New DAS System at Walt Disney World 2024

[Drdcm]

I would sum up your view as 'the audience in need is growing' in part to the new extenuating factors of what it means to experience the parks.

While I can agree that element would exist... I don't think it covers the bulk of the change in usage that were observed. Visiting the parks hasn't changed that much - these populations weren't being pushed into being park commandos by operational changes. The folks that took things slowly, by choice or need, still are going to do that. That audience tends to book for extended stays knowing that's their style.

IMO what has changed is multiple factors including...

• The expansion and addressing of what I will lump (very poorly BTW) under 'spectrum disorders'. This has a multiplying effect because people that otherwise would have just considered their kids conditions something individual... they now get to stake claim to something more recognized, and in so gets attached to other larger things.. like being labeled a 'disability'.. and what comes along with that
• The societal shifts towards inclusion and pushing acceptance of that as the default expectation has made it so being labeled 'disabled' isn't as much a scarlet letter as it used to be. As such, many more people are willing to be more open about their issues, and thus be open to calling themselves 'disabled' or willing to accept help
• The expansion of services in schools is leading to a lot more people being diagnosed, and in turn a lot more people exposed to, and learning what accommodations can be for them. Instead of individually suffering, the expansion of accommodations in school (vs the old methods of special education) has effectively 'main streamed' accommodations to many that in years prior would never really been exposed to that kind of individualized opportunity. People are being exposed to what it means to have accommodations in much higher numbers than in generations prior

So those points together mean you have a lot more people willing and able to label their conditions as disabilities.. a society that is shifting to make it so someone isn't looked down upon who is labeled as having a disability... and whole audiences getting exposed to what individual accommodations can be through programs like IEPs. Now you have a whole new generation of parents and children who have lived through this and now have a new baseline expectation of how things should be in terms of being recognized, acceptance, and entitlements.

Combine that with the expansion of what is covered as a disability for accommodations. This started 20+ years ago when the ADA was clarified to not be limited to physical disabilities, but has been accelerating more and more as the aforementioned societal shift about inclusion is happening... combined with a surge in the population now considered as having a disability.. And you can see a huge growth in the size of your customer base who is now informed enough to SEEK OUT accommodations... not just suffer in silence.

Now take on the same societal acceptance of 'disability' and inclusion and people that may have otherwise been suffering individually from physical alliments but were not willing to put their issues out in public, but are more willing to now.

And that's just the population that IS SUPPOSED to be covered... You basically have a shift in the expectation of your customers and a huge growth in the size of that audience.

Then you have your grey area or cheaters....

While society has made inclusion something that is to be expected.. we also have been tolerating more and more selfish behavior with greater risks to standing up to people. This creates the opportunity for people to worse humans with less fear of repercussions. That opportunity is just undeniable to many. Why would someone with a normal job and family become a porch pirate on a whim? Because the temptation is too strong with basically zero fear of repercussions.

It's similar here... the temptation of what you gain is just too powerful with almost zero risk. Add that to the society embracing inclusion.. and there is even LESS negatives than before of being seen this way. And lying? Who are they are to challenge me? The selfish and 'hands off' expectations that are so common now basically creates safe harbors for this bad behavior to flourish. The 'barrier to entry' is lower, and people's attitudes make them care less about the morality of what they are doing.

Add in Disney's extreme customer service, and extreme hands-off attitude towards customers.. and you have a utopia for those willing to turn off that morality check ... because its a victimless crime and what recourse would they face? No one dare stand up to them... because that's not cool anymore either.

Then taking away FP just throws gas on that fire.. adding people thinking its just getting back what they thought they were entitled to in the first place, etc.


All very long... but I don't think it's Disney that really spurred this change en large... It's what society is doing and that shift has overloaded Disney's prior approach to things. The G+ vs FP thing is gas... but it's not the spark, nor is it the one conditioning people before they even get to a Disney park.

That’s a fair take. I didn’t comment on society as a whole becoming less and less tolerant of discomfort (some would call this heightened awareness) - something that is assuredly happening - but I think that’s contributing a lot to the situation.

I did see an extreme decline in stress management and just general tolerability of everyday BS during and after the pandemic.

 

[NotTheOne]

I'm not understanding your point. If the percentage of people with a given disability who needs DAS remains static, and the number of people with that disability grows, the percentage of people who need DAS will increase.

I mean if the percentage of people with a given disability who needed DAS went down as overall rates of that disability increased, what you are saying would be true. But I see no reason to think that would be the case.

Should have stated this earlier, my bad...

There is no such thing as a "given disability who needs DAS".

 

[Drdcm]

My take is that there are:

1. Genuine rises in the rates of disabilities

2. Big increases in disability awareness with the advent of the internet (I frequent parent support boards sometimes and a very common theme is that parents get diagnosed as neurodiverse after their child is, because they simply didn't recognize the symptoms. Many people have a big "Aha!" moment about quirky behavior that has been in their family for a long time.)

3. A different attitude about disabilities. I grew up in the 80s where it wasn't that uncommon for broken bones to get missed because parents told kids to stop whining, they weren't taking them to the doctor for "every little thing". Kids with milder issues were often just labeled problem children and left to languish. Now support is much more plentiful.

Having said that - I do think that cheating is probably going on as well. I was at a local festival recently and paid for a wristband (for certain paid attractions) for my son, who was walking around with his dad. I was exasperated because they wouldn't just hand me the wristband, they made me go locate my son and bring him back so they could personally put it on. The woman was apologetic and explained it's because people will try to make the wristbands big so they can slip them on and off and use them for multiple people. That never would have occurred to me but it just reminded me that yeah, that kind of thing is everywhere. It's why Target only lets you use self-checkout at certain times now.

For what it’s worth, The first link is for the CDC showing an increase in intellectual disabilities diagnosed in children between 2019 and 2021. About 10% increase but absolute numbers was just a 1% change. No change in Autism or ADHD diagnoses.

Products - Data Briefs - Number 473 - July 2023

National Center for Health Statistics

www.cdc.gov

The second link is to a Washington post article noting that Disney reports a 300% increase in DAS requests since 2019.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/travel/2024/04/11/disney-disability-access-service-das/

Now the cdc data is just for kids, but I think it’s probably safe to assume there is more going on than just awareness and better diagnosis. Adult disability diagnoses haven’t increased 3x in the last few years. I would have noticed because I do the diagnosing.

 

[jennab55]

After much observation and discussion… here’s my take.

I’m not a fan of DAS because too many people are using it nowadays. BUT, it isn’t all the people using it that bother me. I don’t like it because it doesn’t work and perpetuates the issue of long lines and overcrowding popular attractions. The more people that use DAS, the longer the lines get everywhere and the fewer people can tolerating waiting in any attraction’s line. Therefore forcing more people to use DAS and so on.

I don’t think tons of people are deliberately faking. Its use has exploded since 2019, which coincides with many cuts and reductions in operations. Not to mention G+. I haven’t seen more disability applications or more people faking at work, so I don’t really have any reason to believe that more people have become lying scumbags.

Maybe genie+ is the culprit, but I’m rather optimistic about humanity in general and don’t really believe a bunch of people have suddenly thrown morality out the window for the sake of a 30$ add on. It really is a tough sell to me that’s the source of the influx, and I really haven’t come across anyone willing to acknowledge they have lied in that way - and people tell me some of their darkest secrets because they are a source of shame.

I think the core issue is the range of disabilities pushing people to apply DAS has widened because the ability to wait in line and pace your day out have been severely hampered by lack of capacity, fewer non-ride things to do, and shortened park hours. In short everyone is trying to do the same thing at the same time with less time to do so. This is a mismanagement related issue that has nothing to do with DAS itself. It’s the product of poor planning. Easier said than done.

I am not judging people for using DAS. I’m not saying DAS isn’t an appropriate accommodation. I’m not accusing people of faking or embellishing. I just think DAS allows Disney to perpetuate and worsen an already bad situation and this new change isn’t going to make much of a difference because they didn’t fix the underlying problem.

I’d say yes and no…. For a family who comes once a year or less often adding G+ to their trip probably won’t be THAT big a deal. I bet the amount of APs on DAS did increase though because they do not want to pay every time they visit the park (could be multiple times a week). Not saying the APs are lying, but I bet that is where the large increase happened.

 

[Splash4eva]

being sarcastic

Ohhh my bad… sorry the heat is unbearable. Expected but still lol

 

[Chi84]

For what it’s worth, The first link is for the CDC showing an increase in intellectual disabilities diagnosed in children between 2019 and 2021. About 10% increase but absolute numbers was just a 1% change. No change in Autism or ADHD diagnoses.

Products - Data Briefs - Number 473 - July 2023

National Center for Health Statistics

www.cdc.gov

The second link is to a Washington post article noting that Disney reports a 300% increase in DAS requests since 2019.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/travel/2024/04/11/disney-disability-access-service-das/

Now the cdc data is just for kids, but I think it’s probably safe to assume there is more going on than just awareness and better diagnosis. Adult disability diagnoses haven’t increased 3x in the last few years. I would have noticed because I do the diagnosing.

The difference is that the CDC is able to verify the data regarding disabilities.

I understand the spirit behind the ADA providing that businesses should accommodate people with disabilities without inquiring into the nature and extent of the disability or requiring proof. From reading these threads, I’m aware that it’s different in other countries.

But for many reasons, including those well-articulated by @flynnibus, the inability to inquire/verify does not work when it comes to people requesting to skip conventional lines at Disney.

The best solution would be for the DOJ to issue regulations covering this type of accommodation but I doubt that will happen.

 

[Drdcm]

The difference is that the CDC is able to verify the data regarding disabilities.

I understand the spirit behind the ADA providing that businesses should accommodate people with disabilities without inquiring into the nature and extent of the disability or requiring proof. From reading these threads, I’m aware that it’s different in other countries.

But for many reasons, including those well-articulated by @flynnibus, the inability to inquire/verify does not work when it comes to people requesting to skip conventional lines at Disney.

The best solution would be for the DOJ to issue regulations covering this type of accommodation but I doubt that will happen.

That and the fact that the diagnosis is objective and the ability to wait in line is arguably subjective in many cases.

It becomes a slippery slope. Personally, I’m not capable of waiting in a 90min line, I get anxious. I have both ADHD anxiety but wouldn’t call it a disability. Is it reasonable to make the case that I need DAS now in order to experience those attractions with really long waits?

Short answer is no, but others might not see it that way.

 

[flynnibus]

That and the fact that the diagnosis is objective and the ability to wait in line is arguably subjective in many cases.

It becomes a slippery slope. Personally, I’m not capable of waiting in a 90min line, I get anxious. I have both ADHD anxiety but wouldn’t call it a disability. Is it reasonable to make the case that I need DAS now in order to experience those attractions with really long waits?

Ergo the problem - and one of the many counter points brought up in these accommodation discussions... Should 'avoiding waits' even be a real accommodation? The judge's dialog in the prior GAC case made a lot of points to say no.. highlighting other times and places the person can handle waits so it wasn't really a necessity for that individual.

In my personal belief.. I think it makes sense to say 'ok, this physical space is incompatible for you, so how can we accommodate you' - but I am less favorable to arguments for 'I need to be able to bypass the queue'.

I think Disney offering a 'no wait' option is a way to address someone that may have stamina issues... verses say.. something that provides relief.. like sitting. Basically if you are limited to 15mins of standing... I can either give you an option that isn't standing... or just reduce the time you stand to be less than 15mins (by giving you boarding priority). Obviously the option of boarding priority has more scaling issues and is more ripe for people it.

I think a more sustainable approach would be how to address the physical limitations of someone 'existing' in the queue space by providing alternate methods to queue... and situations where someone just argues "I can't handle waits" -- argue the system really can't sustain that. Waits are a normal part of life - it shoudn't be Disney (or any single business') responsibility to have to eliminate that. In effect, that's what Disney did in the GAC lawsuit... but where Disney has err'd (IMO) is by having one size fits all. Clearly they've taken a step towards fixing that with the new system.

Maybe to some this sounds like splitting hairs... but I think it's significant. The idea of bypassing a queue as a means to side-step other maybe more varied options... is very different from allowing bypassing a queue because someone can't function with waits/delays.

Disney had a magic bullet for addressing most concerns by offering a line bypass in GAC... and took it too frequently. Then with DAS... again Disney caved and just gave people the common answer rather than tailoring. Now, for the first time in a long tme, Disney is trying to offer more than one option. But pushing this decision point to CMs staffing the attractions is a bad bad bad choice.

I think Disney should be addressing queuing with it's queue policies first...

• allow for mobility and stamina aides in queues
• allow for food or beverage in queues for those who need it
• allow for use of shade tools for those who need it
• allow someone who has an emergency the ability to leave the queue - but give them a time bound return to reenter at merge/exit/attraction-specific. If you can't handle the time limit, goto First Aid or GR to get a return pass. I am not obligated to avoid you losing wait time... just as a courtesy I don't want you to be punished significantly. (I would also enact ways to limit the party size TBD)
• retain rider switch but with limits
• allow for alternate standing areas in pre-shows for those who struggle with people density
• someone who can't get up and down frequently (standing to sitting) and can't sit in a mobility device..or for whatever reason couldn't reasonable expect to sustain 60min waits, as a last resort you let them have a return time equal to standby - but be excluded from other queued attractions in some way

Most of that is already done.. but it has a couple common themes

• It doesn't accommodate someone who can't handle crowds in general - that's a bridge too far
• It doesn't allow for skipping the queue space by default
• it doesn't treat leaving the queue unexpectedly as a zero-pain event
• it would put constraints on things like return to queue and/or group sizes

Ones I am not so sure of how to address without giving away the cow
- someone who believes they need AC and can't wait outdoors
- someone who would argue against dealing with people density in a queue in general

Other possible systems might include making a 'leave the queue' thing something that only allows return via electronic tracking... limiting it's overall use. And requiring exception handling if someone uses it too frequently.

I welcome people tearing into my proposal too

 

[Splash4eva]

Boy, if it really is just that there are so many people with the Pixie Pass (who can only go during the week, but can use it during the summer when kids are off), it really seems like Disney is underpricing the Pixie Pass relative to the other AP tiers.

Im at the MK today and i cant recall it being this “empty/slower side” if any of my trips. Well beyond manageable thats for sure

 

[Chi84]

Ergo the problem - and one of the many counter points brought up in these accommodation discussions... Should 'avoiding waits' even be a real accommodation? The judge's dialog in the prior GAC case made a lot of points to say no.. highlighting other times and places the person can handle waits so it wasn't really a necessity for that individual.

In my personal belief.. I think it makes sense to say 'ok, this physical space is incompatible for you, so how can we accommodate you' - but I am less favorable to arguments for 'I need to be able to bypass the queue'.

I think Disney offering a 'no wait' option is a way to address someone that may have stamina issues... verses say.. something that provides relief.. like sitting. Basically if you are limited to 15mins of standing... I can either give you an option that isn't standing... or just reduce the time you stand to be less than 15mins (by giving you boarding priority). Obviously the option of boarding priority has more scaling issues and is more ripe for people it.

Are you limiting this accommodation to stamina issues stemming from a disability?

 

[DisneyHead123]

Should have stated this earlier, my bad...

There is no such thing as a "given disability who needs DAS".

That's not what I'm saying. I'm saying the percentage of people with a given disability who generally need DAS. So if it's generally 10% for people with autism (made up number for the purposes of example), and the total number of people with autism rises, that 10% number will also get larger.

 

[TrainsOfDisney]

It seems like Golden Oak and Club 33 could affect that number, but I also both aired on the side of caution with some numbers (numbers say 82% of the LL was NOT G+)

There’s a lot of assumptions and maybes in those numbers.

The big question I have is without the data we don’t know how many of those could be guest recovery or “free passes” in addition to the club 33.

Also… does Mansion scan for those in wheelchairs and other mobility issues that are given return times? Nobody has answered that yet… that would be an impact as well.

 

[NotTheOne]

That's not what I'm saying. I'm saying the percentage of people with a given disability who generally need DAS. So if it's generally 10% for people with autism (made up number for the purposes of example), and the total number of people with autism rises, that 10% number will also get larger.

True, but not to the point of DAS usage tripling over the last five years.

It certainly appears that a) there are way too many people who believe they are entitled to a DAS simply because they have a disability (diagnosis v. need) and b) Disney has completely dropped the ball over the past few years and handed out DAS like candy to people who should have never had it (mobility issues, stamina issues, etc.)

 

[DisneyHead123]

For what it’s worth, The first link is for the CDC showing an increase in intellectual disabilities diagnosed in children between 2019 and 2021. About 10% increase but absolute numbers was just a 1% change. No change in Autism or ADHD diagnoses.

Products - Data Briefs - Number 473 - July 2023

National Center for Health Statistics

www.cdc.gov

The second link is to a Washington post article noting that Disney reports a 300% increase in DAS requests since 2019.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/travel/2024/04/11/disney-disability-access-service-das/

Now the cdc data is just for kids, but I think it’s probably safe to assume there is more going on than just awareness and better diagnosis. Adult disability diagnoses haven’t increased 3x in the last few years. I would have noticed because I do the diagnosing.

Well first let me say I think we're pretty much in agreement that there are other factors going on. I do think cheating is certainly happening.

That said, I think it's worth noting that autism rates have increased continuously year after year, from 1 in 150 in 1994 to 1 in 36 in 2002:

Data and Statistics on Autism Spectrum Disorder

Summary and table of prevalence of autism spectrum disorder (ASD) in United States children and adol

www.cdc.gov

So there could certainly still be an impact there depending on the age at which people start showing up at the parks. For instance, rates more than doubled between 2002 (1 in 150) and 2010 (1 in 68). So if you have more people between the ages of 22 and 30 showing up for first time visits now (going by the birth years listed on the site,) there may still be an impact. And the same is true of plenty of other conditions, I'm sure, I think rates of many illnesses and developmental issues have increased over time. Mental health diagnoses in particular have risen sharply, I think.

I also feel - and this is completely anecdotal, based more on my perusing neurodiversity themed sub Reddits - that attitudes have changed sharply with the younger generation. Again, anecdotal, but it wouldn't surprise me if there was a fairly dramatic and rapid change there depending on one's age. People who are younger seem much more comfortable asking for accommodations, whereas people who skew older still have more of the "stiff upper lip" mentality.

Again, though, even taking all that into account - I don't see how it could result in a 300% increase. The only reason I feel the need to point out other factors is that I do think there is a growing disability community, with a culture increasingly moving towards encouraging self-advocacy, that Disney will need to accommodate in the future. Not a "300% increase" level community, but I do think the numbers are growing at some level and will continue to grow. I think Disney will need to take that into account moving forward.

 

[NotTheOne]

Well first let me say I think we're pretty much in agreement that there are other factors going on. I do think cheating is certainly happening.

That said, I think it's worth noting that autism rates have increased continuously year after year, from 1 in 150 in 1994 to 1 in 36 in 2002:

Data and Statistics on Autism Spectrum Disorder

Summary and table of prevalence of autism spectrum disorder (ASD) in United States children and adol

www.cdc.gov

So there could certainly still be an impact there depending on the age at which people start showing up at the parks. For instance, rates more than doubled between 2002 (1 in 150) and 2010 (1 in 68). So if you have more people between the ages of 22 and 30 showing up for first time visits now (going by the birth years listed on the site,) there may still be an impact. And the same is true of plenty of other conditions, I'm sure, I think rates of many illnesses and developmental issues have increased over time. Mental health diagnoses in particular have risen sharply, I think.

I also feel - and this is completely anecdotal, based more on my perusing neurodiversity themed sub Reddits - that attitudes have changed sharply with the younger generation. Again, anecdotal, but it wouldn't surprise me if there was a fairly dramatic and rapid change there depending on one's age. People who are younger seem much more comfortable asking for accommodations, whereas people who skew older still have more of the "stiff upper lip" mentality.

Again, though, even taking all that into account - I don't see how it could result in a 300% increase. The only reason I feel the need to point out other factors is that I do think there is a growing disability community, with a culture increasingly moving towards encouraging self-advocacy, that Disney will need to accommodate in the future. Not a "300% increase" level community, but I do think the numbers are growing at some level and will continue to grow. I think Disney will need to take that into account moving forward.

I think Disney is already doing that by limiting DAS. AQR and rider switch will certainly cut down on the number of people in the LL, as will limiting the number of people on the DAS. If the number of people who meet Disney's new criteria continue to grow at rate that clogs up LLs, look for Disney to cut the DAS party size down to DAS user plus one, and perhaps tighten the criteria even more.

 

[TrojanUSC]

This is because all the ques are different, they expet different levels of investment from guests. Also all DAS users are different. There is no one accommodation that will blanket cover all guests, all disabilities and all ride ques. Therefore Disney has a few different accommodations in place at different rides for different needs; which I think is reasonable.

Except this isn’t what’s happening. There is a lack of training which is leading to people getting told different things at different rides for the same need and how these processes work.

 

[TrojanUSC]

My take is that there are:

1. Genuine rises in the rates of disabilities

2. Big increases in disability awareness with the advent of the internet (I frequent parent support boards sometimes and a very common theme is that parents get diagnosed as neurodiverse after their child is, because they simply didn't recognize the symptoms. Many people have a big "Aha!" moment about quirky behavior that has been in their family for a long time.)

3. A different attitude about disabilities. I grew up in the 80s where it wasn't that uncommon for broken bones to get missed because parents told kids to stop whining, they weren't taking them to the doctor for "every little thing". Kids with milder issues were often just labeled problem children and left to languish. Now support is much more plentiful.

Having said that - I do think that cheating is probably going on as well. I was at a local festival recently and paid for a wristband (for certain paid attractions) for my son, who was walking around with his dad. I was exasperated because they wouldn't just hand me the wristband, they made me go locate my son and bring him back so they could personally put it on. The woman was apologetic and explained it's because people will try to make the wristbands big so they can slip them on and off and use them for multiple people. That never would have occurred to me but it just reminded me that yeah, that kind of thing is everywhere. It's why Target only lets you use self-checkout at certain times now.

Just because there’s a rise in disability awareness doesn’t mean there is a rise 3-fold in the last three years of people who simply can’t wait in queues.

Cheating was going on and was the probably at least 50% of the DAS passes issued. That’s not to say all of these people lied about having illnesses but many were lying about their anxiety or IBS being so crippling they couldn’t still wait in line.

 

[Vegas Disney Fan]

We just got back from a 3 day trip to Disneyland and have decided we’re not renewing our keys. We decided not to use DAS and it was miserable, we didn’t get to the parks until 1pm Wed and only managed 3 rides, 1 in the afternoon and 2 more after sundown. We caved and renewed DAS Thursday morning and we still only managed 5 rides before the heat sent us back to the hotel and 2 more rides after returning after sundown, we did rope drop again this morning and managed 5 rides before we left at noon again.

There’s just no way we can justify the cost of the Disney parks without DAS, it sucks but it is what it is, looks like cruises, Europe, and road trips will get our vacation dollars from now on.

 

[Chi84]

We just got back from a 3 day trip to Disneyland and have decided we’re not renewing our keys. We decided not to use DAS and it was miserable, we didn’t get to the parks until 1pm Wed and only managed 3 rides, 1 in the afternoon and 2 more after sundown. We caved and renewed DAS Thursday morning and we still only managed 5 rides before the heat sent us back to the hotel and 2 more rides after returning after sundown, we did rope drop again this morning and managed 5 rides before we left at noon again.

There’s just no way we can justify the cost of the Disney parks without DAS, it sucks but it is what it is, looks like cruises, Europe, and road trips will get our vacation dollars from now on.

I can tell you for a fact our family wouldn’t visit without Genie+/ILLs. And that adds so much to the cost.

 

[DisneyHead123]

Just because there’s a rise in disability awareness doesn’t mean there is a rise 3-fold in the last three years of people who simply can’t wait in queues.

Nobody said there was. Not sure why I keep getting this comment, if people only skim the first part of my comment or what.