at the airports? Best I can tell you are at the mercy of the agents to handle you as an exception if waits were an issue.. and clearly people aren't doing it at the same volume as they are at Disney.

We check in and print tickets at home, basically only fly southwest so we use skycap or use the kiosks to check our bags and drop them off which has never been a long wait, and TSA precheck is absolutely a line skip equivalent for security. Paid, yes, but the point was whether or not line skip was available not paid vs free. TSACares is also available for other disability accommodations. I'm not sharing where I live here, but I live in a major metropolitan area so these aren't small airports I'm referring to

30 mins doesn't get me far in my area either in the car.And car travel is one of the most difficult things for our family- accommodations are required there too.

also, to be clear, I'm not claiming that my experiences are ubiquitous - but rather using my experiences to show that long lines at entertainment venues aren't necessarily ubiquitous. As has been evidenced by different people in different places having different experiences.

 

[flynnibus]

My DMV you get a number and are called when they are ready.

I travel a lot and rarely have long lines at airports but I do try to avoid particularly busy ones, I’ll fly into MCO but try to fly out of Sanford for example.

Concerts / broadway shows - I’ve never encountered long lines (more than 10 minutes).

Conventions - other than D23 which is a fan convention and not really well organized lines at conventions I attend / work at are a breeze.

Waiting in multiple long lines at Disney is a bit unusual vs. anything else I can think of. Fan conventions like D23 being a close example.

DMV varies by state in how they are done. For instance, here in VA they have moved to a model where you check-in, then get assigned a number, and then wait. However, unsaid is there can be a 30-60min wait to even get to the check-in person A line that is often outside the building too.

Airport security you just rarely can predict... lines can be 5mins, they can be 35mins. Doesn't matter if it's London, New Jersey or Orlando... you're at the mercy of the larger populations happenings.

Concerts... I will give a real world example of The Anthem here in DC... it's a mid size venue.. and the queue forms for multiple blocks before showtime. For other GA venues I've had to wait more than 3hrs before showtime. At the NFL stadiums it's pure body packed... but there the waits tend to be shorter (less than 20mins).

The difference is those with disabilities would generally skip the problem by altering when they come... but that isn't always an option, nor is it really in your control all the time.

Conventions were just an example... because there are plenty outside the Disney bubble where waits are not just the norm - but expected. ComicCon... Magfest is a local one where the check-in lines rival any Disney queue... even with a dozen plus check-in agents.

I don't log when I wait in queues... but if my life never had waits over 30mins... I'd probably tell you I was dreaming

 

[flynnibus]

TSA Cares (I think that's what it's called) is specifically to assist those with disabilities in getting through TSA lines faster. I my cousin uses it whenever they fly for her autistic son.

A program more focused on the screening process - and less about avoiding lines.

 

[Angel Ariel]

I don't log when I wait in queues... but if my life never had waits over 30mins... I'd probably tell you I was dreaming

I also want to be clear - I'm not saying it *never* happens - just that it hasn't been *the norm* for entertainment. traffic I'll be honest, I don't view the same way. For one, DD is strapped in. That makes a huge difference with the waiting issues when she can't actually go anywhere. Doesn't mean we don't have other issues and need other accommodations in the car, but knowing that she's safe and secure and can't go anywhere mitigates a lot

 

[TrainsOfDisney]

Doesn't matter if it's London, New Jersey or Orlando... you're at the mercy of the larger populations happenings.

I disagree - how the airport is set up makes a huge difference. LAX is great compared to Orlando for example. And of course smaller airports like Sanford I’ve never waited in line except for the TSA agent to wake up! Haha jk

The Anthem here in DC... it's a mid size venue..

I’ve worked the anthem! That’s a great room. People wait in lines for GA club shows the way people wait for a Disney parade - you CAN wait for an hour+ for “the best spot” or you can wait for 5 minutes and have an ok spot. Not trying to argue on that point - it’s tricky to find comparisons cause outside of theme parks it really is unusual for me.

 

[flynnibus]

My state has implemented both appointments and same-day virtual queuing systems (that you can book from home) for the DMV since covid began, and the wait is now averaging less than 15 mins.

Yes, but that is now and recent. They do appointments here too if you can pick when you need their services.

We check in and print tickets at home, basically only fly southwest so we use skycap or use the kiosks to check our bags and drop them off which has never been a long wait, and TSA precheck is absolutely a line skip equivalent for security.

Pre-check.. where no one is special, when everyone is special I've actually skipped pre-check more than not lately because the line looks like this... (my photo from 7am on a Friday)

But the worst in an airport is when you have to deal with cancellations/etc. Because you have to deal with agents in the airport for vouchers/etc.. can't just wait on the phone.. there are likely another 100 people like you.. and never enough staff. Sure when you are dealing with your DD you can set her aside to wait, but what if you are the disabled party yourself?

30 mins doesn't get me far in my area either in the car.And car travel is one of the most difficult things for our family- accommodations are required there too.

I think you mean 'modifications'

I think part of the difference here is you are largely talking about caring and coping with a DD - where I'm also looking at the adults who are independent with their own limitations. That is where I'm a bit more doubtful.

 

[Chi84]

Maybe in summary... I find the "paid" point immaterial in the "need" discussion and probably part of a defense in a "what accommodations are reasonable..." discussion.

I completely agree with this. The person alleging an accommodation was insufficient is going to have to prove - with hard evidence - that they were unable to wait in line with the accommodation. There will be no "what if's" involved and how the person negotiates in other aspects of their life will be taken into account, as it was in A.L.

The part of the equation that heavily favors Disney is the "without fundamentally altering the nature of the goods and services offered" part. From what's been said they have proof that the system was being abused and that the abuse increased after the paid system started.

Businesses are required to have a certain number of handicap spots based on defined factors related to the business; they are not required to accommodate any and all people who need those spots. So there would be little financial incentive and great legal risk in eliminating required spots and selling them. If Len's numbers that 3 out of 4 people in the LL for a particular ride were not paying for access, and Disney is in the business of selling LLs, I would expect that Disney would make the argument that the lack of limits on how many people they are required to let in free would, in itself, have a financial impact on the business.

 

[Angel Ariel]

Pre-check.. where no one is special, when everyone is special I've actually skipped pre-check more than not lately because the line looks like this... (my photo from 7am on a Friday)
View attachment 800201

But the worst in an airport is when you have to deal with cancellations/etc. Because you have to deal with agents in the airport for vouchers/etc.. can't just wait on the phone.. there are likely another 100 people like you.. and never enough staff. Sure when you are dealing with your DD you can set her aside to wait, but what if you are the disabled party yourself?

I can see that on a weekday. We don't fly on weekdays much, so that is a major difference. As for vouchers, thankfully we haven't been in a situation where we've needed to deal with that while on a trip with DD. We've been lucky in that regard.

I think you mean 'modifications'

If we're being truly technical, i mean both Modifications to the seatbelt, yep, and also other accommodations available to her.

I think part of the difference here is you are largely talking about caring and coping with a DD - where I'm also looking at the adults who are independent with their own limitations. That is where I'm a bit more doubtful.

I do get that, though I will add that the bigger difference is more that it's usually more than just me when in these situations with DD. Managing an airport one on one with DD, for ex, would be exceedingly difficult, even if things went perfectly with very short waits, due to the nature of her needs and reactions. Sometimes one caregiver isn't enough to meet the need.

 

[C33Mom]

Yes, but that is now and recent. They do appointments here too if you can pick when you need their services.


Pre-check.. where no one is special, when everyone is special I've actually skipped pre-check more than not lately because the line looks like this... (my photo from 7am on a Friday)
View attachment 800201

I was at SeaTac this AM and the pre check line was more than 20m with at least 5 switchbacks. It was awful and I recall thinking “I wish this was a test track LL and I could just opt out and try again later”.

My hope (which I don’t yet have great confidence in, but Len’s numbers are encouraging) is that they are trying to cut waits for people-eater attractions back below 15-20m consistently so that it’s not impossible for those who struggle with medium to long waits to do anything at all without a long wait…and if they get a decent chunk of attractions back to less than 30m waits, they are going to expect most adults who can manage their disabilities at grocery stores, DMV, airport/airplane, traffic jam to either try to make it through 20-30m lines or pay to skip them— and then they will find ways to accommodate us in much longer lines that doesn’t allow the whole party to be constantly waiting in two lines at once.

 

[Figgy1]

IME...

The DMV...
Airports...
Concerts...
Conventions...

The common thread here? Places where large amounts of people congregate and are funneled through a check or single resource.

DMV texted and had somebody bring him in when we were next up, 4 person operation
Airports, heck nope
Concerts small local, outdoor and not often
Conventions nope
Doctor's office 10 minute heads up even for virtual, written into the medical records
Shopping only done at rope drop on slow days
people deal with things the best they can

 

[flynnibus]

I disagree - how the airport is set up makes a huge difference. LAX is great compared to Orlando for example. And of course smaller airports like Sanford I’ve never waited in line except for the TSA agent to wake up! Haha jk

I’ve worked the anthem! That’s a great room. People wait in lines for GA club shows the way people wait for a Disney parade - you CAN wait for an hour+ for “the best spot” or you can wait for 5 minutes and have an ok spot. Not trying to argue on that point - it’s tricky to find comparisons cause outside of theme parks it really is unusual for me.

Great you know the spot... the example in question wasn't GA but Jerry Seinfeld which was setup with seats. About as white bread as it comes The photo won't come across without more local perspective... but the example stood out because it was so unexpected to us. They snaked the line all across the piers opposite the venue, and several blocks down the water front. It was posted as a 930pm show... at 8:56pm this was our view still after waiting in line for awhile and wondering was going on



At 9:10pm - lines had been opened.. but still stuck out across the way in lines...

It only took about 30mins once they opened the doors... but they didn't open the doors until less than 45mins before posted showtime... for a venue that includes drinking and bars

The point of the example was just to show how lines can be unexpected and are just things that you can't always plan around.

The GA example was more examples of concerts... take your pick of examples.. but what you see there is when people talk about how they cope, you often see people make MODIFICATIONS to what they do, rather than necessarily get accommodations to avoid the issue. That's an important distinction... behavior expectation changes... vs having their limitations accommodated by the venue.

 

[Chi84]

Great you know the spot... the example in question wasn't GA but Jerry Seinfeld which was setup with seats. About as white bread as it comes The photo won't come across without more local perspective... but the example stood out because it was so unexpected to us. They snaked the line all across the piers opposite the venue, and several blocks down the water front. It was posted as a 930pm show... at 8:56pm this was our view still after waiting in line for awhile and wondering was going on

View attachment 800206

At 9:10pm - lines had been opened.. but still stuck out across the way in lines...
View attachment 800205
It only took about 30mins once they opened the doors... but they didn't open the doors until less than 45mins before posted showtime... for a venue that includes drinking and bars

The point of the example was just to show how lines can be unexpected and are just things that you can't always plan around.

The GA example was more examples of concerts... take your pick of examples.. but what you see there is when people talk about how they cope, you often see people make MODIFICATIONS to what they do, rather than necessarily get accommodations to avoid the issue. That's an important distinction... behavior expectation changes... vs having their limitations accommodated by the venue.

I do see the frequency of standing in lines as a factor that differentiates theme parks from other venues. It’s not just the length of one line, but having to stand in several long lines one after another, which is the nature of a theme park.

 

[NotTheOne]

I completely agree with this. The person alleging an accommodation was insufficient is going to have to prove - with hard evidence - that they were unable to wait in line with the accommodation. There will be no "what if's" involved and how the person negotiates in other aspects of their life will be taken into account, as it was in A.L.

The part of the equation that heavily favors Disney is the "without fundamentally altering the nature of the goods and services offered" part. From what's been said they have proof that the system was being abused and that the abuse increased after the paid system started.

Businesses are required to have a certain number of handicap spots based on defined factors related to the business; they are not required to accommodate any and all people who need those spots. So there would be little financial incentive and great legal risk in eliminating required spots and selling them. If Len's numbers that 3 out of 4 people in the LL for a particular ride were not paying for access, and Disney is in the business of selling LLs, I would expect that Disney would make the argument that the lack of limits on how many people they are required to let in free would, in itself, have a financial impact on the business.

I will plead guilty now to being a broken record but when we talk about the why behind what Disney has done with these changes, it's wasn't just abuse (which to me, is people outright lying about having a disability in order to get a DAS) but also overuse (people who have a disability but could be accommodated with something other than DAS). Other than that distinction, I agree 100% with your second paragraph.

It appears to me that Disney is drawing the DAS line (in most cases, at least) at a long wait in line causing a manifestation of the disability v. a manifestation happening while in the long line but not caused by waiting in the line itself.

 

[Club Cooloholic]

I do see the frequency of standing in lines as a factor that differentiates theme parks from other venues. It’s not just the length of one line, but having to stand in several long lines one after another, which is the nature of a theme park.

There are people, disabled or not who will never set foot inside a theme park because the idea of standing in line for for an hour for few minutes of fun is insane to them. We won't be getting their input on this forum

 

[Club Cooloholic]

I will plead guilty now to being a broken record but when we talk about the why behind what Disney has done with these changes, it's wasn't just abuse (which to me, is people outright lying about having a disability in order to get a DAS) but also overuse (people who have a disability but could be accommodated with something other than DAS). Other than that distinction, I agree 100% with your second paragraph.

It appears to me that Disney is drawing the DAS line (in most cases, at least) at a long wait in line causing a manifestation of the disability v. a manifestation happening while in the long line but not caused by waiting in the line itself.

I also think at its core. DAS was developed to accommodate those that can absolutely not wait in a line, and more likely can't even really advocate so much being there or not. An adult who independently buys a ticket and made there way into the Magic Kingdom and now says they need DAS is very different in my eyes from a severely autistic child or non verbal mentally compromised adult brother being brought to the park with their family and needing DAS. I realize this isn't everyone's point of view but it does make the delineation in who gets it or not easier to see when applied this way.

 

[Chi84]

I will plead guilty now to being a broken record but when we talk about the why behind what Disney has done with these changes, it's wasn't just abuse (which to me, is people outright lying about having a disability in order to get a DAS) but also overuse (people who have a disability but could be accommodated with something other than DAS). Other than that distinction, I agree 100% with your second paragraph.

It appears to me that Disney is drawing the DAS line (in most cases, at least) at a long wait in line causing a manifestation of the disability v. a manifestation happening while in the long line but not caused by waiting in the line itself.

I’m well aware Disney intended to address overuse; if not it could have done what Universal is doing.

But a system that lends itself to actual abuse, rather than overuse by its intended beneficiaries, is more likely to be found an unreasonable accommodation.

 

[Kingoglow]

i was suggesting they get a little more strict without going to such an extreme where they are denying people with very clear disabilities that were previously approved.

The new system IS Disney getting 'a little more strict'. Time will tell if Disney needs to tighten restrictions even more.

 

[Kingoglow]

Concerts / broadway shows - I’ve never encountered long lines (more than 10 minutes).

This is WILD to me.
Getting into a game or concert at Arrowhead takes 40-60 minutes, at every gate. Heck, getting your car into the parking lot can take an 30-40 itself. Getting out of the stadium and our of the parking lot can easily take 2.5 hours.

 

[Club Cooloholic]

This is WILD to me.
Getting into a game or concert at Arrowhead takes 40-60 minutes, at every gate. Heck, getting your car into the parking lot can take an 30-40 itself. Getting out of the stadium and our of the parking lot can easily take 2.5 hours.

Basically my experience at MetLife 2 weeks ago.

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