New DAS System at Walt Disney World 2024

[Purduevian]

Some. But do we know if that was only DAS or that included Physical disabilities? Or does Mansion load physical disabilities from the exit so they don’t get scanned?

And is it only DAS that gets the blue light or do others get it?

Regarding all the math from a few pages back... I think these are the relevant post (thank you Len):

Lens counting at HM they counted 1,750 people enter the LL in an hour, they also know that ~300 of those are G+ so but this count ~82% of the LL for HM was DAS, Golden Oak, or Rider Swap.



Apparently Len has gotten some confirmation that his numbers are close if not a little low.


Finally official word from Disney... but it's all outdated that GAC was 3.3% of people, but could take up to 30% of TSMM capacity. Also DAS has Tripled in the past 5 years (which I can't find the number but I think Len said this was also low.


So if we combine this data. 3.3%*3= 9.9% minimum now probably have DAS. Also they are taking ~80% of the HM LL in any given hour. I think these are probably conservative numbers to use when trying to look at the effect these DAS changes will have on the Standby and or LL queues.

What I can't see much evidence on (and would be very helpful for our hypotheticals) is average Standby vs LL ratio and the average party size at WDW. @lentesta any help on those 2 numbers?

But do we know if that was only DAS or that included Physical disabilities? Or does Mansion load physical disabilities from the exit so they don’t get scanned? Len counted people entering the LL, so anyone that was using an alternative entrance would not have been counted

And is it only DAS that gets the blue light or do others get it? He couldn't see the color of the light is my understanding.

Overall from what was posted DAS was taking up ~80% of HMs LL while he counted.

 

[Drdcm]

That's infuriating, but also sadly unsurprising. Issues that can be easily observed/verified are harder to fake than ones that are "invisible."

I suppose one benefit to these unending back and forth and what if conversations in these threads is it's making me pay more attention to exactly how DD struggles every day, esp with waiting. She had a 2.5 hr medical appt today - just a normal specialty follow-up, and I felt like I'd finished a marathon by the time we got home. It's easy to downplay/overlook how difficult things are when they're your daily reality.

That sounds tough. That’s a long appt!

 

[TrainsOfDisney]

Len counted people entering the LL, so anyone that was using an alternative entrance would not have been counted

So guests using wheelchairs, etc. don’t scan in at the LL entrance? I think they do at DL so maybe that’s where my confusion is coming.

Overall from what was posted DAS was taking up ~80% of HMs LL while he counted.

No…. IF we know for a fact what the genie+ number is and we know that nobody else was given LL as guest compensation, etc. during that time - then we know around 80% was a mix of DAS, Rider Swap, Golden Oak, and Club 33 as well correct?

 

[Drdcm]

After much observation and discussion… here’s my take.

I’m not a fan of DAS because too many people are using it nowadays. BUT, it isn’t all the people using it that bother me. I don’t like it because it doesn’t work and perpetuates the issue of long lines and overcrowding popular attractions. The more people that use DAS, the longer the lines get everywhere and the fewer people can tolerating waiting in any attraction’s line. Therefore forcing more people to use DAS and so on.

I don’t think tons of people are deliberately faking. Its use has exploded since 2019, which coincides with many cuts and reductions in operations. Not to mention G+. I haven’t seen more disability applications or more people faking at work, so I don’t really have any reason to believe that more people have become lying scumbags.

Maybe genie+ is the culprit, but I’m rather optimistic about humanity in general and don’t really believe a bunch of people have suddenly thrown morality out the window for the sake of a 30$ add on. It really is a tough sell to me that’s the source of the influx, and I really haven’t come across anyone willing to acknowledge they have lied in that way - and people tell me some of their darkest secrets because they are a source of shame.

I think the core issue is the range of disabilities pushing people to apply DAS has widened because the ability to wait in line and pace your day out have been severely hampered by lack of capacity, fewer non-ride things to do, and shortened park hours. In short everyone is trying to do the same thing at the same time with less time to do so. This is a mismanagement related issue that has nothing to do with DAS itself. It’s the product of poor planning. Easier said than done.

I am not judging people for using DAS. I’m not saying DAS isn’t an appropriate accommodation. I’m not accusing people of faking or embellishing. I just think DAS allows Disney to perpetuate and worsen an already bad situation and this new change isn’t going to make much of a difference because they didn’t fix the underlying problem.

 

[DisneyCane]

One anecdote I will contribute is that professionally I come across way more people trying to fake cognitive/psych disabilities than other types of physical issues - chronic pain is up there too. I would bet money that’s the case at Disney and am interested to see how this plays out.

In talking to a couple of ex military members playing poker a couple of months ago, they said that a huge problem in the military is people faking mental disabilities to get discharged with benefits. Now, I don't know how "huge" it is but I've spoken to ex military members in the past and this issue was never mentioned before.

 

[Touchdown]

This was from 1:30 this afternoon, and it’s a much better day. Tues-Thur has been brutal with significant improvements on the weekends.

 

[Chip Chipperson]

So guests using wheelchairs, etc. don’t scan in at the LL entrance? I think they do at DL so maybe that’s where my confusion is coming.

No…. IF we know for a fact what the genie+ number is and we know that nobody else was given LL as guest compensation, etc. during that time - then we know around 80% was a mix of DAS, Rider Swap, Golden Oak, and Club 33 as well correct?

Len also said that someone at Disney told him his numbers were close but a little low, so that would eliminate the arguments that the line was due to makeup passes for a ride being down. And the other potential causes mentioned are tiny in comparison to DAS, which is further backed up by the insider telling him his figures were low.

 

[Chi84]

Correct. The numbers from Disney during the GAC case were for a family ride when DHS only had 1 family ride. It’s really unfair to use them as an example.

There was so much more evidence presented to the district court than just that ride. 469 F.Supp.3d 1280 (M.D. Fla. 2020.

 

[DisneyHead123]

After much observation and discussion… here’s my take.

I’m not a fan of DAS because too many people are using it nowadays. BUT, it isn’t all the people using it that bother me. I don’t like it because it doesn’t work and perpetuates the issue of long lines and overcrowding popular attractions. The more people that use DAS, the longer the lines get everywhere and the fewer people can tolerating waiting in any attraction’s line. Therefore forcing more people to use DAS and so on.

I don’t think tons of people are deliberately faking. Its use has exploded since 2019, which coincides with many cuts and reductions in operations. Not to mention G+. I haven’t seen more disability applications or more people faking at work, so I don’t really have any reason to believe that more people have become lying scumbags.

Maybe genie+ is the culprit, but I’m rather optimistic about humanity in general and don’t really believe a bunch of people have suddenly thrown morality out the window for the sake of a 30$ add on. It really is a tough sell to me that’s the source of the influx, and I really haven’t come across anyone willing to acknowledge they have lied in that way - and people tell me some of their darkest secrets because they are a source of shame.

I think the core issue is the range of disabilities pushing people to apply DAS has widened because the ability to wait in line and pace your day out have been severely hampered by lack of capacity, fewer non-ride things to do, and shortened park hours. In short everyone is trying to do the same thing at the same time with less time to do so. This is a mismanagement related issue that has nothing to do with DAS itself. It’s the product of poor planning. Easier said than done.

I am not judging people for using DAS. I’m not saying DAS isn’t an appropriate accommodation. I’m not accusing people of faking or embellishing. I just think DAS allows Disney to perpetuate and worsen an already bad situation and this new change isn’t going to make much of a difference because they didn’t fix the underlying problem.

My take is that there are:

1. Genuine rises in the rates of disabilities

2. Big increases in disability awareness with the advent of the internet (I frequent parent support boards sometimes and a very common theme is that parents get diagnosed as neurodiverse after their child is, because they simply didn't recognize the symptoms. Many people have a big "Aha!" moment about quirky behavior that has been in their family for a long time.)

3. A different attitude about disabilities. I grew up in the 80s where it wasn't that uncommon for broken bones to get missed because parents told kids to stop whining, they weren't taking them to the doctor for "every little thing". Kids with milder issues were often just labeled problem children and left to languish. Now support is much more plentiful.

Having said that - I do think that cheating is probably going on as well. I was at a local festival recently and paid for a wristband (for certain paid attractions) for my son, who was walking around with his dad. I was exasperated because they wouldn't just hand me the wristband, they made me go locate my son and bring him back so they could personally put it on. The woman was apologetic and explained it's because people will try to make the wristbands big so they can slip them on and off and use them for multiple people. That never would have occurred to me but it just reminded me that yeah, that kind of thing is everywhere. It's why Target only lets you use self-checkout at certain times now.

 

[Drdcm]

In talking to a couple of ex military members playing poker a couple of months ago, they said that a huge problem in the military is people faking mental disabilities to get discharged with benefits. Now, I don't know how "huge" it is but I've spoken to ex military members in the past and this issue was never mentioned before.

It’s a problem in that many people try, but few people actually succeed at getting any enhanced benefits if there isn’t hard evidence of the relation to their military service. The fakers are relatively easy to weed out.

 

[RamblinWreck]

After much observation and discussion… here’s my take.

I’m not a fan of DAS because too many people are using it nowadays. BUT, it isn’t all the people using it that bother me. I don’t like it because it doesn’t work and perpetuates the issue of long lines and overcrowding popular attractions. The more people that use DAS, the longer the lines get everywhere and the fewer people can tolerating waiting in any attraction’s line. Therefore forcing more people to use DAS and so on.

I don’t think tons of people are deliberately faking. Its use has exploded since 2019, which coincides with many cuts and reductions in operations. Not to mention G+. I haven’t seen more disability applications or more people faking at work, so I don’t really have any reason to believe that more people have become lying scumbags.

Maybe genie+ is the culprit, but I’m rather optimistic about humanity in general and don’t really believe a bunch of people have suddenly thrown morality out the window for the sake of a 30$ add on. It really is a tough sell to me that’s the source of the influx, and I really haven’t come across anyone willing to acknowledge they have lied in that way - and people tell me some of their darkest secrets because they are a source of shame.

I think the core issue is the range of disabilities pushing people to apply DAS has widened because the ability to wait in line and pace your day out have been severely hampered by lack of capacity, fewer non-ride things to do, and shortened park hours. In short everyone is trying to do the same thing at the same time with less time to do so. This is a mismanagement related issue that has nothing to do with DAS itself. It’s the product of poor planning. Easier said than done.

I am not judging people for using DAS. I’m not saying DAS isn’t an appropriate accommodation. I’m not accusing people of faking or embellishing. I just think DAS allows Disney to perpetuate and worsen an already bad situation and this new change isn’t going to make much of a difference because they didn’t fix the underlying problem.

I agree with a lot of what you said but, for a family of 4 for a weeklong trip, it’s not a $30 add on.

It’s an $840 add on. And I can see a lot of people wanting to avoid that.

 

[Purduevian]

No…. IF we know for a fact what the genie+ number is and we know that nobody else was given LL as guest compensation, etc. during that time - then we know around 80% was a mix of DAS, Rider Swap, Golden Oak, and Club 33 as well correct?

We've been counting the number of guests entering both the standby line and the Lightning Lane, per hour, at key attractions.

We've seen instances where the number of guests entering the LL is:

• Equal to or greater than the number entering the standby line
• More than half of the attraction's hourly capacity

For example, at Haunted Mansion we counted roughly 1,750 guests entering the LL line in one hour, and slightly less than that entering the standby line. None of them - zero - appeared to be VIP tours.

We also think that the number of G+ reservations sold by Disney for HM is not more than 300 per hour.

So there's ~1,450 guests that are somehow using the LL line. None of them were VIP tours.

Some of them could reasonably be rider swap. But HM isn't a roller coaster and there's no height limit, so I'd expect that rider swap number to be super low.

Thank you for all you do to gather this information. I am curious if you will reveal why you think there are ~300 G+ per hour?

I don't expect to be an extreme number, but don't golden oak and club 33 get any time LL to attractions outside of the G+ system?

I mean, the community of "third-party software developers for Disney park stuff" is relatively small. I've been around for a while, so I try to be a (reasonably) good steward of that group. You meet people and have interesting conversations.



My lawyer says I don't remember.

It seems like Golden Oak and Club 33 could affect that number, but I also both aired on the side of caution with some numbers (numbers say 82% of the LL was NOT G+)

 

[Fido Chuckwagon]

It seems like Golden Oak and Club 33 could affect that number, but I also both aired on the side of caution with some numbers (numbers say 82% of the LL was NOT G+)

Golden Oak and Club 33 are a rounding error.

 

[Drdcm]

I think you are way too optimistic.

Remember, we are talking about an environment people obsess about. Populations that visit not just many times a year, but even many times a month. You're talking about populations that will knowingly allow a guide to make a business out of cutting lines.. as long as they benefit. You're talking about populations that knowingly cheat simple parking fees. You're talking about populations that will make a meal out of a toppings bar...

This isn't a social experiment of 'Would you kick a homeless guy you passed on the street?' - You're talking about people who are deeply entrenched with the product, generally have high repeat use, and the tradeoff being discussed is a quite significant personal benefit.

It's the perfect example of what people believe to be a 'victimless crime' that they individually can greatly benefit from. And some where even taking it as far as exploiting it to make money. That's outright exploitation... yet people did it with a smile.

The Genie bit took away 'unlimited FP' and creates a big shift in how people look at the lines. That's just gas on the fire... but the underlying ethical failures have been there all along and en mass. People before would think they are getting the 'premium' experience with FP.. even if they didn't realize FP really wasn't the 'best'... they were still able to do better than standby. Now.. that has shifted away from them, creating more opportunity.

Add in things like greater social media penetration... greater awareness of autism topics... the great expansion of what spectrum inclusion has been... expansion of 'inclusion', etc. And you get a bunch of people who maybe were fringe before, jump right in now and rethink their position and entitlement.

I think we agree, but our perspective is different. The nuance is that in terms of motivation, I don’t think these people see themselves as cheaters or liars. I think peoples capacity to handle waiting gets worse and worse as conditions worsen. The other factors you mentioned are likely contributing to that cognitive shift.

It’s hard to describe, but let’s just say we’re on the same page. I don’t really disagree with any of your points.

 

[Drdcm]

I agree with a lot of what you said but, for a family of 4 for a weeklong trip, it’s not a $30 add on.

It’s an $840 add on. And I can see a lot of people wanting to avoid that.

Sure i think it’s just two ways of thinking of the issue. I see genie+ as a failure which I lump into op shortcomings that just contributes to long waits and dissatisfaction. I think it’s a bad product because it’s a bad product, not because of the cost.

 

[DoubleSwitchback]

The nuance is that in terms of motivation, I don’t think these people see themselves as cheaters or liars. I think peoples capacity to handle waiting gets worse and worse as conditions worsen.

I think you're right. I wouldn't be surprised if at most, say, 1% of DAS users consider themselves to be cheaters, liars, or abusers, even under the old approval regime (not even the "tour guides"!). Heck, 70% of Americans are overweight or obese, and that alone probably comes with heat sensitivity. I think the combo of "I'm miserable standing in line" and "Disney wouldn't have given me this if I wasn't supposed to have it" justifies a lot of internal rationalization.

 

[Kingoglow]

As someone who thinks DAS was abused to an unsustainable level and the changes were warranted, the one big issue in all of this seems to be a lack of training and consistency about the "replacement" options. People are being told different things from ride to ride. Someone may be able to get a RTQ for themselves, as they're traveling alone with just a minor child, while at another ride they are being told the minor child must wait in the queue while the disabled person waits alone.

Feels like the DAS part of it was well trained and the game plan was ready to go, but they dropped the budget ball on the park ops side.

This is because all the ques are different, they expet different levels of investment from guests. Also all DAS users are different. There is no one accommodation that will blanket cover all guests, all disabilities and all ride ques. Therefore Disney has a few different accommodations in place at different rides for different needs; which I think is reasonable.

 

[dreamfinder912]

A rise in disabilities doesn't mean a commensurate rise in the needs for DAS.

More people diagnosed with Type 1 diabetes? OK, but not everyone (or even most, I would venture) need a DAS just because they have T1D.

More people diagnosed with autism? OK, but not everyone with autism needs a DAS just because they're autistic.

There's also the function of g+ vs fp+ to consider. A lot of folks who could get by using fp+ can't with g+ and had to ask for help. I'm not saying shady people don't exist, just that there's more than a cost difference between g+ and fp+

 

[DisneyHead123]

A rise in disabilities doesn't mean a commensurate rise in the needs for DAS.

More people diagnosed with Type 1 diabetes? OK, but not everyone (or even most, I would venture) need a DAS just because they have T1D.

More people diagnosed with autism? OK, but not everyone with autism needs a DAS just because they're autistic.

I'm not understanding your point. If the percentage of people with a given disability who needs DAS remains static, and the number of people with that disability grows, the percentage of people who need DAS will increase.

I mean if the percentage of people with a given disability who needed DAS went down as overall rates of that disability increased, what you are saying would be true. But I see no reason to think that would be the case.

 

[NotTheOne]

There's also the function of g+ vs fp+ to consider. A lot of folks who could get by using fp+ can't with g+ and had to ask for help. I'm not saying shady people don't exist, just that there's more than a cost difference between g+ and fp+

There are some people in this boat I'm sure, but I don't believe those guests would account for the explosion in DAS usage over the past few years.

Reading on the other sites and people complaining about how they've had DAS for years and have now been rejected...amputees, back problems, joint pain, fatigue, etc. It's clear that Disney completely lost control of the entire system.